Matrix Games

• OOB:
  
  http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/lightweapons/machineguns/vickersmachinegun.htm
  
  

  quote:
  
  www.canadiansoldiers.com
  
  "During the Second World War, machinegun support was again provided by specialist units. Upon mobilization, one machine gun battalion was assigned to each brigade of infantry; by the time the units went into action, only one machine gun battalion was assigned to each Division. Three machine gun companies, with three machine gun platoons of four Vickers guns each, as well as a heavy mortar company, made up the MG battalion.
  
  In Korea, Vickers Guns were assigned directly to the infantry battalions, in a specialist Vickers platoon. "

  
  
  "Divisional MG Battalion 1944-45":
  http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/org-infdivww2.htm
  
  
  alternative Version:
  "Divisional MG (Support) Battalion"
  http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/org-divsptbn.htm .
  
  The latter was a formation with 3 "Support Groups", with each group consisting of 1 MG Coy only, 1 AA company (16 x 20mm Oerlikon?) and 1 Mortar company with only 2 mortar platoons. This setup was rather unusual and disliked by Div. Commanders + troops, it seems.
  
  
• Number of MMGs:
  
  A MG battalion (1943-1946) had 3 MG Coys (with a total of 9 MG platoons) and 1 Mortar Coy (4 platoons). Each Bn had 36 MMGs.
  
  
• Range:
  
  The Vickers MMG had a range of up to 4500 yards (!).
  
  Let me quote the British Small Arms Manual, page 9:
  
  

  quote:
  
  ORIGINAL: "SMALL ARMS MANUAL" by Brigadier J. A. Barlow, S.A.C., The West Yorkshire Regt. and Lt.-Col. R.E.W. Johnson - the London Rifle Brigade. Printed and issued in 1944.
  
  "The Medium Machine-Gun.
  
  Since this weapon is normally mounted on a heavy tripod its accuracy can be relied upon at ranges considerably greater than those attained by the L.M.G. or the rifle. In the case of the Vickers gun this increase in accurate range is enhanced by the fact that special (Mark VIII) ammunition is used which makes it possible to employ the gun in a miniature artillery role at ranges up to 4,500 yards.
  The medium machine gun should, therefore, not be wasted on short-range tasks which can be undertaken with L.M.Gs. (or, even by riflemen), but should be used in bursts of not less than 20 rounds, the length of burst increasing up to about 30 rounds."

  
  
  Note: The owner of this Manual added some interesting notes on the last pages of the manual ("Notes" section), a collection of penetration values for different small arms / calibres.
  
  You can download the manual here: http://www.badongo.com/file/7513521
  
  

  quote:
  
  www.canadiansoldiers.com
  
  "In addition to direct fire, Vickers Guns were often used indirectly; this type of fire was first used in the First World War. During Operation VERITABLE in Feb 1945, Vickers Guns added their fire to the "pepperpot" supporting fire that was used during the largest artillery operation of the Second World War. Vickers Guns had also "thickened" the barrages leading up to the assault on Vimy Ridge in April 1917."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

The emphasis here is on practical and effective fire rather than on theoretical. Just as most MGs had a cyclic rate of fire that was in the thousands and yet only carried 500 to 1000 rounds, thus their eff rate of fire was significantly less.

quote:


"The Machine Gun platoon of the Divisional Machine Gun Battalion started off as a 15-cwt Truck-borne unit. By the time the small arms manual was printed in 1944, it solely referred to the use of Universal Carrier. The quantity of gun numbers had also decreased in line with the additional efficiency of ammunition supply and the ability for carriers to get closer to the gun positions."

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

Oh and a range of 4000 meters sounds more realistic, imho.

quote:

MMG
Ammunition - Two types - Mk 8z (normal). 44 belts per gun (equals 11,000 rds) are taken into action, making a total of 396,000 rds in the Bn. No reserves are held in the Bn.

B.Z. at 800 yds - 2.7 x 177 yds. B.Z. at 2000 yds - 9.3 x 68 yds.

Has two rates of fire: Normal - 1 belt in 2 mins; Rapid - 1 belt in 1 min.

Max ranges: Mk 8z - 4500 yds; Mk 7 - 2800 yds.

Tactical Employment
(a) Defence
Due to its characteristics, the MMG is primarily a defensive weapon. Normally, the initial grouping for the recce and occupation of a defensive position will be a MG Coy in support of a Bde. Subsequently the MG Bn Comd will co-ordinate the MG layout on the whole front, recommending changes as necessary to the Div Comd.

Main tasks are:

(i) DF tasks - sited to fire in enfilade in front of the FDLs, and in front of reserve locations, special attention being paid to the protection of minefields (range for such task 800-1000 yds approx) and likely lines of approach.

(ii) The destruction of enemy attacks by fire on assembly or forming up areas or advancing troops, especially beyond the range of LMGs. This does not mean that MMGs will necessarily be sited in the OP line; this will depend chiefly on wether they can be spared from the main position.

(iii) Support of counter-attacks.

(iv) Harassing fire.

(v) Mobile reserve.

(b) Attack, re-organisation and consolidation
In mobile operations, the normal grouping will be one Coy in sp of a Bde. For a set-piece Div attack, coys are more likely to be under the MG Bn Comd.

Main tasks are:

(i) Covering fire.

(ii) Flank protection.*

(iii) Assisting to form a fire base.*

*These tasks are defensive tasks in an attack battle.

(c) Speed into action
After PL Comd has received orders - Direct fire (ground action): 20-30 mins. Direct fire (carrier action): 5-10 mins. Indirect fire: 30-40 mins.

4.2" Mortar
Ammunition - Two types - HE (Streamline); Smoke W.P. (Cylindrical). (Both types weigh 20 lbs). 85 bombs per mortar (equals 1360 bombs) are taken into action. A reserve of 540 bombs is held at Coy HQ.

Max range - 4100 yds. Cannot fire at ranges less than 1050 yds.

Platoon (4 Mortars) can produce heavy weight of fire - approx 40 aimed bombs, each weighing 20 lbs, can be fired in one minute.

Tactical Employment
(a) Attack
(i) Neutralisation of targets
Suitable targets are: (a) The objective until the infantry are within the safety limit. (b) Features outside the safety limit to a flank or in depth.

(ii) Opportunity targets, in a pre-selected arc.

(b) Defence
(i) D.F. tasks.

(ii) Support of counter-attacks.

(iii) Harassing fire.

(c) Speed into action
As a general guide 30-40 mins from the time orders are received. Quick action is 5-10 mins.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteOwl

Even a modern day MBT with far superior optics, LRFs and ballistics computers would not have an easy hit out to 4000m.

quote:

How could that be anywhere near effective fire range? Even if the rounds could reach that range, what manner of optics did the crews regularly have that allowed them to hit anything at that range? Not to mention other ballistic factors such as wind, humidity, etc.

If you're talking about using it indirectly, as a form of artillery, fair enough, but then there should be severely reduced lethality and a reluctance to use the ammo that way unless the crews were absolutely flush with it. Machine gun rounds, after all, don't explode...

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMO

What is extremely surprising is the phenominal rate of fire of the 4.2" mortars - one wonders how long it could be maintained though.

Tim

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteOwl

Now, I don't disagree that a modern MBT CAN hit a target out to 4000m, rather that it is not quite the effective range of engagement.

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In that case, if they have the ammunition, no problem, but if they don't have 10000 rounds lying by, with the promise of easy resupply, then I can't see a competent leader allowing his men to blow through a whole lot of ammo real quick that way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Military Pamphlet No. 31, 1940
Notes On The Organization And The Tactical Handling Of Medium Machine Guns, page 8

http://www.badongo.com/file/7009020

"1. []..... In direct fire the fire unit is the section. At ranges in excess of 1,400 yards it will normally be necessary to engage with more than one section.

2. Range. - With accurate range-taking, and the correct application of the fire control rules, medium M.Gs. can fire with effect up to 4,500 yards [4114 meters]. Medium M.Gs. ranges are defined as follows:

• i. Close, up to 800 yards. - The range up to which, on level ground, the trajectory is suffiently flat to hit a standing man at all points between gun and target.
  
• ii. Intermediate, up to 1,400 yards.
  
• iii. Long, over 1,400 yards. - At these ranges two sections will generally be necessary to produce effective fire.

4. Rates of fire. - Medium M.Gs. use two rates of fire - normal and rapid. At these rates they expend a belt of 250 rounds in two minutes and one minute respectively. A "service burst" is 25 rounds under all conditions, except when firing on fixed lines, or at a moving target, when it is 50.

5. Ammunition supply. - M.G. ammunition is factory-packed in expendable belts ready for firing. Sixteen belts are normally brought into action with the gun; in addition, further belts are carried in company and platoon trucks. Ammunition may be dumped to meet expenditure which can be foreseen.

quote:


"6. Duration of fire. - The system of ammunition supply, together with the fact that the barrel is water-cooled, enable the Medium M.G. to keep up a normal rate of fire as long as supplies of water and ammunition continue.

9. Indirect fire. - Medium M.Gs. are capable of engaging a target which is not visible from the gun position, but is visible from an O.P. Flexibility is limited, but concealment is more easily obtained, and the chances of guns being neutralized by enemy artillery is minimised.
In cases where the target is not visible from an O.P., or where it has not been possible to range on it in daylight, the necessary data can be obtained from a 1/25,000 map. The accuracy of map shooting depends chiefly on the accurate pin pointing of the gun position and target on the map. Artillery units, who possess methods of surveying, can often be of assistance in this."

quote:

Now in terms of the game engine, either the AI and the damage code have to get better, so as to distinguish in game if the MMG is fired directly or indirectly, and to allow the AI to make a decision as to when to use indirect fire, or a compromise is made. If it were up to me, in terms of bang for the buck of limited development time, I'd go for the compromise.

quote:

Thanks for an engaging discussion so far :)

quote:

I don't think that lack of ammo was present back then nor do I believe that the MMGs had been deployed with 1000 rounds or less, as the MG Bns were using the Universal carriers in 1944, not trucks, so the carriers could deliver guns and ammo right to the assigned spot (or frontline), and the carriers could hold quite some rounds.

quote:

To almost every man of the Allied armies, the predominant memory of the campaign, beyond the horror of battle, was the astounding efficiency of the supply services. The Americans had always justly prided themselves upon their organization. But for young British soldiers, who had grown up with the legend of the War Office's chronic bungling, and of the Crimea and the Boer War, Second Army's administration in Normandy seemed a miracle. "We were all very agreeably surprised by the efficiency," said Major John Warner of 3rd Recce Regiment. " We always knew that we would receive ammunition, letters, petrol, food." Curiously enough, whatever the command shortcomings of the British Army in France in the First World War, its administration had been a supreme achievement. So it was now, and this contributed enormously to men's faith in their commanders and in final victory. "There was so much materiel at the back", said Alf Lee of the Middlesex Regiment. "Whenever you went to the rear and saw fields packed with petrol tins as high as a house, rows of guns in their canvas covers waiting to come up, huge dumps of shells, you couldn't doubt that we could do it. We would often fire 25,000 rounds from a Vickers gun in a single shoot. Yet we were never short of ammunition."  

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMO

Here's a quote from Overlord, Max Hastings, 1984, p.238 that supports this statement - at least for the Normandy campaign:

quote:

....[] We would often fire 25,000 rounds from a Vickers gun in a single shoot. Yet we were never short of ammunition."  

quote:

However, in BFTB we are only modelling the truck mounted Vickers and not the carrier version.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: New Zealand Electronic Text Centre (NZTEC)

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-27Ba-c11.html#reference-to-fn1-245

27 (Machine Gun) Battalion, chapter 11, page 245

"El Mreir" (July 1942)

"For the assault 6 Brigade was given the support of the whole divisional artillery, a medium regiment and 5 Brigade's mortars and machine guns (4 Company); 18 Battalion was to cover the left flank with mortar and machine-gun fire (from 1 and 2 Companies). ‘This must have been the machine-gunners' night out,’ wrote Newland, ‘some 120,000 rounds being fired in about 3 hours.’ Eight guns of 1 Company and the six of 5 and 6 Platoons (which moved from 4 Company to 1 Company) fired on an enemy-held ridge about two miles south of the depression, and then lifted to maximum range for harassing tasks farther north. At the same time the twelve guns of 4 Company brought down fire on the eastern end of the depression.

Frazer says that prisoners taken after this attack ‘referred to one of these combined shoots as “whispering death”."

quote:

Page 249

"The advance, says Pearse, ‘proved quite a nightmare as apart from the heavy shelling, etc., we had great difficulty in maintaining contact with the infantry who were virtually strangers to us and moved much more rapidly in the darkness through the depressions and minefields encountered. At times we were quite lost. Early in the show we came across Lieut Cliff Rollinson [1 Company] with his Vickers guns lined out in a depression doing what appeared to be a perfect indirect shoot…."

quote:



"Each battalion of 6 Brigade had under its command two Vickers guns from 3 Company mounted on Bren carriers. ‘Before the show,’ says Captain Hains, ‘Brig Clifton asked me if it was possible to mount MMGs on Bren carriers. I thought it was a good idea for some tasks and spent two days fitting one on and trying it out. Quite satisfactory.’ Each carrier had a crew of two machine-gunners and the driver (an infantryman).(1)

(1)Lt Gumbley says: ‘The guns were mounted in the front of the carrier, part of the armour plating having been cut away to allow the gun to be mounted. Once mounted the gun had a very limited traverse, it was certainly mobile but against that it presented a very large target and could only be used for direct fire.’ "

quote:


"During the attack…,’ wrote 28 Battalion's CO, ‘MMGs [2 Platoon] first fired direct flank support for A Coy on the left because that flank was open.’ Later they were given the task of harassing by indirect fire the likely routes of withdrawal or escape for the Germans. ‘After the A Coy inf passed over these routes and after the attack, many enemy casualties, including dead, were discovered among the olive trees.’"

quote:



http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-27Ba-c21.html#name-000842-mention

"During the morning of 31 July, says Halkett, ‘22 Bn had its patrols out trying to locate enemy [positions] preparatory to their next attack. These had progressed as far as prudent, but further information was required. [The CO] called up 3 Coy by W/T and with an improvised code requested fire to be brought in 2 areas. We promised it in 15 minutes and 3 Coy opened up with concentrated fire of 12 Guns. This caused Jerry to cut loose with his spandaus and disclose their positions to the infantry patrols…

‘This shows the pitch to which 3 Coy had brought its training … a standard that was seldom reached, requiring co-operation with the infantry and high standard of signals personnel and of course map shooting.’"

quote:

PAGE 432

"That night (1–2 August) the Division attacked the hilltops which were the last obstacle before Florence. Five infantry battalions, advancing on a narrow front between the Greve River and San Michele, were assisted by creeping artillery barrages, timed concentrations and counter-battery programmes, and by machine-gun fire wherever possible. During the night and the following day 1, 2 and 3 Companies expended over 200,000 rounds (3[rd] Company nearly half of this total) to supplement the artillery and harass the known positions of German mortars and machine guns.

‘The previous support of 3[rd] Coy had been so encouraging to everybody that during this attack 3 Coy expended 94000 rounds,’ says Halkett. ‘We again repeated our closely controlled concentrated fire on Infantry selected targets at times which they stipulated and again we had the satisfaction of hearing the infantry of 22 Bn express their appreciation. Later received a letter of thanks from their Col. which was read to the Coy when they withdrew from the line for a rest.’ "

quote:

ORIGINAL: Museum of the Manchester Regiment

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsgalleries/mom/history/1919-1945

"A new 1st Battalion was formed in June 1942 by the renumbering of the 6 th Territorial Army Battalion as the 1st.

After two years intensive training as a machine-gun battalion the new 1st Battalion, commanded by Lieut Colonel Charles Harrington of the Cheshire Regiment, took part in the invasion of Europe. Bren gun carriers, equipment and men moved on 18 June 1944 from Faversham station to West India Docks in London where all was loaded onto the SS Samneva. The battalion landed at Arromanches on 26 th June, D-Day plus 20, as the Machine Gun Support Battalion of 53 rd (Welsh) Infantry Division."

quote:

Transport- Fighting transport is entirely tracked - MMGs on Universal Carriers, and 4.2" Mortars towed by Lloyd Carriers.

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http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/carriers/uc1.html

"Mk.I* Vickers MG Carrier

A wartime 'publicity' shot of an adapted MkI* in the service of a Canadian Motor Machine Gun Battalion. Note that all lighting and POL racks have been removed and the crew's personal large packs and duffles tied in in their place. Most likely, British or American jerricans have been secured to the back deck.

Note also the tow chain, spare tracking and stowage boxes which have been secured to the front of this carrier. the smoke discharger is visible below and to the left of the gun.

Interesting, too, the choice of helmets by the individual crew members: the corporal in front, and the man behind the Vickers gun both wear the 'carrier' helmet, which is an adaptation of the same helmet used by British and Canadian airborne troops and dispatch riders. The others obviously prefer the more traditional 'pudding bowl' style. Both are equally uncomfortable."

quote:

Medium Machine-gun Carriers
In 1943 the organization of the infantry division underwent one of its periodic convulsions with the creation of the Brigade Support Group. Based on recent experience, there was a desire to increase firepower available at the brigade level with medium (Vickers) machine guns for volume, 4.2in mortars for high explosive and 20mm automatic weapons for low-level anti-aircraft defence and the ability to tackle light armoured vehicles. Army Training Instruction No. 7 provided the details, evidently unaware that to some extent it had just reinvented the wheel.

Universal carriers would play a major part in the new organization, with 30 of them in all in each brigade support group, three of which combined to form a support battalion. Events had virtually gone full circle since these carriers would be modified to carry a Vickers machine gun, and this is where we come in. However, this modified carrier was not identical with the original Machine Gun Carrier: the gun would not be carried in the front of the vehicle but on a mofified mounting fitted to the top of the carrier's engine cover. The medium machine-gun company in the support group was divided into three platoons, each of which was equipped with four carriers armed with machine guns. Each carrier had a four-man crew and 19 factory-packed spools of ammunition, each spool of 250 rounds (4,750 rounds in all). A No. 22 radio was provided for each platoon but whether it was carried in a carrier or not is unclear. Some things did not change. The intention, quite clearly, was to operate the weapon dismounted whenever possible, although it coud be fired from the vehicle in a direct-fire role over the heads of friendly infantry. Firing on the move was not encouraged other than in exceptional circumstances.

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Communications - Basic set is the No.22, which is used for all internal communication. For close liason with infantry each MMG and Mortar platoon has a No.18 set.

quote:

The Machine Gun platoon of the Divisional Machine Gun Battalion started off as a 15-cwt Truck-borne unit. By the time the small arms manual was printed in 1944, it solely referred to the use of Universal Carrier. The quantity of gun numbers had also decreased in line with the additional efficiency of ammunition supply and the ability for carriers to get closer to the gun positions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMO

Just shows what a bit of research can uncover: 4,750 rds per gun from the 'Bren Gun Carrier' reference hasn't taken into account the extra ammo taken by the other four carriers in the MMG platoon and the N0.22 set is quite obviously shown in the platoon commander's carrier (I wonder where the No. 18 set might have been located).

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMO

... if you look at the date, bottom left, it's 1946.