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RE: Japanese airframe production

 
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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/13/2009 9:13:52 PM   
Gobstopper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

The Nick (FB version) would be an outstanding choice as an early fighter. Good range, good firepower, relatively good speed and maneuver. Only problem that I can find is that as a fighter bomber, regular fighter units can't select it as a valid upgrade. They can take fighters only, not fighter bombers. It would be nice if this was fixed in a patch.


arrrrg.

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Post #: 181
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/13/2009 9:50:19 PM   
Gobstopper

 

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actually, this does seem to be a little screwed up. there are some nate squads that can update to nick (those that are speced in the db to do so). if they are speced to update to oscar they can't. there is at least one Babs squad that can update to nick though (4th Sentai Det A at Takao) which seems odd although maybe historical. still, if pdu is on, players should have a bit more flexibility.

seems like it will pay to go through the db and really check out the oob. i'd sure rather have a nick FB squad than another Babs squad.

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Post #: 182
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/13/2009 10:05:18 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
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From: San Jose, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kitakami
question for Joe:

- Is that part of the design, only one unit can be converted to A6M3 from those that are available at start?
- Or is it a side-effect of the units being carrier-capable?


Distinction between A6M3 and A6M3a ... not carrier capable ... carrier capable is a hold over from stock ... so yes, that is part of the design.

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Post #: 183
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/13/2009 10:48:56 PM   
Mynok


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Don't get too excited about the Nick. It wasn't very good in Witp.

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Post #: 184
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/14/2009 12:12:59 AM   
Kitakami

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: the bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kitakami
question for Joe:

- Is that part of the design, only one unit can be converted to A6M3 from those that are available at start?
- Or is it a side-effect of the units being carrier-capable?


Distinction between A6M3 and A6M3a ... not carrier capable ... carrier capable is a hold over from stock ... so yes, that is part of the design.


That means, then, that only 2 A6M2 units can be converted to A6M3 in the course of the game, and the rest will have to wait until December '42 to convert to the A6M3a. I did not know only 2 units flew the A6M3 historically.

Wich means, for the discussion we have been having, that increasing production of the A6M3 is a BAD idea. 24 planes per month to keep 2 27-plane units is more than enough. That factory will see down time quite often... and we will need another A6M2 factory... which will have to be switched manually paying supply for the conversion... hmm... again... decisions... decisions...

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Post #: 185
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/14/2009 3:25:12 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline
A bit of analysis on the IJA fighters and bombers ...

Fighters
IJA seems to have 582 fighter slots. I use the term "slot" to refer to a place to put an airplane in an air unit. Since there is no air unit production in AE (nor was their in WITP) we live with what the OOB gives us in terms of slots. And slots determines the maximum amount of aircraft we can use at any point in time - hence the maximum useful size of the air force. So, in the case of IJA fighters this seems to be 582 (if my arithmetic is correct). I am not counting the 102 additional slots in "static" fighter units - those which cannot be deployed out of Manchurian or the Home Islands. So, in my terminology, we have 582 "mobile" fighter slots for the IJA.

These start with about 70 deployable Oscars. So to "retire" the Oscars would require upwards up 500 new planes to be built, not counting losses. At the starting rate of 32 per month, this would take over 15 months to accomplish by which time these Oscar Ic would be obsolete. And on average, we would still be using Nates, in the slots for half of this time. Re-stated, about half the slots would be full of Nates on average.

Tojos will come in Around September 42, and Tony's around February 43, so we won't need to build Oscars for 15 months. But if we build them for a year, building a total of 500 might make sense. If we average about 50 per month - then we would be buliding Oscars for about 10 months - if we build 500. Having several small factores building Oscars is probably good, then as the Tojos and Tonys come on line, some factories can switch over. Any excess Oscars can be used as trainers later.

Nates, will be used as trainers until they cease to exist. This is most useful in PDU ON games, where you can "downgrade" as well as "upgrade". For air units performing on map training - I will "downgrade" the unit to Nates while it is training - then upgrade it to the latest fighter type as it returns to the front. This means that I only need to build enough new fighters to fill up the units at the front. And I can continue to fully utilize obsolecent types for training until they all attrite away. Note that this is only possible in PDU ON games.

In stock I had about 2/3rds of all IJA fighter units "in training" on average. So given the AE slot totals 200 front line fighters available for forward deployment, plus another 200 in the pools seems a sufficient target for the first year.

Bombers
As for IJA bombers I count 779 slots with about 230 Sally's in these slots (in my game). So not quite 1/3rd are Sally's already. I cannot predict the percentage of bomber units that will need to be in training at any given time in AE. But given that the Japanese will surely switch to the defensive by the end of 1942 and surely lose air superiority, the need for bombers will drastically decrease at the front. Remaining bombers we can try to switch to ASW as we did in stock, but they will not be nearly as effective, so keeping the IJA bomber units at full strength after 1942 is probably not nearly as useful as it was in stock. Consequently, I do not plan a major investment in growing IJA bomber production. But I will build up Helen production to roughly the same as Sally production.



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Post #: 186
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/14/2009 5:40:08 AM   
Kitakami

 

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Thanks for your analysis Joe. It certainly makes me think :)

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Post #: 187
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 10:56:13 AM   
Historiker


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Is someone competent enough to create an excel formula for Aircraft engines?
I think about something where you add the number of engines produced per month, the actual pool and how much are used ATM and in future. This should reflect conversions to the engine and away from it.
One might consequently see that its e.g. needed to build an addition 20 Ha-35 from Dec-41 on to have enough in pool to be able to build an aircraft that comes available in mid 44 without any changes - despite haveing an engine production deficit, then.
Doing all this without a formula is a hell of work...


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Post #: 188
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 11:00:06 AM   
n01487477


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quote:

Is someone competent enough to create an excel formula for Aircraft engines?
I think about something where you add the number of engines produced per month, the actual pool and how much are used ATM and in future. This should reflect conversions to the engine and away from it.
One might consequently see that its e.g. needed to build an addition 20 Ha-35 from Dec-41 on to have enough in pool to be able to build an aircraft that comes available in mid 44 without any changes - despite haveing an engine production deficit, then.
Doing all this without a formula is a hell of work...

Yep,
but you'll have to wait for tracker-ae to arrive before you get to use it ... eta, after patch 1

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EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

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Post #: 189
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 11:01:16 AM   
Historiker


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From: Deutschland
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I want to start a Japanese PBEM, soon. BUt to do this, I need this data. Can you give a rough ETA for the new tracker with this ability?

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Post #: 190
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 11:02:07 AM   
n01487477


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This is what it looks like for stock Tracker ... I've improved it a bit for AE ...





[edit] - will be available a few days after Patch 1

Attachment (1)

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Tutes&Java

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Post #: 191
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 11:07:41 AM   
n01487477


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Historiker
It only does 12 months in advance at present, but I was thinking in the future I'll make it to wars end ...

The calculation must iterate through the plane list each month in advance and make additional calculations, so it has a bit of overhead (time)...

I'm still checking the AE version, but after patch 1, as I said, it will be available for you to play with and make suggestions as to improvement or bugs (hopefully none)



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EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

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Post #: 192
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 11:10:16 AM   
Historiker


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The engine planning calculated conversions away and to the engine for the future, too? It also adjusts itself if something changes?
That would be really great!


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Post #: 193
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 11:19:16 AM   
n01487477


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Yep, does ALL that as well as checks repairing... The table is a bit messy, but once you know how to read it, it can be really helpful.

From what I've seen of AE, the production of engines is not all that bad, compared to Nemo's EA mod for witp, which has incredible production changes. (as you can see from the table). And which is probably the hardest economic mod invented so far.

Anyway, take is easy, it isn't worth starting a new PBEM until Patch1 arrives IMHO.



_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

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Post #: 194
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 11:24:15 AM   
Historiker


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Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

Thank you!


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Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

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Post #: 195
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 8:03:21 PM   
Hanzberger


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Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Use it ... Don't use it ... but this has pretty much all you need

AirFrame Production
Engines & calc
ALL Airgroups

If you want to reinvent the wheel ...

Has this changed or been moved? It won't open up or dl.

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Post #: 196
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 8:33:49 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16111
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


Thank you!



Looks like another convert to the wonders of Tracker.

I play as the Allies, and I love it, for all the alerts, base history, device replacement tracking, ship upgrades, as well as some basic resource/oil shipping. I can't imagine how guys were successful running the Japanese industry without it. Can't wait for the AE version.

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Post #: 197
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 8:47:55 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 13935
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: online
I never got into WitP Tracker.  I tried an early verison and it was slower than molasses.  Lost interest.  I like my spreadsheets.  Speaking of spreadsheets, I need to work on my "stuff" tracker.

*If this message posts 3 times, I'm just trying to pad my post count.

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Created by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 198
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 9:04:59 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker


Thank you!



Looks like another convert to the wonders of Tracker.

I play as the Allies, and I love it, for all the alerts, base history, device replacement tracking, ship upgrades, as well as some basic resource/oil shipping. I can't imagine how guys were successful running the Japanese industry without it. Can't wait for the AE version.

I used it for quite a while, but never used all functions...

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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Post #: 199
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/3/2009 10:07:58 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12119
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I never got into WitP Tracker.  I tried an early verison and it was slower than molasses.  Lost interest.  I like my spreadsheets.  Speaking of spreadsheets, I need to work on my "stuff" tracker.

*If this message posts 3 times, I'm just trying to pad my post count.


Em....tracker isn't slow....your computer is slow.....

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Post #: 200
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/4/2009 4:33:50 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4717
Joined: 2/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger


quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Use it ... Don't use it ... but this has pretty much all you need

AirFrame Production
Engines & calc
ALL Airgroups

If you want to reinvent the wheel ...

Has this changed or been moved? It won't open up or dl.



Yeah I've taken down the site at present for refurbishment , if you want the files pm me with your email and I'll get them to you ...

--Damian--

(in reply to Hanzberger)
Post #: 201
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/4/2009 5:32:16 AM   
GB68

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 8/4/2009
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

A bit of analysis on the IJA fighters and bombers ...

Fighters
IJA seems to have 582 fighter slots. I use the term "slot" to refer to a place to put an airplane in an air unit. Since there is no air unit production in AE (nor was their in WITP) we live with what the OOB gives us in terms of slots. And slots determines the maximum amount of aircraft we can use at any point in time - hence the maximum useful size of the air force. So, in the case of IJA fighters this seems to be 582 (if my arithmetic is correct). I am not counting the 102 additional slots in "static" fighter units - those which cannot be deployed out of Manchurian or the Home Islands. So, in my terminology, we have 582 "mobile" fighter slots for the IJA.

These start with about 70 deployable Oscars. So to "retire" the Oscars would require upwards up 500 new planes to be built, not counting losses. At the starting rate of 32 per month, this would take over 15 months to accomplish by which time these Oscar Ic would be obsolete. And on average, we would still be using Nates, in the slots for half of this time. Re-stated, about half the slots would be full of Nates on average.

Tojos will come in Around September 42, and Tony's around February 43, so we won't need to build Oscars for 15 months. But if we build them for a year, building a total of 500 might make sense. If we average about 50 per month - then we would be buliding Oscars for about 10 months - if we build 500. Having several small factores building Oscars is probably good, then as the Tojos and Tonys come on line, some factories can switch over. Any excess Oscars can be used as trainers later.

Nates, will be used as trainers until they cease to exist. This is most useful in PDU ON games, where you can "downgrade" as well as "upgrade". For air units performing on map training - I will "downgrade" the unit to Nates while it is training - then upgrade it to the latest fighter type as it returns to the front. This means that I only need to build enough new fighters to fill up the units at the front. And I can continue to fully utilize obsolecent types for training until they all attrite away. Note that this is only possible in PDU ON games.

In stock I had about 2/3rds of all IJA fighter units "in training" on average. So given the AE slot totals 200 front line fighters available for forward deployment, plus another 200 in the pools seems a sufficient target for the first year.

Bombers
As for IJA bombers I count 779 slots with about 230 Sally's in these slots (in my game). So not quite 1/3rd are Sally's already. I cannot predict the percentage of bomber units that will need to be in training at any given time in AE. But given that the Japanese will surely switch to the defensive by the end of 1942 and surely lose air superiority, the need for bombers will drastically decrease at the front. Remaining bombers we can try to switch to ASW as we did in stock, but they will not be nearly as effective, so keeping the IJA bomber units at full strength after 1942 is probably not nearly as useful as it was in stock. Consequently, I do not plan a major investment in growing IJA bomber production. But I will build up Helen production to roughly the same as Sally production.





Thanks for that analysis jwilkerson. Very helpful.

The only rider I would put on it, is upon scanning the database, I notice there are Oscar and (especially) Nate units arriving right up until mid-1945?

I did not do a count but it seems to be quite significant in qunatities. Would this affect your analysis?

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Post #: 202
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/7/2009 1:23:50 PM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 771
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanzberger


quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Use it ... Don't use it ... but this has pretty much all you need

AirFrame Production
Engines & calc
ALL Airgroups

If you want to reinvent the wheel ...

Has this changed or been moved? It won't open up or dl.



Yeah I've taken down the site at present for refurbishment , if you want the files pm me with your email and I'll get them to you ...

--Damian--


Damian I think alot of ppl would use it so when your done polishing it maybe just repost it for everyone to use and or if your using a website, just give us your web address. TY
OH yea, stop posting and get that tracker going, JK<.

< Message edited by Hanzberger -- 9/7/2009 1:25:05 PM >

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Post #: 203
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/7/2009 1:27:39 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 709
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

A bit of analysis on the IJA fighters and bombers ...

Fighters
IJA seems to have 582 fighter slots. I use the term "slot" to refer to a place to put an airplane in an air unit. Since there is no air unit production in AE (nor was their in WITP) we live with what the OOB gives us in terms of slots. And slots determines the maximum amount of aircraft we can use at any point in time - hence the maximum useful size of the air force. So, in the case of IJA fighters this seems to be 582 (if my arithmetic is correct). I am not counting the 102 additional slots in "static" fighter units - those which cannot be deployed out of Manchurian or the Home Islands. So, in my terminology, we have 582 "mobile" fighter slots for the IJA.

These start with about 70 deployable Oscars. So to "retire" the Oscars would require upwards up 500 new planes to be built, not counting losses. At the starting rate of 32 per month, this would take over 15 months to accomplish by which time these Oscar Ic would be obsolete. And on average, we would still be using Nates, in the slots for half of this time. Re-stated, about half the slots would be full of Nates on average.

Tojos will come in Around September 42, and Tony's around February 43, so we won't need to build Oscars for 15 months. But if we build them for a year, building a total of 500 might make sense. If we average about 50 per month - then we would be buliding Oscars for about 10 months - if we build 500. Having several small factores building Oscars is probably good, then as the Tojos and Tonys come on line, some factories can switch over. Any excess Oscars can be used as trainers later.

Nates, will be used as trainers until they cease to exist. This is most useful in PDU ON games, where you can "downgrade" as well as "upgrade". For air units performing on map training - I will "downgrade" the unit to Nates while it is training - then upgrade it to the latest fighter type as it returns to the front. This means that I only need to build enough new fighters to fill up the units at the front. And I can continue to fully utilize obsolecent types for training until they all attrite away. Note that this is only possible in PDU ON games.

In stock I had about 2/3rds of all IJA fighter units "in training" on average. So given the AE slot totals 200 front line fighters available for forward deployment, plus another 200 in the pools seems a sufficient target for the first year.

Bombers
As for IJA bombers I count 779 slots with about 230 Sally's in these slots (in my game). So not quite 1/3rd are Sally's already. I cannot predict the percentage of bomber units that will need to be in training at any given time in AE. But given that the Japanese will surely switch to the defensive by the end of 1942 and surely lose air superiority, the need for bombers will drastically decrease at the front. Remaining bombers we can try to switch to ASW as we did in stock, but they will not be nearly as effective, so keeping the IJA bomber units at full strength after 1942 is probably not nearly as useful as it was in stock. Consequently, I do not plan a major investment in growing IJA bomber production. But I will build up Helen production to roughly the same as Sally production.




Uh... maybe a stupid question, but - what about losses? How are these included in your calculations?

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 204
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/7/2009 3:52:17 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10262
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From: San Jose, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

Uh... maybe a stupid question, but - what about losses? How are these included in your calculations?



Well I used the words "not counting losses" since I was "not counting losses. Losses are basically impossible to predict, hence the plan for how to deal with losses is to react. The safety stock levels give some buffer, this time is used to turn the factories back on and rebuild the safety stock. If losses regularly massively replenishment ability, then one would need to reconsider the operational pattern generating the high losses and change it.

Another aspect is "ramping for upgrades" and I have not exhaustively studied this yet. But when new types come on line - mostly just a few fighter types - that are desired in front line units quickly - then we would want to ramp up production capacity for that plane for a while. Since training time will be at least 2 months and "predicted life at the front" will probably only be a few days - I would expect training units to out number front line units by about 2 to 1 in the "steady state". This means I only need to build enough front line types (like Tony) to fill one third of the front line units. The training units (assuming PDU on) can continue to use Nates until they are exhaused, and Oscars there after. So I need about 200 Tony's plus safety stock, but I would like to have those Tony's quickly, so I might ramp up to a 100-200 production capability for Tony's even though I might only use it briefly. I can probably only afford to do this for a few critical types, but perhaps Tony's are one of the ones that are worth it. Maybe George as well. I don't have as much experience with these types in AE as I did in WITP, so can't be sure yet.



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Post #: 205
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/11/2009 11:42:00 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
How many planes are needed to get a group activated? Is one sufficiant?

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There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

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Post #: 206
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/12/2009 2:53:04 AM   
Mike Solli


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Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
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Yup, one will do.

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Post #: 207
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/12/2009 9:48:03 PM   
Hanzberger


Posts: 771
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: SE Pennsylvania
Status: offline
Anyone come up with an airframe production flowchart. (Japan)

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Post #: 208
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/13/2009 8:06:59 PM   
Barb


Posts: 1612
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Slovakia
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I just messed with Plane and engine production somehow with Japan. And I dont know if the japanese industry will survive that :)
Basically I switched some factories and enlarged some a little. With Aircrafts it was easy (total 104 size factories that need to be rebuild or were expanded). Then I looked for the engines and was shocked! To built all those planes, i need to switch or enlarge 266 size engine factories total. All and all in something like month or two 370k supplies will be consumed just for this ...


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Post #: 209
RE: Japanese airframe production - 9/13/2009 9:08:10 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
I stop the production of - at least - 4 engines without loosing any significant combat strength or having to spend tons of supplies.
The production will only be enlarged in the franes that the supplies allow. But my total 25.000 supply per day will already have to build HI, Naval and Merchant shipyards as well as repair shipyards...


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(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 210
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