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Japanese airframe production

 
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Japanese airframe production - 8/3/2009 7:11:20 PM   
vonSchnitter


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Since I could not find an old thread on the issue, I felt free to start a new one ..

One has to start somewhere to come to grips with the changes in the AE database, right ?
AC production is one starting point.
The file attached lists all airframes in production or in R&D for Scen 1 at the start.
Since Matrix does not allow spreadsheets to be uploaded, I saved the file as a .txt with tabs as seperators between colums.
If your Spreadsheet proggy cannot read/import the file as is, use a word processor, import and use a "convert text to table function", then copy to spreadsheet.

Sorry about the inconvenience. If you have issues with this - or have a means to upload the file in a more usable form, just pm me.

I just hope, I did not miss a production center. If so let me know.

I will post a follow up, once the table is available.

File in XLS Format
Japanese AC Production Table

Cheers

p.s. any amendments/corrections/aditions are more than welcome. This is just my first shot at the issue.

< Message edited by vonSchnitter -- 8/4/2009 8:31:20 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/3/2009 8:11:49 PM   
vonSchnitter


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A few things I noticed while preparing the list:

a) Nomenclature between AE and Staff is not consistent.
Example: LB is short for Ligth Bomber in AE, while Staff uses the old Level Bomber notation.
b) Many old AC will be used in 45/46 to equip spawning air groups. Mostly for Kamikaze use. I presume.
If the WitP "scrapping" mechanism (no air group uses an airframe, no production going) is still in effect, it would be interesting to know what happens to these late war groups.
c) Some Air Groups are supposed to spawn, before their AC are in production.
d) The AC Production System is pretty much cluttered with a huge number of obscure late war models. With PDU on and Realistic R&D it would be worthwhile to investigate the "cost" of switching some of the late war stuff to earlier R&D AC - if possible ? Just to free up slots for more pressing needs ?
e) From what I could see, some of the old WitP upgrade paths for factories have changed. Establishing a new valid upgrade tree is of the first importance.
f) Under the same token: Matching engine production to airframes has changed considerably.

Loose strands:

Some of the later model Lilys are DBs now - while some of the old DBs (Ann, Mary) are now light bombers.

Helens are due to receive MAD, Sallies are not. MAD is supposed to help with ASW -if it does or not will take some testing.
Anyway, a very close scrutiny of the database for some of the goodies (MAD, airborne Radar etc.) may have quite some bearing on selecting production types and air group training.
Anyway - if the "goodies" could prove their worth, a new dimension to AC production planning has been introduced.

Looks like AE has more under "the hood" than meets the eye - enough to hurt the unwary.

Thats it for now.

Cheers

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RE: Japanese airframe production-Special Devices - 8/4/2009 10:05:10 AM   
vonSchnitter


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As hinted before, AE has some special "gadgets" in store for some AC, which may or may not have a bearing in production planning.

Here is a list of what I found.

These goodies are listed in the database as "upgrades" - same as drop tanks for instance.
If they are added/used like the drop tanks in the game, I have no idea.

One thing looks a little odd to me:
ELIM is listed as "Camera" with an availabilty date of "0" (drop tanks have "9999"). I have no clue what that means.

As far as availability dates go, the H-6 radar is a little late. At least according to Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_World_War_II_radar

Since the other dates are in accordance, it may be worthwhile to have a look.

btw. if the H-6 date needs changing, the early Nell should gain the ability to use it - again according to Wiki.

Cheers






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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 10:23:52 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter
b) Many old AC will be used in 45/46 to equip spawning air groups. Mostly for Kamikaze use. I presume.
If the WitP "scrapping" mechanism (no air group uses an airframe, no production going) is still in effect, it would be interesting to know what happens to these late war groups.
c) Some Air Groups are supposed to spawn, before their AC are in production.
d) The AC Production System is pretty much cluttered with a huge number of obscure late war models. With PDU on and Realistic R&D it would be worthwhile to investigate the "cost" of switching some of the late war stuff to earlier R&D AC - if possible ? Just to free up slots for more pressing needs ?
e) From what I could see, some of the old WitP upgrade paths for factories have changed. Establishing a new valid upgrade tree is of the first importance.
f) Under the same token: Matching engine production to airframes has changed considerably.

ad b:
I may be wrong, but aren't that other versions of the early war modles? They all carry bombs and are obviously intended for kamikaze missions. They can't even be produced before 45! They should obviously represent the training units now used for kamikaze as well as maybe newly created units with old planes. I hope there's some sort of "convoi" that delivers the necessary planes before the units arrive. Otherwise I doubt that anyone will build them!

ad c:
Maybe they'll come with planes despite there are none in the pool to represent pre production models like the Ki-44 in Canton. Otherwise, they'll just sit in the reinforcment list until enough of their type are in pool - so no problem.

ad d:
This will indeed be very interesting. Planes upgrade way less often to other models, one might produce the G3N till the end. So IMO, its obviously intended to let the player invest into the changes. He'll benefit from it.

ad e:
I'm working on it.

ad f:
like d). It'll need serious effort to optimize this but if you finally have a plan, it'll pay off!

@Helens:
Something that speeks for the Helen. It was consense here to equip the bomber squads with Sallys but Helens will be powerfull in ASW.


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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 10:28:59 AM   
Historiker


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I love it, that they've put the Me 163 copy into the game. I'll still have to test it, but it may be a gread interceptor for B-29, especially because of its two 30mm guns and the enormous climb rate. Any plane that starts also will engage! 

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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 11:12:59 AM   
vonSchnitter


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Germans can be very eh lets say "systematic", right Historiker ?

Anyway, here comes the list of AC matched with the new toys:

What sticks out are the Helens, Nells and Kates.
If the availability of the H-6 gets adjusted, the Nells could become the Patrols of choice to augment the Emily/Mavis fleet - if set to bombs only, even subs may suffer from them.

There is one thing however: The toys have some "load factor" attached. How that fits into the load-out/range picture I have no Idea.

Cheers




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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 11:20:46 AM   
Historiker


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I think about makeing a list that includes all possible ASW planes (with radar) with bombload, range, number of engines.
Without haveing the data, I'd bet the Kate will be the best ASW plane. It has a god bombload, good range and just one engine. I always prefer fewer engines to reduce costs, so the Loma seems to be no good deal if it can be prevented.

As ASW planes only fly in the backyard, speed and manuever can be ignored. Armour may help against SS AA, but I don't expect that to be a major thread, so the ASW planes can be reduced to the three points, I guess.


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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 12:58:33 PM   
Historiker


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ad b:
Timtom answered and it is as I expected. The late war Kamikazes arrive with their planes, no need to build them!
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2192396


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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 2:17:41 PM   
vonSchnitter


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Thanks for the Kamikaze info.

I had a rather close look at the production of AC as is at the beginning up the end of 43.
So far all available AC during this time either have an R&D plant going or produktion will switch from an older model to the new one.

Few exceptions to this rule exist.

a) Kate - there is one factory with no produktion (Hiroshima). In case of expansion, switch the factory from B5N1 to B5N2, since here is no automatic upgrade.
b) E15K1 Norm - a floatplane. Better range than Jake, better performance in general - however the Jake gets radar eventually. No units spawn with the Norm.
c) Nate factories will not autoupgrade.
d) No production of Tojos whatsoever, without changing things. And no airgroups coming equipped with them. However Nate/Oscar groups can convert to Tojo.
e) Helen 1a (future MAD) will autoconvert to newer model (not MAD capable)
f) Out of production models (like Claude) can be reintroduced - they got dumped in WitP at the same turn. I am not sure if this is true for all models.



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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 2:54:58 PM   
vonSchnitter


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Dunno, if this has been clarified before, but I find this paragraph in the manual quite confusing re reinforcements.


quote: "In scenarios with production set to On, all new air units (including reinforcements, reformed disbanded and withdrawn groups) must take planes from the replacement pool to fill out the air unit when it arrives. Note that reinforcement units will arrive with the number of planes specified in the editor. These planes are not drawn from the pool as they are deemed to have been supplied elsewhere."

(e-book, page 256)

Does that mean, a reinforcement Airgroup will show up with Aircraft for free, if so specified in the editor ? Even if the rquired AC type is not even in production and no pool for the type exists ?

And besides, does understrength spawning work ?



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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 3:12:58 PM   
Mike Solli


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I believe the last statement in the quote is in error.  According to the AE team, all reinforcement air units draw aircraft from the pool except those that come late in the war that are designated as training units (those that are supposed to be used as kamikazes).  They bring their own aircraft.

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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 3:34:12 PM   
Kitakami

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Thanks for the Kamikaze info.

I had a rather close look at the production of AC as is at the beginning up the end of 43.
So far all available AC during this time either have an R&D plant going or produktion will switch from an older model to the new one.

Few exceptions to this rule exist.

a) Kate - there is one factory with no produktion (Hiroshima). In case of expansion, switch the factory from B5N1 to B5N2, since here is no automatic upgrade.
b) E15K1 Norm - a floatplane. Better range than Jake, better performance in general - however the Jake gets radar eventually. No units spawn with the Norm.
c) Nate factories will not autoupgrade.
d) No production of Tojos whatsoever, without changing things. And no airgroups coming equipped with them. However Nate/Oscar groups can convert to Tojo.
e) Helen 1a (future MAD) will autoconvert to newer model (not MAD capable)
f) Out of production models (like Claude) can be reintroduced - they got dumped in WitP at the same turn. I am not sure if this is true for all models.



Thanks to both Historiker and vonSchnitter :)

Since there are not many factories we can just freely switch production in without stopping production of other models, thinking long and hard about this before turn one has become very, very important. A few thoughts (which are not necessarily the best way of doing things, but they may start a good discussion):

- A6M2 Zero production now upgrades to A6M2 Sen Baku, in 2/44... this will have to be changed manually to something better than Zeros before then. The questions are when, and to what?
- A6M3 Zero is not carrirer-capable. Yet, it may play an important part... how many should we produce per month? It does convert to A6M3a in 12/42, which is carrier-capable.
- B5N2 Kate... 32 per month I guess.
- There is no factory building C5M2 Babs... should we convert one? This plane does not convert automatically to anything.
- D3A1 Val production does convert automatically to D3A2, which in turn converts to D5Y1 in 11/45. Should this be manually converted to D4Y1 production in 4/43?
- I am considering keeping E13A1/1b production until the end of the war, instead of going with E15K1.
- F1M2 Pete is not a bad plane for point-defense in the beggining stages of the war. Later it may need to be phased out, but unescorted Brittish and Dutch bombers might get a nasty surprise once in a while.
- Should we continue G3M2 Nell production, or should we switch production to G4M1 Betty and, if so, when? It upgrades automatically to the G3M3 Nell in 5/42, which dies have radar, whereas the Betty gets radar only in 6/44, with the G4M2a model.
- The H6K5 Mavis has radar in 6/42. The H8K2 Emily gets radar in 3/43. The Emily is the better plane, so the question is... how important is radar?
- The J2M2 Jack is armored, and it appears in 9/43, earlier than the armored A6Mx models. The N1K1-J George appears in 9/43, and it is also armored. My thinking at this point is to choose only one for serious deployment.
- The P1Y1 Frances is armored, and appears in 11/43, one year before the G4M3a gets armor. How many units should field this plane?

Did not get into IJA planes, but please let me know what you all think about any/all of the above :)

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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 4:03:13 PM   
Mike Solli


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I guess we may have to bring back an old acronym:  TBO - Total Build Out.  Look at the total build out of each airframe to estimate what to produce, to include upgrades.

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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 4:07:16 PM   
Sardaukar


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Have you checked if those radar devices actually come available when planes do? I think they are placeholders until the start date of device has been reached. So you might upgrade to plane in hope that it has radar 5/42, to find out that it actually comes in effect on 5/44, for example.

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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 6:24:40 PM   
vonSchnitter


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re arrival dates: To me it looks like airframes and radars etc. have their own indipendant arrival dates.

IJN Transports:

Well, it looks like the popular Tabby is a long way off.
At the start, there are only 2 IJN tranport groups around (the third listed is just a detachment)

Only 8 more will become available, the first (Tina) in 06/43 - rest in 44, and in order to receive them all 4 different AC types have to enter production ! (see List)

Preliminary testing shows that "floaters" can transfer troops to bases without an AF - or even air-support.
A big plus. However, the 4Es are "expensive" both in production and in maintenance.

I tried to figure out, if the "floaters" are included in the af stacking rule, however, during the "test" the overstacking * supposed to show did not show at all - evene with hundreds of AC in a size one AF.
A graphics issue on my system - or is this a more general problem ?

At the moment I would think, grounding the Tinas as much as possible, producing the early Mavis in small quantities and introducing the Tabby is the ticket.
That would leave me minus 3 Betty and one Emily transport group. However, 3 R&D slots (Late Mavis, Emily, Betty) are freed up. The Betty in 44/10 may not be maintainable anyway, due to shortages in the production system at the time.







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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/4/2009 8:05:37 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter
a) Kate - there is one factory with no produktion (Hiroshima). In case of expansion, switch the factory from B5N1 to B5N2, since here is no automatic upgrade.
b) E15K1 Norm - a floatplane. Better range than Jake, better performance in general - however the Jake gets radar eventually. No units spawn with the Norm.
c) Nate factories will not autoupgrade.
d) No production of Tojos whatsoever, without changing things. And no airgroups coming equipped with them. However Nate/Oscar groups can convert to Tojo.
e) Helen 1a (future MAD) will autoconvert to newer model (not MAD capable)
f) Out of production models (like Claude) can be reintroduced - they got dumped in WitP at the same turn. I am not sure if this is true for all models.

ad a
Do both have the Radar/MAD? If so, nice to keep it in production and finally stop it when the pool is big enough in 42. As soon as the carrier's Kates are replaced (I'm optimistic, still carrier left ) You should have enough of them for years of ASW duty.

ad b
Seems to me like a "why build then"? Floatplanes will always just play a neglible part. The patrol boats have en enourmus range and carriers use DBs for naval search. The few SCTFs without CVs will do fine with the Jake. Land based FPs will be great for ASW duty with radar, especially as they are also usable from undeveloped bases by AVs where the Kates can't do their job. So I don't think I'm going to build it.

ad c
I'd recoment to stop the production of Nakajima Kotobuki immediately and when they're used up, convert the Nate factorys.

ad d
So use the Nate factories, no?

ad e
Can the autoupgrade be stopped? If no, is the Helen really needed for ASW? It has two engines and the ranges of Kate and Jake aren't that shorter.

ad f
It should be tested whether they immediately (or within some days) upgrade along their upgrade path. If not, we have a solution for (e)


quote:

- A6M2 Zero production now upgrades to A6M2 Sen Baku, in 2/44... this will have to be changed manually to something better than Zeros before then. The questions are when, and to what?
- A6M3 Zero is not carrirer-capable. Yet, it may play an important part... how many should we produce per month? It does convert to A6M3a in 12/42, which is carrier-capable.

So the A6M2 until the A6M3a arrive. Then maybe changeing some A6M2 factorys...

quote:

- B5N2 Kate... 32 per month I guess.

That should be sufficiant, I guess. Less may also be enough as there are plenty of Kates when the Jill arrives, but we need a pool to replace losses after a carrier battle.
quote:

- There is no factory building C5M2 Babs... should we convert one? This plane does not convert automatically to anything.

No. It also needs the Ha-35. I'll most likely use them up and then let the empty units wait for the Myrt.

quote:

- D3A1 Val production does convert automatically to D3A2, which in turn converts to D5Y1 in 11/45. Should this be manually converted to D4Y1 production in 4/43?

The D5Y1 is the Kami version of the D3A1, no? If so, of course convert to Judy. Even if not, they have to be stopped after Judy introduction. No need for obsolete DBs!

quote:

- I am considering keeping E13A1/1b production until the end of the war, instead of going with E15K1.

That's what I'll do. They'll stay usefull ASW platforms throughout the war.

quote:

- F1M2 Pete is not a bad plane for point-defense in the beggining stages of the war. Later it may need to be phased out, but unescorted Brittish and Dutch bombers might get a nasty surprise once in a while.

I'll stop them immediately. The few existing are enough IMO, no need to build additional ones!

quote:

- Should we continue G3M2 Nell production, or should we switch production to G4M1 Betty and, if so, when? It upgrades automatically to the G3M3 Nell in 5/42, which dies have radar, whereas the Betty gets radar only in 6/44, with the G4M2a model.

The G3N3 may be produced on until its engines are needed for Ki-102 and Ki-100 IMO

quote:

- The H6K5 Mavis has radar in 6/42. The H8K2 Emily gets radar in 3/43. The Emily is the better plane, so the question is... how important is radar?

It won't have radar before the radar itself arrives. As this should be later: Swich to Emily as soon as there are no more Mavis!

quote:

- The J2M2 Jack is armored, and it appears in 9/43, earlier than the armored A6Mx models. The N1K1-J George appears in 9/43, and it is also armored. My thinking at this point is to choose only one for serious deployment.

Both have factorys producing them, both have different engines. I'd propose to produce both but to decide looking at the engines which to increase.
quote:


- The P1Y1 Frances is armored, and appears in 11/43, one year before the G4M3a gets armor. How many units should field this plane?

As many as you can afford.


@vonSchnitter / Transports
I have to look at the engines more closely, but I tend to keep production of L2D2 as workhorse, G4M1-L for ordinary LR transport and the H8K2-L for emergency LR transport. The production of the rest should be stopped IMO, especially the Mavis transports.

< Message edited by Historiker -- 8/4/2009 8:07:52 PM >


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Zero Pilot Replacements - 8/5/2009 10:23:37 AM   
vonSchnitter


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Just had an idea last night - toothbrush in hand - I had to return to satisfy one more curiosity of mine....

If I recollect right, in some WitP scenarios pilot replacements came for free when playing non-historic start - move 0 so to speak.

Here are some observations - needs a much closer look. I only checked with Scen 1

a) day 0 replacements are taken from the pilot pool - no freebies here.
b) IJN fighter pilots on day 0 come with very low exp. ratings - about the national average.
c) IJN fighter pilots on day 1 come with very high exp. ratings !
d) Other IJN replacements follow the normal pattern.
e) I am not sure, if the replacement exp. spread for day 0 or day 1 is different for non IJN fighter units.
(not enough data as of yet)

Anyway: Filling IJN fighter units with pilots on day 0 is a sure way to render them useless.



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Post #: 17
IJN AC Evaluation Chart - 8/5/2009 11:05:02 AM   
vonSchnitter


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Ok,

here is my attempt on putting most of the AC specific data into one table for the IJN.
(IJA is in the making)

I have not included weapon info at this time, even though I am aware the pertinent info may have an impact on type selection.

Please note: The upgrade to field contains info on factory upgrades - not PDU off unit upgrades.

here is a link to the speadsheet:

IJN AC Comparison XLS

and here is a preview (sorted by type and availability)






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RE: Zero Pilot Replacements - 8/5/2009 1:30:36 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Just had an idea last night - toothbrush in hand - I had to return to satisfy one more curiosity of mine....

If I recollect right, in some WitP scenarios pilot replacements came for free when playing non-historic start - move 0 so to speak.

Here are some observations - needs a much closer look. I only checked with Scen 1

a) day 0 replacements are taken from the pilot pool - no freebies here.
b) IJN fighter pilots on day 0 come with very low exp. ratings - about the national average.
c) IJN fighter pilots on day 1 come with very high exp. ratings !
d) Other IJN replacements follow the normal pattern.
e) I am not sure, if the replacement exp. spread for day 0 or day 1 is different for non IJN fighter units.
(not enough data as of yet)

Anyway: Filling IJN fighter units with pilots on day 0 is a sure way to render them useless.



Item "b" is a known glitch. Item "c" is very interesting. I wonder if "b" was meant to be that way. Doesn't make sense though. They're looking at it and discovered a couple other weird things. I expect "b" to be fixed in the patch.

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RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 1:39:19 PM   
Kitakami

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Have you checked if those radar devices actually come available when planes do? I think they are placeholders until the start date of device has been reached. So you might upgrade to plane in hope that it has radar 5/42, to find out that it actually comes in effect on 5/44, for example.


Hmm... had not thought of that, thanks!

Let's see... Japanese H-6 Radar (device number 1920) becomes available in June of '44... hmm... so, before that date, it is a non-factor. That means Betties over Nells, and Emilys over Mavises.

Thanks again for the heads up :)

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Post #: 20
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 2:07:52 PM   
vonSchnitter


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@ Mike Solli - thanks for the confirmation ! So it is not my toothpaste ...

@ Kitakami - that is exactly how I read this as well.
The problem is, that the H-6 situation is - to my lights - not in line with the rest of the rather "interesting" ideas of IJ AC production issues.

I do not have any other sources than "wiki" - for what it is worth - but an earlier date for the H-6 would add a couple of interesting "twists" to the Gordian Knot of the IJ AC production problem.


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Post #: 21
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 3:46:48 PM   
vonSchnitter


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Allright - almost there ....

here is the .xls for the IJA
IJA AC Chart

and here is a combined file for both IJN and IJA.
All IJ AC Comparison chart

Even though I offer these files as I get them readied - which means I have very little prior time to look really close - my impression of the IJ AC production system so far can be summarized in one expression: booby-trapped. Of course, this is more of a gut-feeling going by numbers, than much of playing and testing.

My apologies to readers/contributors to this thread so far. If you think I do keep batting without regard to balls flying - even those going in my direction - you are probably right.
But consider: When I started the thread I was as naive as anyone else - or even more so, sometimes the yourney is worthwhile the effort alone. My goal was to dig the numbers before going to conclusions - which in turn may be worth evaluation by game moves. And this turned out to be more envolved than I thought ....

I just hope you concur at this point of time with my approach - till more sophisticated tools become available.

If credit is due for digging the data, it goes to witpstaff and the good souls running this show. I just extracted and edited what the util had to offer.

One more thing to do:

Engine production.



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Post #: 22
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 3:49:27 PM   
Mike Solli


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What do you mean "booby-trapped"?

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Post #: 23
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 4:12:35 PM   
vonSchnitter


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Hi Mike,

two excamples:

Helen:
One mark of the Helen gets MAD - the only one in the IJA menagerie
And the the Helen transport is by far the best by load and range in all the IJA transports
But: the Helen needs engines ....


Tojo:

no production, no groups ariving

But: available before Tony - and competing for existing engines (oscar) while the Tony uses a different production line.

Just the more obvious.

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Post #: 24
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 4:30:27 PM   
vonSchnitter


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well of course - booby trap may be a little strong.

But which of the choices do you prefer:

A German Dachshund having a go at your ancles

Or a German Shepard aiming for your butts.

And of course, you never know if both go for more "vital" parts of your male anatonomy eventually -

without testing there is no way of knowing.



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Post #: 25
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 5:56:41 PM   
Mike Solli


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Gotcha.

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Post #: 26
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 9:04:44 PM   
Mynok


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Guess that one good thing about small dogs.

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Post #: 27
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 9:07:15 PM   
Mike Solli


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Have you guys looked at the volumes of reinforcement aircraft we're going to get?  I thought I heard that more airframe factories come online during the game but am not sure.  I asked in the Economics thread.  If not, those air factories are going to have to be huge to have the pool required to fill them out, along with losses. A few examples of reinforcements coming:

Ki-43-IIa - 383
D3A2 - 345
Ki-27b - 252
A6M2 - 936

Yeah, I know, we don't need to be able to fill them out with that aircraft.  We can just upgrade after the unit shows up.  But we need to have some type of aircraft in the pool to upgrade them to.  Something is going to have to be expanded dramatically.  This is crazy.

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Post #: 28
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 9:13:15 PM   
USS America


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You guys are busier than a bunch of accountants on April 14th. 

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Post #: 29
RE: Japanese airframe production - 8/5/2009 9:14:58 PM   
Mike Solli


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LOL

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Post #: 30
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