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Kido Butai VS 4 US CV

 
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> Kido Butai VS 4 US CV Page: [1]
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Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 11:44:33 AM   
harrer

 

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Hi all,

I made a test in december 41 and i just want to show you the results :


JAP : 3 TF with 2 CV and some CA, CL, DD each ( 432 planes )

US : 2 TF with 2 CV and some CA, DD each ( 334 planes )

Each CV was full of planes, moral at 95, CAP at 70.

3 jap TF on the same hexe, 2 hexes away from the US CVs


Here is the show ...





Morning Air attack on TF, near Johnston Island at 161,107

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 95



Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 10
F4F-3A Wildcat x 8
F4F-3 Wildcat x 14
SBD-2 Dauntless x 54
SBD-3 Dauntless x 90
TBD-1 Devastator x 45


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F2A-3 Buffalo: 3 destroyed
F4F-3A Wildcat: 2 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 4 destroyed
SBD-2 Dauntless: 16 destroyed, 13 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 16 destroyed, 12 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 5 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1
DD Kagero
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Akigumo
DD Urakaze
DD Shiranui
DD Tanikaze
CA Chikuma

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Hiryu
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Akagi




The japanese counter-attack ...




Morning Air attack on TF, near Johnston Island at 161,109

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 60 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 31
B5N2 Kate x 162
D3A1 Val x 117



Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 25
F4F-3A Wildcat x 19
F4F-3 Wildcat x 34


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 21 destroyed, 21 damaged
D3A1 Val: 17 destroyed, 21 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F2A-3 Buffalo: 1 destroyed
F4F-3A Wildcat: 2 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
DD Craven
CA Northampton, Torpedo hits 1
CA Astoria, Bomb hits 1
DD Drayton
DD Porter
DD Lamson, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Mahan, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Salt Lake City, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires
CA Chester, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Chicago, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CA Portland, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD McCall
DD Benham
DD Balch, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Flusser

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring a Indomitable class CV
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Saratoga
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Salt Lake City
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Portland
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CA Chicago





Morning Air attack on TF, near Johnston Island at 161,107

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 43 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 52



Allied aircraft
TBD-1 Devastator x 15


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBD-1 Devastator: 10 destroyed







3 US CV sunk in the morning, and in the afternoon ...



Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Johnston Island at 161,109

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
B5N2 Kate x 83
D3A1 Val x 97



Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 13


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 14 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F2A-3 Buffalo: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 11, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chester, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Craven
DD Benham
CA Portland, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CA Astoria, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
DD Flusser, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Drayton
CA Salt Lake City, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CA Northampton, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
DD Maury
DD Ellet






As results :

US naval losses :

4 CV
5 CA
3 DD

+
CA Portland with 54(sys) 98(flt) 17(eng) 51(fire) (won't survive)
DD Balch with 37(sys) 32(flt) 4(eng) 2(fire)

Jap naval losses :

none ...
+
CV Kaga 2(sys) 0(flt) 0(eng) 0(fire)
CV Zuikaku 15(sys) 26(flt) 6(eng) 0(fire)
CV Akagi 34(sys) 10(flt) 14(eng) 0(fire)
CV Hiryu 39(sys) 15(flt) 4(eng) 0(fire)
BB kirishima 7(sys) 0(flt) 2(eng) 0(fire)

(They will all make it)

Aircraft losses :

US Jap
Air to air : 94 65
On field : 49 0
By flak : 4 10
Ops losses : 6 30


CAP would have done better results in witp, but the final result is good

Interesting to notice that US intel thinks that Zuikaku has been sunk by the torpedo hit.




Banzai Banzai Banzai !

< Message edited by harrer -- 8/4/2009 11:48:26 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 11:55:49 AM   
sval


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Joined: 4/15/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
Interesting to notice that US intel thinks that Zuikaku has been sunk by the torpedo hit.


Where did you see that?

I just saw Bomb hit 1; Torpedo hit 1 on Zuikaku's line, not any mention to an eventual sinking (nor on fire)

(in reply to harrer)
Post #: 2
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 12:39:43 PM   
harrer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sval


quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
Interesting to notice that US intel thinks that Zuikaku has been sunk by the torpedo hit.


Where did you see that?

I just saw Bomb hit 1; Torpedo hit 1 on Zuikaku's line, not any mention to an eventual sinking (nor on fire)



In the list " ships sunk " on allied side, see :




As well as the DD Balch is sunk for the japanese :


[image][/image]





Attachment (1)

(in reply to sval)
Post #: 3
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 12:43:54 PM   
sval


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Joined: 4/15/2009
Status: offline
Ok

It was not on your previous post.

Very interesting, we cannot trust anything so....

(in reply to harrer)
Post #: 4
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 1:41:30 PM   
EUBanana


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From: Little England
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Wouldn't a 2 CV Allied TF suffer the disorganisation penalty?

Tho a 90 SBD raid implies not...


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Post #: 5
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 1:48:26 PM   
harrer

 

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Joined: 12/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sval

Ok

It was not on your previous post.

Very interesting, we cannot trust anything so....


And sometimes it's the same with the aircraft losses ^^
( A to A + ops + by flak + on field isn't equal to total losses )




quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Wouldn't a 2 CV Allied TF suffer the disorganisation penalty?

Tho a 90 SBD raid implies not...



As you can see, more than 200 allied aircraft together ... but not many hits

(in reply to sval)
Post #: 6
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 2:02:35 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 3849
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: harrer
As you can see, more than 200 allied aircraft together ... but not many hits


Small escort (including crappy Buffaloes) against big, elite CAP.

Try it again with Allied CAP set to 20. You can assume if the Allies are coming for you in December 1941 they are going for broke.


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Post #: 7
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 2:42:50 PM   
harrer

 

Posts: 719
Joined: 12/1/2004
Status: offline
I tried !

Losses :

- 2 US CV sunk, the 2 others no more able to launch planes
Lots of CA and DD damaged.

AM :

Allied Ships
     CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire
     CV Yorktown, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1,  heavy fires
     DD Dunlap, Bomb hits 1
     CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     CA Chicago
     CV Lexington, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DD Mahan
     DD Lamson
     DD Porter
     DD Ellet
     DD Fanning, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     DD Gridley
     CA Northampton, Bomb hits 1
     DD Flusser, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
     DD Balch
     DD Maury
     DD Benham
     CA Astoria, Torpedo hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage
     CA Portland, Bomb hits 1
     DD Drayton
     CA Salt Lake City


Japanese aircraft
     B5N2 Kate x 27



Allied aircraft
     F2A-3 Buffalo x 3
     F4F-3A Wildcat x 3
     F4F-3 Wildcat x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
     B5N2 Kate: 9 destroyed, 7 damaged


Allied Ships
     CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     CA Portland


Second wave on PM :

Allied Ships
     DD Maury, Bomb hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 2,  on fire
     CV Yorktown,  on fire
     DD Dunlap
     DD Gridley, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     DD Craven
     CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
     CA Portland, Bomb hits 2
     CA Salt Lake City, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
     DD Balch
     DD Fanning,  on fire
     DD McCall
     DD Ellet
     DD Benham
     CA Astoria, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
     DD Porter
     DD Mahan
     CA Chester, Bomb hits 3,  heavy fires
     DD Lamson
     CA Chicago, Bomb hits 3,  on fire
     CA Northampton, Torpedo hits 1

- 1 jap DD sunk. More hits on the japs vessels than previously:


Japanese aircraft
      A6M2 Zero x 100
 
Allied aircraft
      F2A-3 Buffalo x 31
      F4F-3A Wildcat x 22
      F4F-3 Wildcat x 39
      SBD-2 Dauntless x 54
      SBD-3 Dauntless x 90
      TBD-1 Devastator x 45

Japanese Ships
     CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3,  heavy fires                           25(sys) 6(flt) 3(eng) 2(fire)
     CV Akagi, Bomb hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage              61(sys) 32(flt) 19(eng) 3(fire)
     CA Kumano, Bomb hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage           58(sys) 25(flt) 9(eng) 2(fire)
     CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1,  on fire                                      13(sys) 1(flt) 1(eng) 0(fire)
     CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 1                                                  18(sys) 5(flt) 0(eng) 0(fire)
     BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire             16(sys) 15(flt) 5(eng) 0(fire)
     DD Tanikaze
     DD Urakaze, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
     CL Abukuma
     DD Hamakaze
     DD Shiranui


But on the second day, the KB sunk the rest of the allied fleet




(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 8
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 2:43:20 PM   
grraven2004


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From: Cuyahoga Falls OH
Status: offline
As a JFB I'm not sure I would like seeing that. Sure I would probably win that clash but the 4 new Essex class Showing up early 43 would really suck.

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Klingon By choice!

Sig changed per Erik's request

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 9
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 2:46:35 PM   
harrer

 

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Joined: 12/1/2004
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... On the other hand, those are 4 US CV who won't be used to beat you in 42 ...
But i agree, and here it was just to see the clash

(in reply to grraven2004)
Post #: 10
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/4/2009 3:51:51 PM   
Fishbed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

As a JFB I'm not sure I would like seeing that. Sure I would probably win that clash but the 4 new Essex class Showing up early 43 would really suck.


Play with no respawn then... as it should be

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RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/5/2009 1:24:24 AM   
Xxzard

 

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From: Arizona
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Hmm, those Japanese CV's sure do a bit better dealing with fire than those in th Battle of Midway did. Even those reported with heavy fires are OK at the end of the day. (no fire dmg number) There is some room for discussion of that.

Performance of torpedo bombers looks crucial to success here, the TBD's score one hit on Zuikaku in 1st scen, no hits on CV's in 2nd, though two hits on a BB that seems to shake it off. Meanwhile 4 hits each for two US CVs, hits on all others, multiple hits on cruisers, and sinking torpedo hits on destroyers! Of course, that is with 162 kates w/torpedoes.


With preferential repairs the Japanese CV fleet would be back in action soon.

(in reply to Fishbed)
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RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/5/2009 1:31:20 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

As a JFB I'm not sure I would like seeing that. Sure I would probably win that clash but the 4 new Essex class Showing up early 43 would really suck.


It's almost a Pyrrhic Victory. Sure you won the battle, but you cost yourself the war in the long run. You lost good pilots and time (while KB sits in a port repairing) that you could ill afford to lose.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 13
RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/5/2009 3:33:53 AM   
Alikchi

 

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From: Edmond, Oklahoma, US
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Every Japanese victory is a Pyrrhic victory, it seems

I'd be interested to see this battle again with June 42 aircraft and upgrades.. oh and maybe limited torps for the Kates.

Edit - actually, you know what? I'll mod that up right now. Hang tight.

< Message edited by Alikchi -- 8/5/2009 3:34:36 AM >


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RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/29/2009 2:26:13 PM   
bklooste

 

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quote:

o bombers looks crucial to success here, the TBD's score one hit on Zuikaku in 1st scen, no hits on CV's in 2nd, though two hits on a BB that seems to shake it off. Meanwh


Remember Midway was lucky as it caught the 2nd strike on the decks..

(in reply to Xxzard)
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RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/29/2009 3:08:30 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

It's almost a Pyrrhic Victory. Sure you won the battle, but you cost yourself the war in the long run. You lost good pilots and time (while KB sits in a port repairing) that you could ill afford to lose.


Interesting question whether it helps Japan. It does suck having KB out of the picture, but this would be an unqualified victory. Even if KB is stuck repairing, you can scrape together enough CVLs and Junyos to support ops, without fear of USN CV interference.

If you only DAMAGED those USN CV's, though, that would be bad......they repair quicker

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RE: Kido Butai VS 4 US CV - 8/30/2009 3:18:39 AM   
Astarix

 

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quote:

CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires 25(sys) 6(flt) 3(eng) 2(fire)
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage 61(sys) 32(flt) 19(eng) 3(fire)
CA Kumano, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage 58(sys) 25(flt) 9(eng) 2(fire)


With that much sys damage, its a coin toss on whether Akagi and Kumano will make it back to port. In a game I am playing with the AI I sent 2 BB's back to San Fran with those types of damage #'s, Pennsylvania and Nevada. Pennsylvania suffered catastrophic flooding about 200 miles out from Pearl and I was forced to scuttle her. Nevada had about 10 fewer points of sys dmg, suffered a bad flooding role, then got lucky 2 days running and limped home into Frisco with about 65% flooding.

High Sys damage is a ship killer if there is the major flooding is over 20%. Zuikaku could also be in trouble depending on what additional dmg results from the fires. Also, I've noticed that random events can occur, such as storm damage at sea, etc. I had a destroyer suffer major dmg while at sea and while it didn't sink it was easy meat for a passing Jap Sub. If I were the allied player I would be positioning subs near the major Jap bases in the hopes of picking off cripples.

Another thing I've noticed, is crippled ships draw sub and air attacks like chum draws sharks. I typically station 3-5 subs at Kwajalien, Truck, Pelileu, Rabaul, etc. Even with High dud rates, I notice U.S. sub skippers will sometimes make repeated attacks on a cripple until a torp finally explodes. In the case of those 3 ships 1 more fish would almost certainly guarantee they sink. For that matter, any of the damaged Japanese ships in this scenario are in danger until they reach port.

It would be interesting to see how this played out until KB was back at port.

(in reply to harrer)
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