ALLIED ONLY: aztez (A) vs erstad (J) ...2nd ROUND

[aztez]

Hi to all,

I will open an AAR on allied side of the upcoming war.

We agreed to start this campaign/journey propably more than a year ago when AE was far far off.

We are no "strangers" to one another. I had the honour of clashing againts Dave in the old Witp. That game thought me a lot. Also it says a lot that the game went into 1946 END screen. Both of us had really bad times with that PBEM. I got my ass wipped for almost 3 years than the tables turned.

Never did we discuss ending the campaign. We had few redos, received help from Joe Wilkerson how bypass a nasty bug etc.

Our last clash took about 1 1/2 years to get done.

Now that AE is out it will propably be even longer. Last time we used 3 day turns. This time around it will 2 day turns.

It will be a grand campaign either with december 8th start or scenario 1. I will post the houserules once we agreed on them. I don't expect to have much of them since our most important houserule has been common sense.

Here is the link to the old AAR if someone is intrested:

tm.asp?m=1027643

This will remain an open AAR until the 1st turn is sent. After that it will be allied side only.

Personally I'am honoured with this rematch.. and yes I do expect some serious butt kicking to be unleashed.

Stay tuned for more.

[erstad]

As aztez said, this is our second go-round. I'm looking forward to this, we both had a lot of fun with our first game and have a healthy respect for each other. Same sides as last time; I did quite well for a while as he mentioned, then got my butt handed to me in the last year or so. Essentially, I had my LCUs too far forward. I correctly assessed that if he tried to strike deep in my backfield he would take horrendous losses, but failed to realize that that could still be a victory for him. I made him pay for his audacity, but Japan was bombed to the stone age by the time we finished.

This will be interesting. I feel pretty incompetent at playing Japan in AE at the moment; managing transport and production are going to be tough especially since the "conventional wisdom" is still forming. But, tally-ho!

I'll be locked out of this AAR once we get going, and probably won't start one of my own. But if anyone ever has any questions for me, feel free to PM.

[aztez]

The houserules for the game and the setup

* NO resource bombings on either sides in China.
* Allied will not bomb resource centers at DEI in the beginning of the war.
* PP Must be spent moving the following units. Neither side can withdraw units China / Manchuko without spending according PP. This rule implies to the units at Thailand.
* A lot of common sense... this is the most important one.

We will update the game with patches as we go along.

Dave will choose the scenario but it will be either scenario 1 or scenario 5.

Here are the settings for the game:

[aztez]

It is agreed that we will be going with Scenario 1.

This scenario propably has the most balanced attributes. Lets keep fingers crossed that Prince of Wales and BC Repulse survive the slaughter. Hopefully Pearl Harbour wohn't be hit too hard.

Allthough luck really has never been my strongest point.

The other significant issue is that Japanese wohn't be doing any magical movement. As Dave stated it is still possible.

So basically just waiting for the file from Dave so I can enter my password and send it back to him.

I intend to use graphics with this AAR and thoughts about how I intend to fight it out.

If I have time might include somekind of smaller help file on things and what stuff you need to remember setup immediately.

...and yes hoping to finish this game within 5 years! [:D]

[aztez]

Ok. This is the 1st post regarding the future campaign. I'am dead beat after work but managed to think through Burma. (See the screenshot)

Dave is 1/3 done with his initial turn. I actually think that is fast pace. So the storm is coming.

My opponent really does few mistakes.

Anyway here is the initial plan regarding Burma.

I think I will do similar pictures area by area if people feel these are useful.

[Rob Brennan UK]

Best of luck

I'll be keeping an eye out on you [;)]

[aztez]

Nice to see you Rob! How is everything?


7&8th of december 1941


I did receive the combat replay from the 1st turn and oh boy it was nasty!!!

The Japanese hit Pearl Harbour and this resulted to bad results. I was hoping a bit better but it seems KB does carry a punch. Have a look...

Morning Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 180,107

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 68
B5N2 Kate x 143
D3A1 Val x 126



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 6 destroyed, 19 damaged
D3A1 Val: 2 destroyed, 13 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
PBY-5 Catalina: 23 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 3 destroyed on ground
P-40B Warhawk: 22 destroyed on ground
P-36A Mohawk: 9 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed on ground
SBD-1 Dauntless: 6 destroyed on ground
B-17D Fortress: 2 destroyed on ground
B-18A Bolo: 9 destroyed on ground
F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 2 destroyed on ground
C-33: 1 destroyed on ground
R3D-2: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB California, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 6, and is sunk
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 6, and is sunk
DD Chew, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AV Tangier, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
DD Downes, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2
DMS Perry, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hull, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Selfridge, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP St. Mihel, Bomb hits 1
DD Aylwin, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Helena, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DM Ramsay, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DM Preble, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Blue, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Helm, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Cummings, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA New Orleans, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CL Honolulu, Torpedo hits 1
DM Sicard, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AV Wright, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 1
xAK Florence D., Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
AO Neosho, Torpedo hits 1
CM Oglala, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DM Gamble, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Litchfield, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Allen, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Ralph Talbot, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DM Montgomery, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk


Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Airbase hits 37
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 227


I do not have the game file yet that pretty much 5 BB's sunk. BB Arizona, BB West Virginia and BB Maryland seem doomed too. This ofcourse unless this is FOW! Than again I doubt this since AI pretty much did the same on my test run.

I worst case scenario Pacific fleet BB's are ALL gone!!! That is bad news indeed.

It seems Japanese torpedoes are accurate indeed. Also the 227 runway damage basically means that the airfield is closed for good too.

If these results are true which I'am afraid they are than this leaves US with 2 carrier TF which I intend to link up. I read in the forums that if Japanese used a lot of torpedoes than it might be worth the clash with carriers. Hmmm, I doubt it though since this damage was done with single strike! There was no follow up raids againts Pearl Harbour.

Another bad thing happened near Malaya peninsula. You guess it.. Force Z got hammered too...

Weather in hex: Clear sky near Mersing

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 63 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 18
G4M1 Betty x 13



Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 8


Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 4 destroyed, 14 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses

Allied Ships
BB Prince of Wales
BC Repulse, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk


...the combat replay didn't indicate follow up airstrikes. This is bad enough though since BC Repulse could have been useful.

I'am really hoping for FOW since to me it seems that I lost the whole US BB fleet and BC Repulse. You talk about handicap.. and there you have it.

Nothing else worth reporting didn't show up. Pretty much the standard 1st turn and strikes.

[devoncop]

Hi.

Well I will definately be following this through to the (hopefully not too) bitter end[;)]

I like the text boxes describing your overall thinking and dilemmas......(of which there are a few just in Burma!)

Thats a pretty harsh Pearl result, and its probably as well there was no follow up strike.

Any plans to reinforce/relieve Wake with the two carrier TF or is it a case of trying to preserve what you have?

Also, what do you anticipate(given previous experience with Tojo!) will be his main targets. Given he feels he had his land forces too far South in WITP are you expecting a more conservative approach?

Good luck!
Ian

[aztez]

devoncop: Nice to have new readers around these forums.

I will load the map of India next and do similar kind of "thinking box" there. Hopefully fresh enough to have that done today.

Yeah. It was harsh. Allthough a bit too early to tell whether FOW played a part on this. As said though I think that feature wohn't save me this time around. My estimate is that at least 7 BB's are good as gone there.

As for the carriers... Not decieded yet. The Wake Island adventure might be too dangerous. Now with the new atoll rules I think I can recapture it later on. Allthough it would serve as an nice forward catalina base for sure. The only thing certain at this point is to link up with those 2 carrier TF's. Without seeing the actual game file I think I'am playing this one safe.

The IJN used quite a few torpedoes at Pearl Harbour strike but didn't loose any aircraft. This lets me to believe that KB is ready for few more strikes too. If I'am to engage him I think most of his fighters will be on heavy CAP since I don't expect him to strike again there. He pretty much achieved all there was to achieve and than some. So, the odds for cv vs cv encounter are not in my favour. He might be coming to hunt those US carriers though since my surface fleet is toasted.

Taking these into consideration I think I have to live with submarine warfare and LBA umbrella for now. At least the submarines are deadly in this version which I think is really good thing.

As for erstad as opponent. Actually not that easy to summarize. The most important thing is that he is reliable. I have no doubt we will see this one through. He really does not make many mistakes. In our previous game he could have taken out China but chose not to which speaks volumes.

I doubt he will leave central pacific "undefended" again. Nope, he will venture South but only when he feels he gains something from it. Most of his operations in our previous encounter were very well planned and I do expect nothing less here.

Basically I think he is one of the best Japanese players there are around. I seriously do think this way and at I know at least Feinder agrees with me. (Allthough erstad does not make a lot of noise nor postings on the threads but when he does you might take that advice very seriously)

I'am looking forward to an good and competitive game. I know that we can discuss issues when needs to be since both of us are willing compromise. He didn't argue when I proposed that China should not be resource bombed by either side. After reading some threads about the supply there I have no doubt he could have starved it to surrender.

Oh.. and I don't have the actual game turn yet since Dave is still working his moves.

[aztez]

India grand strategy part I ....

[bigbaba]

wow, what a disaster for the pacific fleet and what a good start for the empire. with so many sunken BB, the japanese bases will be safe from nuke bombardements for a while.

by the way:

i know your PBEm is new and there are only few days played, but did you noticed any kind of serious bugs in the GC yet, aztez? or some very strange results (except the laser guided japanese torpedos of the KB[:D])? 

[aztez]

..and India grand strategy part II.

[aztez]

bigbaba: Actually we have yet to make any progress. (the 1st turn is still on the works) It was bad day in the Pacific though as you said and gave him time to organize and strike at will. I had other initial ideas regarding CenPac but I can safely now throw these to the garbage can.

Definately NO nuke bombardments for me! I need to utilize my submarine fleet as best as I can. It would have been near total disaster had he sunken them in Manila harbour.

I didn't notice any odd results by reading the combat replay summary... just enough torpedo runs to last an lifetime. Very early to tell though. As an game in this magnitude I think there will always be some bugs and odd results here and there. The scale is just so BIG!

[khyberbill]

I am starting a PBEM and look forward to getting some good ideas from you. Two questions:

1) If Japan advances beyond a certain point in India the allies get additional troops. I am not sure where the line is, but certainly an invasion of Ceylon does not invoke the added troops, thus one may not have as many worries in Northern India as with WITP. With this in mind, why not shift your garrison weighting further south to the areas that do not invoke additional troops?

2) How do you get all those little numbers on your bases and what do they mean?

Thanks
Bill

[aztez]

khyberbill: I guess you got bored with AI too! [:D] (Nothing wrong with AI though)

1. I do not know either. That is why I intend to leave just garrisoning forces there and no Ceylon is definately worthwile target for the Japanese.

I intend pull as many troops as possible from north to south! The only problem is that units are low experienced and there really isn't much to go with at the start. The ideas described on the map still are the main guidelines here. So many things are hanging in the balance and the Burmese front just cannot collapse immediately. It needs to hold out at least months.

I will send the 18th brigade into Ceylon which arrives early on from Cape Town.

2. Damn. I didn't explain those. The map is actually made up by Marc.

Thread link: tm.asp?m=2189709

Basically it shows the following:

Portsize/MaxPortsize AFsize/MaxAFsize

below

Oil Resources

I find these numbers very useful. You can take a look and pinpoint important areas easily.

[aztez]

China part I

The map is huge that instead of writing into the map I opted to use coloured circles:

Red circle = Key base
Blue circle = Important base
Orange circle = Key road conjuction
Green circle = Bases / Areas undefendable areas, just holding and skirmish movements.

The first thing that comes into mind that flanking movements by the enemy are possible all over the map. Thus leading to the question how on earth to "recon" these. Only thing I can think of is trying to create some sort of picket line. Thus those frontier units would bring enough time to respond anykind of enemy flanking threat.

Ichang also in my opinion needs to seized and garrisoned from the start.

This is so huge map that personally I will create 3 armies. Army group South, Army Group Centre and Army Group North. Basically the option Germany used in WW2.

I think that the Army Group North and Centre should receive the most troops. Thus leaving Army Group South to be smallest of these.

I don't know how the Japanese side is setup but I would assume that the biggest push is coming through north.

I actually very happy we agree on NO resource bombing campaing rule here. I think Chinese would be in big trouble if that happened.

[aztez]

China part 2

Red circle = Key base
Blue circle = Important base
Orange circle = Key road conjuction
Green circle = Bases / Areas undefendable areas, just holding and skirmish movements.

It seems that the north is big supply center for entire China. At least Sian & Lanchow should be defended very adequately.

After looking at the units experience levels I think just small scale probing offensives are just from the start,

I do not intend to move too much allied ac power into China. Only if the situation really needs this to be done.

The supply will be the bottleneck here so I'am mostly expanding key fortifications here. Airfields can be upgraded later on when I do have enough bombers to spread around.

I think that the same rule goes here too. By reading the manual unit commanders that are poor just add burden to the soldiers. Thus I will change leaders on the big frontline units as soon as possible. They seem to give nice bonus which can be very important.

Overall feeling is that this theatre cannot be lost or.... well this time around I'am paying proper attention here since the gains / losses in performing here seems quite big indeed!

If you check the map in AE there are a couple of "DOT" bases that aren't build up but produce nice amount of light industry. These "DOT"'s need to be occupied in the grand plan. (I don't have AE open now so I cannot check the exact hexes but you will find them out). I missed these on the initial look but I guess that was maybe even intended.

[jrlans]

With regard to burma how do you plan on supplying your troops if you abandon rangoon as there is now not even a trail to conect india to burma?

Also any evac plans from any of the malaya garrison?

Finaly from my experience with the AI, China is a nightmare to defend. Consistantly low on supply (no change from WitP) but now the japanese can roll over chinese infranty easily. The other big problem in China is garrisons i cant completely abandon rear echelon cities outside the range of japanese para invasion because of the garrision requirment.

[aztez]

jrlans: Good questions and welcome! I will try to answer these.

First, Rangoon! I think the "abandon" is too strong of word. I will fight it out IF erstad don't push hard enough here. Allthough knowing him from our previous game I doubt he will come in Burma without enough troops. It is in his best intrest to conquer this area as soon as he can.

There are few factors why I don't see the point of contesting Rangoon.

1. The map is the biggest. IF enemy captures Pegu and I still do have important units at Rangoon than I can consider them doomed. The only way to withdraw is via Prome and the rail/road network kind of kills the idea since by the time my troops reach northern Burma there really is only enemy bases left.

2. IF that happens than the road India is open and also the Burma road to China will be doomed as an bonus. I hate to see that happen. I have no illusions that I can hold out in Burma without some sort of an retreat plan.

3. I will shift out all the supplies / oil / resource materials I can. Even if the Burma is an logistical nightamare than lets try to make it for both sides. This operation will not be easy due to enemy LBA threat. Thus AVG will stay in place for long enough before it will start covering the skies over Mandalay area.

4. Now that Rangoon is gone than what he has to do is try to sneak in some transports or bring them slowly via roads. If he tries to go via sea than I'am more than happy to bomb those precious transports.

As for supplies into Burma... well that is tricky indeed. First I will vacuum all the supplies I can from south into north via the games "needed supply" options. It will help a bit. There is somekind of supply chain from India. Not much but every bit helps.

Instead of bombing the enemy I will try to bring in supplies via air. So, capable bombers will be ordered on these missions and AVG will on the CAP. If he can't bomb the airfields here than I wohn't consume as much either.

That is the plan anyway... and as it goes good plans fall as often as bad ones.

Yeah. China seems nightmare and Burma as his little brother. I will be spending PP on leaders at the start quite a lot. They can bring in bonus in defensive and offensive warfare. Allthough it might not be enough it surely will help. At least I doubt my units will surrender as easily with better leaders. That is the idea anyway.

Garrison levels are a pain. Allthough if/when troops gain more av than it will help to reorganize those painful rear bases. Thus leading more units available into battles.

I do agree that the supply is very important in Burma and China. (Again the resource bombing agreement is a blessing)

As for Malaya.. well haven't looked it enough to make 100% call on that. At the moment though I doubt I will withdraw units there. It is a risky operation with poor fighters and can end up in a disaster too. I will look at the Malaya situation as well as Philippines tomorrow.

The most I hope is that those areas will buy me a bit time before they will be overrun. I don't think there is much else to hope for.

[aztez]

I will start working on the turn tonight once I get home.
 
Just recieved the 1st turn into my inbox. It might take a while to get everything sorted.
 
Lets keep fingers crossed that the Pearl Harbour strike was the new improved FOW in action.