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Secrets of ASW combat

 
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Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 1:18:33 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

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I hope that in this thread we'll all post our little secrets and tactics concerning ASW combat. I like the new sub combat model very much, but don't fully understand the ASW part of the game. Today my AKL had gun duel with the dutch submarine- and she fended sub off (both AKL and sub were damaged). So I have a rather nasty idea . i intend to use armed merchant cruisers as a raiders in the south pacific... but now, I intend to use them as sub bait. Plan to create "convoys" consisting of pairs of merchant cruisers. Since US sub torpedoes are worth nothing early in the game, they will prefer to attack unescorted ships on surface- and then they'll find themselves outgunned by merchant cruisers. Think that is a very good way to fight early war submarines. at least in theory. Will see how will this work at sea Basically I stole a Q-ship concept of the RN.

< Message edited by CV Zuikaku -- 8/11/2009 1:19:25 PM >
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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 2:03:10 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I've noticed that the AI is very aggressive with subs; my ASW air patrols are finding subs one hex out of San Diego and Los Angeles, even with 6 ASW ships patrolling in the area.  I have begun sending the Canadian KV's on a patrol line between Seattle and San Francisco, using those two ports as waypoints and setting the option to "refuel tactically" for both.  They'll run the same route that ships will and hopefully sweep up any subs.

Having ASW TF's capable of reacting onto detected subs helps; it at least forces them to relocate and I have gotten successful attacks after a reaction.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 2:24:34 PM   
EUBanana


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Make sure you dont use expensive and valuable DDs in your ASW forces.   Even if they have mega high ASW ratings the subs will take them on, and get a decent kill ratio against your very finite resource of destroyers.

Expendables, like SCs, will get a few subs, and when the subs attack them and sink them, you really don't care so much.


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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 2:25:38 PM   
EUBanana


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Sucks to be a sub chaser. 


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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 2:43:18 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

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SCs respawn?

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 2:45:23 PM   
Elladan

 

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No, but they are definitely less useful then DDs. And you get a lot of them anyway.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 2:53:37 PM   
Mynok


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ASW TFs will react onto subs now? Wow.....

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 3:32:13 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

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All I need is that subs react to my merchant cruisers and get torpedoed or shot to pieces

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 3:32:51 PM   
Elladan

 

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In my limited experience I have seen them react a lot but still have to see an attack after such react. So it's probably not as deadly as it seems at first. 

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 3:47:16 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I think it depends on the sub's detection level; I've had several reacts, but only one or two actual prosecutions of the contact.

The little YP's I'm starting to get on the WC really aren't good for anything but local ASW patrols.  I couldn't put them in a transport TF even when there were bigger ships available for refueling them, so I've got them on patrol zones off of all the ports now.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 3:50:45 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

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Aircraft too don't seem very effective. Have over 80 a/c on te Home Islands dedicated to ASW. After one month no hits and no attacks. So I reduced ranges and search arcs. No hits no attacks...

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 3:52:32 PM   
Elladan

 

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What are the ASW skills of your pilots?

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 4:01:44 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

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in the 40ies... not too much, they are still learning the job- but no attacks... altitudes are set from 1000fts to 6000fts...

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 4:20:15 PM   
Elladan

 

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I guess 40ish is not enough for a proper ASW job. See if the situation changes when they get some experience. From what I have read training in single skill is reasonably fast.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 5:03:11 PM   
Mynok


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Indeed...you can get in the 60s in a month. That's definitely where my Lily's are heading as soon as the initial conquests are done.


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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 6:39:49 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I get plenty of aerial contacts, but few attacks.  The Catalinas in Hawaii are starting to attack subs but no one else so far (late 1/42).  I'd like the horde of planes on ASW on the WC to start bombing those subs...

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 8:34:15 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana



Sucks to be a sub chaser. 




You've already won the battle when the sub fires 6 torps towards a dinghy. I can't kill the darn things but at least I can get them to waste ammo.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/11/2009 9:20:22 PM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana



Sucks to be a sub chaser. 




I am old enough to remember the first time watching the original episodes that it dawned on me how short the lifespans of the " red shirts " were.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/13/2009 12:24:16 AM   
Helldiver


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When I first read the new rule limitations on ASW TFs, I wasn't sure about it.... but, playing Scenario 1,  the numerous YP, KV etc. types are turning the early going into a really interesting ASW game-within-the-game... those local ASW types combined with the apparently hyper-aggressive IJN AI sub force is making for great fun as I learn AE... I, like John Lansford, am trying to set the ASW patrol zones to mimic the routes of friendly TFs...

I don't really understand the mechanics of the code in terms of DL and "who gets to shoot first," etc. but, in the early going it seems like all of those little ships on ASW patrol are "occupying" the IJN subs enough (despite their aggressive placement) to keep Allied losses to a reasonable level... not scientific, just a gut report so far...

Helldiver

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 8:22:44 AM   
CV Zuikaku

 

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I'm unable to sink any sub! Don't really know what to do anymore- nothing works and the subs are on the rampage

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 9:01:17 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

I'm unable to sink any sub! Don't really know what to do anymore- nothing works and the subs are on the rampage


Double your light units and aircraft allocated to convoy protection and ASW. Then taper back as the problem subsides.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 9:35:55 AM   
jimh009

 

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I've had miserable luck sinking subs, but I've avoided having Japanese subs feast on my transports. The key, for me anyways, is to have several roaming anti-sub patrols (as others said, to occupy the Jap subs) along the West coast. Also have plenty of ASW patrols up. They won't kill anything, but they do force the submarines to submerge, which greatly limits their range and effectiveness. And to avoid carnage on the high seas, use waypoints to avoid most "obvious spots". I still lose transports to Japanese subs...maybe 2 a week now (always in un-escorted convoys...I've yet to lose a single ship in a escorted convoy)...but that's a fully acceptable loss for the allies.

Additionally, speed plays a big role in whether or not a particular ship gets hit or not. Most ships I've lost to submarines have been the slow xAKL's. The 14+ knot speed transports have had very little contact with submarines, and when they do, the subs tend to miss.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 12:20:51 PM   
hellfirejet


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Of all the devices listed in the database,SONAR has been overlooked,because it's to hard to model in game programming terms,pull the other one it has bells on.

Without SONAR it would be the submarine that would be the master of the oceans and not the aircraft carrier,if you can't see it how can you attack it,the game is massive yet this vital invention is overlooked,come on implement it into the game now!!!!!

I think that unless a ship has sonar listed in it's weapons loadout,that it should not be able to attack a sub with depth charges or whatever, simple solution is just list sonar as a device in the database,and unless a ship has it in it's weapons load out no attack allowed against subs simple.

So sonar + depthcharges etc listed on board a ships weapons system,ship allowed to attack submarine's if not both listed then no attack allowed yes /no maybe perhaps ? The sonar does not even need to be programmed to do anything,other than be used in combination with depthcharges etc.

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 8/14/2009 12:21:00 PM >


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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 1:17:32 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Of all the devices listed in the database,SONAR has been overlooked,because it's to hard to model in game programming terms,pull the other one it has bells on.

Without SONAR it would be the submarine that would be the master of the oceans and not the aircraft carrier,if you can't see it how can you attack it,the game is massive yet this vital invention is overlooked,come on implement it into the game now!!!!!

I think that unless a ship has sonar listed in it's weapons loadout,that it should not be able to attack a sub with depth charges or whatever, simple solution is just list sonar as a device in the database,and unless a ship has it in it's weapons load out no attack allowed against subs simple.

So sonar + depthcharges etc listed on board a ships weapons system,ship allowed to attack submarine's if not both listed then no attack allowed yes /no maybe perhaps ? The sonar does not even need to be programmed to do anything,other than be used in combination with depthcharges etc.


OK, I did my PhD research on bat sonar, making heavy use of a professional background in radar and submarine sonar. My lab continues to do work in this area. Sonar, particularly submarine sonar, is messy. You want to follow Wayne Hughes's advice and stick to modelling stuff you understand. Instead, use operational performance data. That's good enough for a game, and it means you don't have to worry about target acquisition and kill mechanisms except in a very gross sense. It's well to realise that most submarines that were sunk were spotted on the surface, either with radar or the Mark I Eyeball. Active sonar played its role later in the engagement, once an escort was sitting on top of the sub.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 1:27:35 PM   
bklooste

 

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Most Japanese ships , submarines and escorts didnt use Sonar they just used a Hydrophone ie a microphone in the water. Any ship with Depth charges would have a Hydrophone.

Your Sonar restriction would mean Japan has no ASW which is not historical.  The main reason Japan did so little was their early depth charges were set to high.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 2:19:41 PM   
AW1Steve


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A hydrophone in the water IS SONAR. It's passive SONAR  as opposed to active.Active is sometimes referred to as "pinging". Passive SONAR is not ineffective, it's been the perferred method of hunting submarines since WW2. Only now, with the emphasis on coastal, shallow water ASW is active once again coming into vogue. Don't right off passive. Also , there are many ways of detectecting submarines. As others have mentioned , visual sightings are very, very important. I've found a lot of subs in real life by visual. 

Ther are other techniques , less used today , such as "dragging" (literally dragging grappels for subs, often used by minecraft against subs laying on the bottom or "resting" on the thermocline). Magnatometers were being experimented with (long before the airborne use of MAD, 1st used in WW2 and still very much used today). DC's are not precision weapons , and are excellent to drop on a sub when you don't really know where he is, and might get lucky. At the very least you will "spook him" and force him to keep his head down. And even today some small navies practice mass "mobbing tactics" as developed by the Soviets where every ship in the vicinity drops everything it has on a "flamming datum" (sighting or other form of contact). So think about it before you ditch those DC racks.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 3:44:44 PM   
bklooste

 

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quote:

ss used today , such as "dragging" (literally dragging grappels for subs, often used by minecraft against subs laying on the bottom or "resting" on the thermocline). Magnatometers were being experimented with (long before the airborne use of MAD, 1st used in WW2 and still very much used today). DC's are not precision weapons , and are excellent to drop on a sub when you don't really know where he is, and might get


WWII Hydrophones were pretty crappy...in terms of depth ,range and bearing at least compared to late war active measures.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 4:02:46 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

quote:

ss used today , such as "dragging" (literally dragging grappels for subs, often used by minecraft against subs laying on the bottom or "resting" on the thermocline). Magnatometers were being experimented with (long before the airborne use of MAD, 1st used in WW2 and still very much used today). DC's are not precision weapons , and are excellent to drop on a sub when you don't really know where he is, and might get


WWII Hydrophones were pretty crappy...in terms of depth ,range and bearing at least compared to late war active measures.


Perhaps 10 nm at most to detect a warship, up to 50 nm to detect a convoy.

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 4:04:08 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

quote:

ss used today , such as "dragging" (literally dragging grappels for subs, often used by minecraft against subs laying on the bottom or "resting" on the thermocline). Magnatometers were being experimented with (long before the airborne use of MAD, 1st used in WW2 and still very much used today). DC's are not precision weapons , and are excellent to drop on a sub when you don't really know where he is, and might get


WWII Hydrophones were pretty crappy...in terms of depth ,range and bearing at least compared to late war active measures.


That's true. It's also true that just about every aspect of WW2 equipment,training and tactics were pretty crappy compared to late in the war. Few things got worse. So what's your point?

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RE: Secrets of ASW combat - 8/14/2009 4:34:48 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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I never figured out why Sonar wasn't modeled in the game. It has always seemed to me that it would be relatively easy to do so - based upon the type of sonar a certain percentage chance is added to the sighting die roll or to the ASW attack die roll... The experts can argue over which of these choices is better, but I cna't imagine why it was never considered. 

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