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IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel!

 
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IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out... - 8/20/2009 1:18:50 PM   
JohnDillworth


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I guess I am suffering the same problem is many others have. I am the allies vs. the AI, It is late Spring 42, I have had a few offensive operations, and I am out of fuel in Australia. Lost a bunch of tankers, didn't get enough fuel out of DEI. I have been shipping from Capetown to Perth, and Los Angeles , to Pago-Pago, to Suava, to Noumea, to Sydney, to Brisbane. Had 3 carriers pinned in the Coral Sea with low aircraft and could not close the deal due to lack of fuel. I just don't have enough long range tankers. Have fuel at Pearl, and have taken to shipping it via AK to Pago-Pago. Any other strategies? Seems to evaporate as quick as I get it. I guess since I am low on fuel and carrier aircraft it looks like months of refilling the pipeline. What to do?

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 1:20:00 PM   
Sardaukar


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Very historical. Nimitz was screaming "Tankers, tankers, tankers! until 1944.

In start of the war, one admiral said that "oilers were almost as rare as carriers and few tankers in service were so busy ferrying fuel to Pear Harbor that they could not even train for the task of refuelling warships at sea."

Quite grim picture.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 8/20/2009 1:29:19 PM >


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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 1:23:32 PM   
Flying Tiger

 

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if the aussies could figure out a way to ship fuel overland from perth it would sure help! What is that train line for? Kangaroo skins? Ship some fuel you lazy @#*&^%!!

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 1:28:24 PM   
JohnDillworth


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Yup,  rushed combat troops and aircraft into the area.  Then base forces, built up my ports.  finally figured out subs and convoys and now I am on rationing.  Going to have to reorganize and really get the LA, Pago-Pago, Suava, Noumea route straitened out.  Pull what tankers I have and stick them on regular, escorted runs.  Those shorth range AO's will be usefull here.  Sunk a CV, a CVL and a BB without out ship losses, but lost a lot of aircraft.  MAybe that will slow the AI down until I can rebuild.  Tried not to just roll with the punches but it didn't work out

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 1:49:52 PM   
ny59giants


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From WITP to AE there is now 4 vs 2 options on the TF screen for refueling - Full Refuel, Do Not Refuel, Minimal Refuel, and Tactical Refuel (pg 107 in manual). When you form a transport TF in the USA to go to Pago Pago (for example), set it to either Do Not Refuel or Minimal Refuel. If you leave it to the default setting of Full Refuel, it will do so at Pago Pago. The Do Not Refuel means it will not take on any fuel at Pago Pago and Minimal Refuel means it will refuel just enough to get back to the USA plus 10% at current speed.

A new reality for all Allied players is to protect those TKs from day one. No more allowing them to get close to the front line or transit the shipping lanes without or with minimal escorts.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:01:26 PM   
LST Express


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I'm at the start of Feb 42 and most of my time has been spent hauling fuel and supplies, not fighting the Japs.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:03:10 PM   
Sardaukar


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I have found tankers as prime assets and saving everyone from DEI too, if I can. Temptation to shuttle fuel from Palembang/Batavia/Soerabaja to Perth has been the demise of few, though.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:03:25 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

From WITP to AE there is now 4 vs 2 options on the TF screen for refueling - Full Refuel, Do Not Refuel, Minimal Refuel, and Tactical Refuel (pg 107 in manual). When you form a transport TF in the USA to go to Pago Pago (for example), set it to either Do Not Refuel or Minimal Refuel. If you leave it to the default setting of Full Refuel, it will do so at Pago Pago. The Do Not Refuel means it will not take on any fuel at Pago Pago and Minimal Refuel means it will refuel just enough to get back to the USA plus 10% at current speed.

A new reality for all Allied players is to protect those TKs from day one. No more allowing them to get close to the front line or transit the shipping lanes without or with minimal escorts.


Guilty, Guilty, Guilty, great tips. Goes a long way to explaining my "evaporation"

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:03:27 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I've got large tankers running from the WC to Pearl Harbor and PagoPago, and others from Abadan and Cape Town to Ceylon and Perth.  Getting fuel to the East Coast of Australia is the hard part; fuel moves from Pago Pago and Suva to Noumea but I either have problems finding enough ships to get it to Australia or there just isn't enough to send there anyway.

I've also got continuous AK/TK TF's running from Balikpapan and Surabaya while I've still got them, carrying nothing but fuel down to Darwin and Townsville.  The Horn Island base is invaluable in protecting those convoys heading around NE Australia...

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:07:07 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Oh, also, a word of warning; the AI likes to make raiding TF's of a pair of CL's and some DD's and send them into the area bordered by the Marshalls, Palmyra, Pearl Harbor and PagoPago.  Unless you've got a CA or two with a TF, they'll chew up a couple of DD's or anything smaller and sink your ships. 

That may explain the AI's extreme interest in Baker and Canton, too; if you have those two bases you can spot enemy TF's fairly quickly, without them they can wander around without being spotted until they find a convoy to ravage.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:17:17 PM   
drw61


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At the start I sent all the tankers and as many cargo ships as I could spare with fuel to Sydney. I then started to send them to Noumea and PagoPago after they returned to LA. It helped a little but I'm still short of fuel in Australia.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:17:55 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford
I've also got continuous AK/TK TF's running from Balikpapan and Surabaya while I've still got them, carrying nothing but fuel down to Darwin and Townsville. 


Against the AI you can probably get away with more than one tanker run from these bases, but against a human opponent you're going to lose your tankers. So I'd recommend getting into the habit of only filling your tankers from safer ports like Palembang, Batavia or Soerabaja once as they leave the area, and then not bringing them back.

Use the short legged AKs for shuttling fuel to Darwin and the longer ranged AKs for fuel runs to Perth from the SRA bases. Allied tankers are probably more valuable than allied CVs in 1942, so don't develop bad habits against the AI that will then cost you when you play PBEM.

I'm actually leaning towards shifting my strategy to not even filling them up once before leaving the DEI area, it's just too costly to lose them. Better to be safe and just get the heck out of dodge as fast as possible so you have them around during 1942 when tankers are so rare.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 8/20/2009 2:19:21 PM >


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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:26:16 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford
I've also got continuous AK/TK TF's running from Balikpapan and Surabaya while I've still got them, carrying nothing but fuel down to Darwin and Townsville. 


Against the AI you can probably get away with more than one tanker run from these bases, but against a human opponent you're going to lose your tankers. So I'd recommend getting into the habit of only filling your tankers from safer ports like Palembang, Batavia or Soerabaja once as they leave the area, and then not bringing them back.

Use the short legged AKs for shuttling fuel to Darwin and the longer ranged AKs for fuel runs to Perth from the SRA bases. Allied tankers are probably more valuable than allied CVs in 1942, so don't develop bad habits against the AI that will then cost you when you play PBEM.

I'm actually leaning towards shifting my strategy to not even filling them up once before leaving the DEI area, it's just too costly to lose them. Better to be safe and just get the heck out of dodge as fast as possible so you have them around during 1942 when tankers are so rare.

Jim



Good advice. Allies are not really short of fuel, it's just in wrong places.

Having TF of 6 large Tankers intercepted by IJN CV TF when shuttling fuel from Abadan to Perth was not fun either, so better try to keep eye on what even AI is doing.


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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:44:07 PM   
Zacktar


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Like that old saying goes, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics!

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:46:52 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Having TF of 6 large Tankers intercepted by IJN CV TF when shuttling fuel from Abadan to Perth was not fun either, so better try to keep eye on what even AI is doing.


Personally I think they've made a mistake by limiting the allied tankers so drastically. The net effect is they've hard coded a critical weakness into the game that is very easy to exploit.

Keep all your tankers afloat and moving during 1942, and you'll have just enough fuel in the South and Southwest Pacific regions to resist any Japanese moves. Lose 10 or 20 tankers however, and the allies are doomed.

It is simply impossible to move enough fuel to those regions of the map in enough quantity should you take some significant hits in the tanker fleet. So you won't have the fuel on hand to effectively operate your fleets with, and that gives Japan a free hand to take whatever it wants. And you can forget any counter-offensive in 1943, since you won't have any stockpiles built up.

This is the problem you run into when you try and limit allied production/reinforcements with draconian limits like these. Without the flexibility to respond to non-historical loss numbers, it's a simple matter to break any part of the allied production/reinforcement schedule by focusing Japanese efforts to damage a specific target.

As Japan, I'll be looking to sink as many allied tankers as possible during 1942, screw the allied Carriers they aren't nearly as important as the tankers are now.

There needs to be some way for the allies to respond to difficult situations that develop in game. The ridiculously low replacement pools and under-represented tanker and AK fleets are just too damned restrictive if they suffer high losses. In reality it would have been easy to order more tankers, airframes, tanks, guns, etc. produced if they were needed. But because they weren't needed historically, the allies don't get the capacity to build them that they historically had and easily could have used if needed.

Jim


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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:51:33 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Having TF of 6 large Tankers intercepted by IJN CV TF when shuttling fuel from Abadan to Perth was not fun either, so better try to keep eye on what even AI is doing.


Personally I think they've made a mistake by limiting the allied tankers so drastically. The net effect is they've hard coded a critical weakness into the game that is very easy to exploit.

Keep all your tankers afloat and moving during 1942, and you'll have just enough fuel in the South and Southwest Pacific regions to resist any Japanese moves. Lose 10 or 20 tankers however, and the allies are doomed.

It is simply impossible to move enough fuel to those regions of the map in enough quantity should you take some significant hits in the tanker fleet. So you won't have the fuel on hand to effectively operate your fleets with, and that gives Japan a free hand to take whatever it wants. And you can forget any counter-offensive in 1943, since you won't have any stockpiles built up.

This is the problem you run into when you try and limit allied production/reinforcements with draconian limits like these. Without the flexibility to respond to non-historical loss numbers, it's a simple matter to break any part of the allied production/reinforcement schedule by focusing Japanese efforts to damage a specific target.

As Japan, I'll be looking to sink as many allied tankers as possible during 1942, screw the allied Carriers they aren't nearly as important as the tankers are now.

There needs to be some way for the allies to respond to difficult situations that develop in game. The ridiculously low replacement pools and under-represented tanker and AK fleets are just too damned restrictive if they suffer high losses. In reality it would have been easy to order more tankers, airframes, tanks, guns, etc. produced if they were needed. But because they weren't needed historically, the allies don't get the capacity to build them that they historically had and easily could have used if needed.

Jim



Well, you can ship fuel with your AKs in a pinch. It just is not as efficient, since they have lower cargo efficiency (modelling the shipping fuel in drums in cargo space). I do it a lot in my Scen 6 (Dec8 start) campaign when lacking tankers.


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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:54:10 PM   
John Lansford

 

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The USN has enough AO's (and there's a couple in Australia too) to refuel a couple of CV or SW TF's, but you've got to protect them like they were made of gold.  I keep mine well back from the shooting (no Andy I'm not telling you where they are) but they allow my TF's to have a larger radius of operation than they normally would if I had to use a base to refuel from.

They can also carry fuel to bases if you don't need them for operations, but they get my heaviest available protection so those pesky IJN CL/DD TF's can't get them...

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:56:47 PM   
Brad Hunter


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The logistics system is a game in itself. Very judicious use of fueling and replacements is a must. SEAC can be fueled from Adaban, and supplied from Cape Town. SWPAC can be fueled and supplied from Cape Town and the US. You can send tanker convoys round-trip to Australia from LA with the "Do not Fuel" option on. Also, remember that your xAKs can cross-load fuel. Make sure that you start the game with "No Replacements" on - you can then make sure that only your front line units are receiving replacements.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 2:58:03 PM   
Shark7


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That is definately going to put the brakes on a late 43 over-run by the Allies then. Will be nice for a change.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:01:53 PM   
JohnDillworth


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Ugh, it gets worse.  I am in May 42.  My next reinforcement tanker is 67 days away.  A total of 9, count em, 9 for the rest of the year!  43 appears to be a bonanza, but I am a long way from there.  How efficient are AF's in hauling fuel?  I have no choice now but to trim my lines, halt offensive operations and spend months building fuel stocks.  Oh, and those 3 tankers in the auto convoy pool? I am taking those back

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:04:05 PM   
Shark7


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Just don't forget its worse for the JFBs, since we have to use them to carry both fuel and oil, and you can sink ours easier...

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:06:18 PM   
John Lansford

 

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How short is Japan with respect to tanker and fuel shipping?  It seems that every other AK I hit gets the "fuel cargo burning" report so it appears the AI is using every hull it has to carry oil/fuel back to Japan.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:11:02 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

The USN has enough AO's (and there's a couple in Australia too) to refuel a couple of CV or SW TF's, but you've got to protect them like they were made of gold.  I keep mine well back from the shooting (no Andy I'm not telling you where they are) but they allow my TF's to have a larger radius of operation than they normally would if I had to use a base to refuel from.

They can also carry fuel to bases if you don't need them for operations, but they get my heaviest available protection so those pesky IJN CL/DD TF's can't get them...



If you want to have any hope of a 1943 counter-offensive down south, you'll need a good 500,000 - 1,000,000 fuel or more stockpiled in the south by the time 1943 rolls around.

With 2 or 3 large surface groups, 2 or 3 CV groups and all the amphib and cargo fleets operating down there, you can expect to burn through that stockpile pretty quickly, so you'll need regular 100,000+ sized fuel shipments coming in every month once offensive ops start.

So that's 2-3 runs for the entire US tanker fleet during 1942, plus extra runs needed for routine fuel being burned down south during 1942. So even if you had the entire US tanker fleet making runs to the south for all of 1942, you'll barely have enough fuel on hand for your 1943 offensives.

So as the allies I plan to use my AOs to make fuel runs to Pearl, and then use them for extending CV ops out of Pearl when needed. It's simply too expensive to operate CVs from bases south of Pearl in 1942 now, as it'll eat into your slowly growing stockpiles.

In an emergency I'd send the CVs south to defend Noumea or New Zealand, but forget about basing them down there full time like the allies used to do in WitP.

Jim


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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:12:48 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

How short is Japan with respect to tanker and fuel shipping?  It seems that every other AK I hit gets the "fuel cargo burning" report so it appears the AI is using every hull it has to carry oil/fuel back to Japan.


Japan doesn't start off as short as the Allies, but its not enough.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:19:29 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

How short is Japan with respect to tanker and fuel shipping?  It seems that every other AK I hit gets the "fuel cargo burning" report so it appears the AI is using every hull it has to carry oil/fuel back to Japan.


Here's an excerpt from a post by Mike Solli from this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2206904&mpage=2&key=

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Hi guys. A few notes on all of this. Based on the Japanese fleet of 7 Dec 41 (no conversions beyond what currently exists), the total capacity of all AK/AP/TK/AO/Minecraft/AMCs is:

Troop capacity: ~400,000
Cargo capacity: ~3,000,000
Liquid capacity: ~600,000

I think there will be sufficient capacity for resources, but TKs will be stressed. The TKs themselves carry only 414,000. AOs will have to support a lot (I'm thinking the 8k AOs) and TKs will have to be accelerated.


The one thing Japan has going for it that the allies don't, is range. Allied tankers have to travel twice to three times as far as Japanese tankers during runs to the south. So even though Japan only has about 400k in tanker lift, they'll be making 2 or 3 times as many round trips as the allied tankers during 1942.

For Japan, the long haul runs to bases like Truk, Rabaul, Guadalcanal, etc.. will be made mostly by their AKs. So the tanker fleet is in good shape until the allies can put a serious dent in it.

Jim


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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:21:00 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

Just don't forget its worse for the JFBs, since we have to use them to carry both fuel and oil, and you can sink ours easier...

No, it's only 42. I can DENT your ships, and it probably scares the hell out of the sleeping crew, but my torpedoes are not exploding.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:24:48 PM   
Kumppi


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I love the fact that logistics plays such a big part in this game. Success in war depends largely on it, especially when fought over great distances on an area which is mostly water. Worrying about it makes you feel like you are conducting a massive war.

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:30:44 PM   
jazman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zacktar

Like that old saying goes, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics!


So true. It's nice to have a game where you get to learn that so thoroughly. I know a lot of people like the carrier action...

From another post of mine:

quote:

I just had an AO torpedoed by a sub in the Guad scenario, it was unescorted (no escorts available, though I should have stripped a DD or two from elsewhere). Don't do that to important ships (that would be almost all of them). This game makes you appreciate how important an AO really is. When I was young I used to think about the Neosho getting blasted in Coral Sea, "ah, big deal, it's just a tanker."


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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:36:08 PM   
Graymane


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kumppi

I love the fact that logistics plays such a big part in this game. Success in war depends largely on it, especially when fought over great distances on an area which is mostly water. Worrying about it makes you feel like you are conducting a massive war.


Exactly, the whole reason I play this game. Try explaining that to friends or family though

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RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are... - 8/20/2009 3:42:28 PM   
Brady


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Its interesting reading these posts, as I have never ran short of fuel or suplys for the allies, theirs plenty to be had the only wory is simply moving it, and theirs plenty of lift for it.

I use Cape Town a lot though, not for the CBI realy but mostly to move stuff to Austraila.



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