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Case Blue - 9/6/2009 9:18:14 AM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		I started work on convertíng parts of the boardgame "Case Blue" to Advanced Tactics.

Case Blue is one of the biggest boardgames out there with 10 maps, 3 rulebooks and 14! Countersheets.

Link to the boardgame here

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/29285

Might, with his permission, use a an altered version of Captain Crufts SFT list from his ostfront scenario but with my new NATO counters instead than the generic SFTsymbols (actually my new natocounters are from the Case Blue Boardgame anyway.

Link to use of NATO counters here

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2199822


So far i have started work on the map (30 % done). Its 125*105 big. And also started on altering Crufts SFT list (40 % done). Unfortunatly there isnt any naval units in his list, so there might be some work recreating the ships again.

For graphics i will use a combination of boardgamemod rails, major river & background colour, realist urban, and generic forest, swamp etc. There will be railroad, road and makeshift roads.

This will probably be one of my larger scenarios so far. (apart from the Afghanistan scenario). The afghanistan scenario took 3 months. I estimate this will take 1 month 2 weeks (if i dont give up)

Here is a screenshot of the mapwork so far. Sprites for roads (red) might possibly be replaced with realist roads. I use them in the process for visibility






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/6/2009 9:41:21 AM >

_____________________________

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http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc
Post #: 1
RE: Case Blue - 9/6/2009 9:46:54 AM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Making a map with 120*105 hexes is 12 600 hexes to fill in. Its a lot of work but i do feel symphaty for Captain Cruft in his atempt to make a 300*300 hexes. Thats 90 000! hexes.

I guess his map will cover my map at the same scale. My scenario will be mainly on battalion-division level. With Armycorps & Army HQs.

Here is a screenshot of the map im going after.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 2
RE: Case Blue - 9/6/2009 1:02:51 PM   
british exil


Posts: 524
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Münster Germany
Status: offline 		Ahhhh!

A new russian campaign. You'll probably have Germany as human and Soviets as AI?

And you're kidding us with your reckoning of 1 month 2 weeks, right?

Will be keeping an eye open for further developments.



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Post #: 3
RE: Case Blue - 9/6/2009 1:03:41 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Here is an updated map with the Caucasus mountains mostly added.

You can see where work is mostly to be done. Ive done crimea, caucasus mountains and the northern and western edge. So what remains is mostly the middle and the east.

After ive done with the map im going to upload it to the scenariobank/my website so that people can take the map (if they want to) and make their own scenarios on it.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/6/2009 1:05:58 PM >

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

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Post #: 4
RE: Case Blue - 9/6/2009 1:09:43 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		British:

There are a lot of design desicions to be made. So i dont know how i will make it. Hopefully it will be AI capable (its mostly land fighting). But i will see.

Actually the work ive shown it 1,5 half days work and Cruft made the SFT and the graphics are done so its the placement of units, events and production that will take the time. So 1 month 2 weeks isnt that hard. But when i think about it i will be gone for 3-4 weeks on courses and trips to Riga and Rome, so it might take a little longer.

Feel free to make suggestions on anything. I am really tired of these huge reinforcement lists, so any suggestions for a nice simple way to simulate production is very welcome.

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 5
RE: Case Blue - 9/6/2009 1:14:19 PM   
Captain Cruft

 

Posts: 2122
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		Looks good. Is it 10km per hex?

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 6
RE: Case Blue - 9/6/2009 5:33:44 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Captain: To be honest i am not sure of the scale. The map i used doesnt have any markings. If you look at the rulebook for "the operational combat series" of MPP it states that their maps are either 2,5 miles or 5 miles /hex.

Sorry not being able to give any better answers.

Map is starting to be finished. I have a couple of second thoughts about the road hexes.

Here is a screenshot of the "more or less"-finished map.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 7
RE: Case Blue - 9/6/2009 9:45:50 PM   
Alan Sharif

 

Posts: 152
Joined: 8/1/2001
From: UK.
Status: offline 		Looks.....................FABULOUS!

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A Sharif

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Post #: 8
RE: Case Blue - 9/7/2009 5:54:04 PM   
Widell


Posts: 775
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline 		I think Vic should get Grymme involved as an official scenario maker for AT and/or the next release! I am sooo impressed by the output he (Grymme) is able to maintain! My "real" computer has a toasted motherboard, so I'm stuck with my Eee = No gaming right now :-( but every time I look at the new ideas and projects from Grymme (and other too btw) I feel like designing on my own humble projects again.....

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OTWG - The Open Source Wargame Project - Current release 0.1.3 - Want to help? Let me know!
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Post #: 9
RE: Case Blue - 9/7/2009 7:46:43 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Widell. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am not sure it would be a good solution. There is a difference between doing what you feel lika and start & quit as you feel like it and seriously working on a scenario that you have to start and finish and dont have the option to choose yourself. But to be honest i have thought about it. We will see.

As for the scenario. I am working on a small introductary scenario that only uses a part of the map. Kharkov (its six rounds long in the boardgame).

I am sure there will be hundreds of small errors in the map (i am already starting to see difference between the boardgame map and my map (my map seem to be a little smaller. Really irritating).

Here is a small screenshot of the german setup.

The 42 strength inf units are inf divisions broken down into regiments. The 166 units are whole infantry divisions. The megastack depicted is an panzer division with 2 pz bat, 2 mot inf reg, 1 recon bat, 1 art reg and 1 antitank bat. Also shown is various Security units.

Basicly

Divisions will have ca 80 inf.
Regiments ca 26 inf
Battalions ca 10 inf.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/7/2009 7:50:03 PM >

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to Widell)
Post #: 10
RE: Case Blue - 9/7/2009 8:12:42 PM   
Captain Cruft

 

Posts: 2122
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		Hey, those are real tanks!

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 11
RE: Case Blue - 9/8/2009 2:51:33 PM   
gre81


Posts: 33
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		Looks great! Sure would like to use those Nato symbols.

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 12
RE: Case Blue - 9/8/2009 4:56:12 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Captain Crufts SFT set is really great. It does mean a little bit extra work so use someone elses masterfile though. Yesterday i switched of a 120+ events, changed regimecolours to peoplecolours etc. Also sometimes its a little bit dificult to know the strenghts of different SFTs when you havent been involved in making them.

Gre81: The pack of NATOsymbols are downloadable directly from my website under the section "other bits & pieces for the game", so feel free to use them.

http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Have a lot of work at my genuine work, so modding & gaming is temporarily haulted for a couple of days.

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/8/2009 5:00:32 PM >

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to gre81)
Post #: 13
RE: Case Blue - 9/8/2009 7:04:22 PM   
Widell


Posts: 775
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grymme
Widell. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am not sure it would be a good solution. There is a difference between doing what you feel lika and start & quit as you feel like it and seriously working on a scenario that you have to start and finish and dont have the option to choose yourself. But to be honest i have thought about it. We will see.


One solution would be to simply incorporate the scenarios that have been released and approved through the Scenario Bank and include them in the vanilla game. That's the strategy TOAW has used since it "came to Matrix" (maybe before that too?) and it's a huge + for TOAW since it has a huge amount of scenarios ready to go from the start of the game = No need to d/l and deal with installs etc..... OK, I'm hijacking your scenario thread here, so I'll rest my case for now. Still hope you can contribute to future releases .

_____________________________

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OTWG - The Open Source Wargame Project - Current release 0.1.3 - Want to help? Let me know!
Wiki in the Pacific - WitP Wiki

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 14
RE: Case Blue - 9/9/2009 1:30:22 AM   
Captain Cruft

 

Posts: 2122
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		I never really understood the regimecolour versus peoplecolour thing, so once I got the units displaying how I wanted I left it alone.

As to the SFT strengths, they are inevitably experimental, but everything is in the right order. A King Tiger is much better than a Pz-II etc. What I basically did was start with a copy of Light Tank for everything I considered a light tank, then I incremented or decremented the parameters. Ditto Medium and Heavy.

To be honest I did struggle with this a bit since the game engine allows a gnat (e.g. a machine gun) to kill an elephant (e.g. any and all tanks). The chances of this happening are small, but the lack of hard/soft factors does make it a bit tricky. Feel free to play around with it all, it is nothing like what I would consider tested.

(in reply to Widell)
Post #: 15
RE: Case Blue - 9/9/2009 4:33:31 AM   
gre81


Posts: 33
Joined: 2/17/2008
Status: offline 		Where do I unzip the nato markers to?

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Post #: 16
RE: Case Blue - 9/9/2009 11:33:50 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 1902
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

....
To be honest I did struggle with this a bit since the game engine allows a gnat (e.g. a machine gun) to kill an elephant (e.g. any and all tanks). The chances of this happening are small, but the lack of hard/soft factors does make it a bit tricky. Feel free to play around with it all, it is nothing like what I would consider tested.



Really? Can't you just set the attack points of the MG vs Armour to zero? If you want different effects against different armour you'd need to create a different class for each type of armour then set the MG attack points vs each to get the results you want.... I think....

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(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 17
RE: Case Blue - 9/10/2009 1:16:12 AM   
Captain Cruft

 

Posts: 2122
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		I seem to remember that if you set the attack points versus any class to be zero then the SFT will not attack anything at all. Something like that.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 18
RE: Case Blue - 9/10/2009 6:10:50 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Widell: No problem. I sometimes hijack threads myself.

Captain Cruft. No problem. Your mod is just great. But there will always be implementingproblems. But instead of doing 200hs work finding all the SFTs and descriptions i can do 20hs work adapting it to my scenario.

Gre81. Its a little tricky. Open the folder somewhere in the AT folder. Create a new scenario in the editor then go into the editor and then in the SFT screen you go to each SFT and assign each counter individually. After you are done asigning it you save the scenario as a Masterfile. Then when you start a random game you just switch the file.

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

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Post #: 19
RE: Case Blue - 9/10/2009 6:16:50 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		On another note. I am thinking about a way to crudely simulate the use of oil and artillery supply in the game.

The way i am thinking of simulating oil is like this. The map will be divided into areas, roughly following the ones in Case Blue boardgame (12 or so). Then each round each player recieves a number of oil (something like 4-5 of them). Then each player gets an actioncard that places a oil SFT in their supply place. These oil SFTs can be strategicly transfered into different places on the map. Then when the oil is placed in the right direction the player plays an actioncard that checks if there is an oil SFT in that map part. If there is then all motorized units movement type is set to wheeled. Playing the actioncard also removes the oil SFT from that map section. If the actioncard is not played or there is no oil in that map section that SFT type will instead have the movement type "out of oil" (very crappy). The same for airplanes.

Also, owning Maikop and Grozny oilfields yield an extra oil.


Any thoughts or suggestions? All is welcome.

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 20
RE: Case Blue - 9/10/2009 7:33:12 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Actually the sollution i proposed above doesnt seem so practical. I would have to mutate the SFTs of all wheeled vehicels. thats something like 70 SFTs that has to be mutated. A lot of work and connections.

Hmmm... any other ideas how to simulate use of oil?

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

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Post #: 21
RE: Case Blue - 9/10/2009 7:53:23 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 1082
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		Hypothetically, oil should affect machinery based transport and general production. Owning certain hexes should allow for increases in either of those. Hows that for a start ?


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Post #: 22
RE: Case Blue - 9/10/2009 8:13:42 PM   
british exil


Posts: 524
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Münster Germany
Status: offline 		What about bonus points? Enough oil- maybe an Army group gets extra AP? But I think it would be hard to programm.
The more oil you have the further your mobile units can travel.

The oil fields at Grosny and Maikop need to be an incentive enough for the Germans to want to reach them.It's a long way to go just for a few supply points.

Maybe a big pp stack? Or Germany receives a small Army Group, similar to Russia41 when the SU gets it's Shock Armies. Maybe similar to the Shock Armies but in form of SS divisions.

Just a thought or two.

_____________________________

"There is no petrol in Berlin this week. Reichmarshal Goering has sent all his uniforms to the cleaners."

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 23
RE: Case Blue - 9/10/2009 8:53:10 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Well, the scenarios will be more operational than strategic. So i am more trying to capture the feeling of tanks running out of oil than them not being produced.

what i have so far.

The map is divided into nine different regions. Kherson, Crimea, Kharkov, Caucasus Mountain, Stalingrad region, Trans Volga, Don Steppes, Far south etc.

At the start of the round all tanks have movement group GUN and have the description "LOW ON FUEL"

Each round each player recieves a number of oil reinforcement action cards (germans recieve 2 for example).

By playing one of the oil reinforcement cards an oil reinforcement SFT appears in certain locations Kherson for germany for example. This oil reinforcement can be strategicly transfered to different locations on the map.


When you have got the oil reinforcement in the map area where you want your tanks to me movable (Kharkov for example) you play an "fuel Kharkov Region" actioncard. This actioncard mutates all tank SFTs in that particulare region to another different SFT that is exactly the same except it has the normal movement group and doesnt have the "low on fuel" designation. Playing this actioncard also removes all oil on the map (so you would have to play out the oil reinforcements one at a time, this is the one limitation of the system i can find out right now)

The next turn all tanks are again low on fuel, new oil reinforcement cards are added, shipped out, used up etc.

The fun thing would be that each round each player would recieve maybe only 2-3 oil reinforcement cards (+1 if control oilfields). So to which region would you direct your oil supply? And if a group gets cut of somewhere (did someone say Stalinggrad?) it would be pretty difficult to transfer the oil there :)

The bad things include. A system with areas is clumsy, AI will not be able to use it, people will play out all their reinforcement oil and then get pissed when it all dissapears when they hit the first reinforcement button :)


I am testing an event. The crux is that i have only converted 2 SFTs of the 70 that need to be converted, but it seems to work fine.

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/10/2009 9:04:16 PM >

_____________________________

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http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 24
RE: Case Blue - 9/10/2009 10:10:29 PM   
british exil


Posts: 524
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Münster Germany
Status: offline 		If I understand right, and you play your cards wrong you could have an entire Pzr Gruppe sat idle in the steppe because they were not refueled. Having to wait till the next turn to be refueled, unless Ivan manages to cut them of then they are doomed.

Sounds evil.

But what about producing tankers, lorries that can transport fuel? They could follow a Pzr Armee. Of course these could also run out of fuel, once they have unloaded their cargo.

Your idea would make the supply side of AT very very interesting

_____________________________

"There is no petrol in Berlin this week. Reichmarshal Goering has sent all his uniforms to the cleaners."

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Post #: 25
RE: Case Blue - 9/11/2009 1:11:00 AM   
Captain Cruft

 

Posts: 2122
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		I like the idea of the different "oil" and "non-oil" SFTs. However, as you say the area-based mutation thing is clunky and also a lot of work setting the areaslot codes.

The big problem with SFT mutation, which is inherently a very powerful idea, is that you cannot see what is there before doing the mutate. In fact I would suggest that this is the biggest single problem with the editor. You generally cannot read something before you modify it.

(in reply to british exil)
Post #: 26
RE: Case Blue - 9/11/2009 7:10:35 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		British: Thats exactly what i am after. And maybe to do the same with artillery shells. But we will see.

Captain: I agree. As powerfull as the editor is, it still has its limitations. But to be honest. Most things can be done. It just takes huge amount of time sometimes. Hmm.. My romanian HQs arent getting any supply. Have you done something special with peoples or something else that could cause that effect?

I have made an upload. The map (complete with graphics etc) is uploaded to this location together with an early version of the Kharkov scenario. The biggest problem i am having with the Kharkkov scenario right now is that combat is "too deadly". Its not very fun to place 7000 points of armies to see 20 % die in the first round of the game. Any ideas on how to limit losses and instead have units retreat a little earlier? (puttin on 25 % retreat, but still)


http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod/Bits%20and%20pieces/Bits%20and%20pieces.html

Its 27 mb so its almost to big for my webpage (i only have 50 mb of webspace). So i will most likely tak it down after a while. Also, as of now you need to have Ostfront installed. I will rerout the 300 or so SFT pictures and symbols, but havent done it yet.


< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/11/2009 7:12:37 PM >

_____________________________

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http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 27
RE: Case Blue - 9/11/2009 7:50:40 PM   
Captain Cruft

 

Posts: 2122
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		Yes doing lots of data entry in the editor is definitely not fun. The UI needs to be much more keyboard-driven.

There is no reason any HQs should not get supply due to anything I've done.

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 28
RE: Case Blue - 9/11/2009 8:05:14 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1196
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Its all me i found out. I probably placed soviet regime units in there somewhere. I hope it doesnt come across like i am complaining, i really am not. There is just a lot of questions :)

To be honest i am not sure i have the stomach to complete an Case Blue campaign scenario. I placed 500+ units for the 6 round Kharkov introductary scenario. Then there is the "Edge of the World" scenario that is 19 rounds long. Then there is the different campaigns. Placing 1000+ units for them and 1000-2000 reinforcements could break anyone. Any volunteers?

Its especially not very fun to put in the different division names, but its very rewarding when the scenario is finished.


Here is a screenshot of the Kharkov pocket from the "small" 6 round introductary scenario "Kharkov, failed offensive".

Among things seen are:
- Infantry units
- Police Regiments
- Mountain Divisions
- Cavalry divisions
- Tank & armed brigades
- mech brigades
- Ski brigade
- recon units
- Artillery brigades
- Assault gun battalions

etc ad naseaum




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/11/2009 8:15:09 PM >

_____________________________

My Advanced Tactics Mod page
http://web.comhem.se/olvmyr/At%20mod%20page.html

Vietnam War, Afghan War, War of the Triple Alliance, Operation McArthur, Battle for An Loc, Comrades in Arms, Battle of lake Trastimere, First Punic War etc

(in reply to Captain Cruft)
Post #: 29
RE: Case Blue - 9/11/2009 9:08:57 PM   
tweber

 

Posts: 1007
Joined: 6/27/2007
Status: offline 		Looks very impressive.  Some thoughts that may make the programing easier without too much realism sacrifice:

- For rear units, you could code in their placement with loops, predefined units, and unit adds.  On the plus side, you could lay out large groups.  On the down side, you do not get to differentiate the names very finely.

- For oil, I might use the movement modifiers on armored movement types with turn checks.  It is rather simple. 

Question for you - Do you have a decent order of battle of the Soviets after Kharkov (say around July 28th or so)?

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 30
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