Radar tactics and range VERY variable detection of incoming strikes in this AAR

[Cavalry Corp]

Does radar extend more than one hex? In this report the JAp raid was detected 120 miles and the Allied raid 40 miles ( later 120) - why????

In a game could you have radar equiped TF around a CV TF to add to the range, help strikes CAP etc ?

In my recent game AUG 42 Japs lost all three CV,CV,CVL in Guadalcanal to the Enterprise ( who had reacted , the other two CV TF did not and wree3 or 4 hexes behind) who shot down all the incoming planes while the Jap CAP ( 60% = 60 zero) seemed never to arrive in time.

Then this was compounded by the Saratoga and Wasp Strikes but it also seemed that some CAP came from them but they were 3 or 4 hexes away??.

So please advise some more detail on radar , was this the cause ? How good is Jap radar, the CVL did not have it??

I am very confused about the tactics that could be used looking at this AAR , appreciate any comments ( I was the allied BTW )

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 26, 42
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Morning Air attack on TF, near Munda at 111,136

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet. ( WHY ONLY 40 MILES - I THINK THIS KILLED THE JAPS)
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23



Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 51
TBF-1 Avenger x 13


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 14 destroyed, 10 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1
CV Shokaku



Aircraft Attacking:
10 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
11 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes



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Morning Air attack on TF, near Munda at 111,136

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet. ( STILL ALMOST NO CAP)
Estimated time to target is 47 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 18
SBD-3 Dauntless x 33
TBF-1 Avenger x 15


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 2 destroyed, 13 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CS Chitose
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
17 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
15 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
13 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Shokaku...


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Morning Air attack on TF, near Munda at 111,136

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5



Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 18
TBF-1 Avenger x 15


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 2 destroyed, 11 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Hamakaze
CA Tone
CS Chitose
DD Tokitsukaze
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Arashi
DD Nowaki



Aircraft Attacking:
17 x SBD-3 Dauntless bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
14 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Shokaku...
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Zuikaku...








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Morning Air attack on TF, near Rennell Island at 111,141

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
B5N1 Kate x 12
D3A2 Val x 26



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 32


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
B5N1 Kate: 4 destroyed
D3A2 Val: 11 destroyed, 4 damaged


Allied Ships
CV Enterprise



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A2 Val diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 7 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (2 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers



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Morning Air attack on TF, near Rennell Island at 112,143

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 52 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
B5N1 Kate x 11



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 31


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
B5N1 Kate: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 25 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
13 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers



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Morning Air attack on TF, near Munda at 111,136

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes


Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 14
B-17E Fortress x 3


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 15000 feet *
Naval Attack: 4 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

Carrier support unable to supply air cover.....
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVL Ryujo...


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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Russell Islands at 111,137

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 7


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes



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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Russell Islands at 111,137

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes



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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Russell Islands at 111,137

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 47 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 39
SBD-3 Dauntless x 30
TBF-1 Avenger x 6


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 5 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chikuma
DD Nowaki



Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
9 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
14 x SBD-3 Dauntless bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Shokaku...


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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Russell Islands at 111,137

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 4



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15
SBD-3 Dauntless x 25
TBF-1 Avenger x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Tone
DD Isokaze
CA Chikuma, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Hatsukaze
CVL Ryujo, and is sunk
DD Hamakaze



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x SBD-3 Dauntless diving from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
3 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Shokaku...
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Chikuma...
Ryujo dead in the water ......
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVL Ryujo...


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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Rennell Island at 112,140

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3
D3A2 Val x 12



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 8 destroyed


Allied Ships
CV Enterprise



CAP engaged:
VF-6 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers



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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Rennell Island at 112,143

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3
B5N1 Kate x 6



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 17


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N1 Kate: 4 destroyed




CAP engaged:
VF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-71 with F4F-4 Wildcat (3 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes

[ADB123]

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Hmmm - 1942? One would have to suppose that someone on the ground or in a ship spotted the attack flying overhead and radioed a report.

[bklooste]

What was the Fatigue of your zero units ? You were pretty unlucky though your strikes went in under much heaver weather.

[Cavalry Corp]

In answer to the above


I was the US

Would fatigue have played a part , i know if i was tired I would still fly - not saty in bed !!

The hexes in between were all water

Cav

[TheElf]

The japanese don't start the Grand campaign with any radar devices. In other scenarios it is hit and miss as to whether they come equipped.

In 1942, it is unlikely that any of them will have anything other than a the "visual Search Doctrine" device. This device replicates the IJN doctrine of a widely dispersed ring of pickets that visually detected raids, then signaled to the fleet the raids presence, by opening up with AAA. At midway the IJN CVTF did not have an integrated radar system.

120 is a bit rangy for a CXAM radar, but on a good day it was possible. The weakness of the CXAM was not it's detection range, but it's ability to discern altitude, raid size, and discriminating friend from foe.

[spence]

In 1942, it is unlikely that any of them will have anything other than a the "visual Search Doctrine" device. This device replicates the IJN doctrine of a widely dispersed ring of pickets that visually detected raids, then signaled to the fleet the raids presence, by opening up with AAA. At midway the IJN CVTF did not have an integrated radar system.

On September 1, 1945 the IJN still did not have an integrated radar system but they were keeping some otherwise unemployed O-4s,-5s and -6s busy studying up on how such a system might be organized.

Even when individual IJN ships had radar no formal method of making use of the information gained or passing it between ships (like to a TF commander) was ever devised.

Detection of an incoming raid at 120 miles range by either side in 1942 was certainly unlikely unless a scout plane stumbled into an inbound raid. For the IJN to do it any other way is pure fantasy. The dispersed ring of visually searching escorts deployed about 30 km from the center of the CVTF. They might detect a large inbound raid another 30 km beyond that in clear weather. So the detection at 40 miles cited above was really just about as good as it could ever get for the KB of 1942 IRL.

The Japanese depended much more completely on maintaining a standing patrol on CAP. According to "Shattered Sword" the carrier's fighter squadron was organized into "watches" which were cycled through CAP duties. The "watches" varied in size from 2 to 3 planes seemingly without rhyme or reason which would tend to indicate they did not have tactical significance but were rather arbitrary administrative divisions (sort of along the lines of the routine steaming watches aboard ship). Since cycling CAP required a clear flight deck that could (and at Midway DID) impact on KBs ability to organize an offensive strike while under attack.

[michaelm75au]

While radar can have a range in excess of the 40NM hex, it does not extend outside the hex.

Instead, if the radar has a range of more than 40NM, it gets a number of extra chances to detect the raid equal to the number of hexes it could have reached. (range of 120NM would get 3 chances to detect raid, while a 40NM radar only the one).

[Cavalry Corp]

So actually I am still confused as to how the game is treating radar.

Some clarity would be nice in the future
...
Cav

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: cavalry

So actually I am still confused as to how the game is treating radar.

Some clarity would be nice in the future
...
Cav

Radar detects Airplanes. The longer the range the sooner it does so. The higher the effect the more accurate the data and the better your CAP will perform. There really isn't much more to it.