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Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 4:56:02 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

This is in no way criticism of WitP-AE and Witp-AE team - they deserve GREAT admiration and thanks for bringing this fantastic game to us and continuing the development of our beloved WitP - I am merely posting this as a help for them to further improve the WitP-AE via already announced patches!!!


Like I promised here is my WitP-AE engineering construction speed test similar to what I did in WitP long long time ago (09/12/2004)!



My WitP tests from 2004

Here is link to original WitP thread:

Comprehensive WitP ENG unit testing...


In short this is what happened in WitP:

quote:


Tinian is SPS 1 (Port) - 4 (Airbase) and was set to 0 - 0.

I build it from there to 4 - 7 (i.e. MAX that it can reach).


I used 10 SeaBee battalions.

Since 1 SeaBee in WitP is 30 ENG squads + 30 ENG vehicles equaling 180 ENG squads equivalents altogether it means that 10 Battalions thus are 1800 ENG squads equivalents.


I build both Port and Airbase in parallel.


Port size:

0 turns = Port 0
2 turns = Port 1
5 turns = Port 2
14 turns = Port 3
25 turns = Port 4 (MAX reached - expansion stopped)


Airbase size:

0 turns = Airbase 0
2 turns = Airbase 1
3 turns = Airbase 2
6 turns = Airbase 3
8 turns = Airbase 4
15 turns = Airbase 5
30 turns = Airbase 6
39 turns = Airbase 7 (MAX reached - expansion stopped)


Very very fast... way to fast...




My qustions to WitP-AE team during WitP-AE developement from 2008

Here are links when I asked WitP-AE team during development if this was fixed:

Construction speed...



My brand new WitP-AE tests from late July 2009

I created brand new WitP-AE scenario "Tinian ENG TEST" based on Kristian's "Battle of the Coral Sea".

The map only includes the small part of the Marianas (i.e. just as I did 5 years ago with WitP).


Here is what happened in WitP-AE (you can see what was in WitP above)...





June 1st 1944

Tinian is SPS 1 (Port) - 4 (Airbase) and was set to 0 - 0.

I build it from there to 4 - 7 (i.e. MAX that it can reach).


I used 10 USN SeaBee units.

Since 1 SeaBee in WitP-AE is 18 ENG squads + 8 ENG vehicles equaling 40 ENG squads equivalents (1 vehicle = 5 ENG squads) altogether it means that 10 Battalions thus are 580 ENG squads equivalents (10x 58 = 580).


Please note that WitP-AE differs from WitP in SeeBees unit composition!


I build both Port and Airbase in parallel.


Port size:

0 turns = Port 0
2 turns = Port 1
6 turns = Port 2
16 turns = Port 3
29 turns = Port 4 (MAX reached - expansion stopped)


Airbase size:

0 turns = Airbase 0
2 turns = Airbase 1
4 turns = Airbase 2
6 turns = Airbase 3
10 turns = Airbase 4
18 turns = Airbase 5
34 turns = Airbase 6
44 turns = Airbase 7 (MAX reached - expansion stopped)

19150 supply points used altogether for construction.


In link below you can find scenario I created for this testing:

WitP-AE Tinian ENG TEST Scenario.



Discussion

Same as it was in WitP the WitP-AE construction seems accelerated at least 5 (five) times!

IIRC the SeeBees had to work around 5 months to make Tinian to full capacity!


Thus, I humbly ask WitP-AE programmers to please take a look at this, check their data, and slow down the construction accordingly!


Thanks in advance guys!!!



Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
Post #: 1
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 5:05:48 PM   
jjax


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While i agree that construction is a little fast, i don't think it should be slowed down that much. Can you imaging waiting 5 months worth of turns to get a port to full capacity. At the very least, the speed it is now keeps things rolling.

Your post does bring up a good point. It is tough to find a the line between realism and playability when making a game like this. I would like to complement the AE team for coming closer than most other developers.


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Post #: 2
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 5:07:27 PM   
herwin

 

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There was a recent discussion of this triggered by a PBEM I was involved in. The underlying problem is a failure to model diminishing returns correctly. Something about getting a newborne in a month using nine women. Stacking limits begin to address this, but not completely.

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"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

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Post #: 3
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 5:20:04 PM   
bilbow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

While i agree that construction is a little fast, i don't think it should be slowed down that much. Can you imaging waiting 5 months worth of turns to get a port to full capacity. At the very least, the speed it is now keeps things rolling.

Your post does bring up a good point. It is tough to find a the line between realism and playability when making a game like this. I would like to complement the AE team for coming closer than most other developers.



Base building times are a critical component to keeping the pace of the whole game within reasonable bounds. In WITP the Jap could use mines (in over abundance perhaps) to slow the allied player down. Now that mines have largely been removed, what's left to slow the 43+ allied onrush?

Experience will tell, as there could be other mechanisms in play here, but hearing the Allied player can build bases at lightning speeds as in WITP is troubling.


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Post #: 4
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 5:31:09 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

Something about getting a newborne in a month using nine women.

I guess this should be tested somewhen!

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Post #: 5
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 5:43:01 PM   
denisonh


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How many engineers and vehicles were used to construct Tinian historically?  Might be good to know as we are using that example as a benchmark.

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Post #: 6
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 5:53:13 PM   
Apollo11


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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

How many engineers and vehicles were used to construct Tinian historically? Might be good to know as we are using that example as a benchmark.


I must check all those old WitP threads but, IIRC, it took around 5 months to construct Tinian base (and it was not start from scratch because there was some infrastructure already done by Japanese)... as for number of units involved I think that about 10 SeeBees was about right... but to be 100% sure we all should check our data and sources...

Thus if anyone knows detailed data of how many engineering units US used for Tinian construction and how long it took please post it here - thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to denisonh)
Post #: 7
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 5:57:28 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I think it would also be important to compare any game results to more than just one historical example. I appreciate you testing this, but the more historical data points you compare to, the better.

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Post #: 8
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:02:22 PM   
Apollo11


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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

Here is what I found so far... it was Mogami's post from 2004... it also shows why I choose to build from scratch (i.e. 0 port and 0 airbase) for my original WitP test...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi Leo thats a good test to conduct however you do understand the actual building of Tinian by the USA used 15,000 Engineer troops. Did not use the existing Japanese airfields and had B-29's operating less then 4 months after Tinian was captured. (Not bomb groups but there were B-29 flying missions from Tinian before the airfields even had hard surfaces! The 6th Bomb Group moved there for bombing operations in Jan 1945.
So you might say the Seebees did in fact build a size 7 airfield from scratch. They had a size 4 in less then 4 months (B-29 in WITP can fly from a size 4 airfield but only use extended loads and only fly normal ranges)

The airfields the Japanese had built and had used were smaller then those the USA had open in under 4 months. The USA did not use any of the Japanese runways but did use a number of existing buildings.


Now... the question is how to interpret the 15000 engineering troops (i.e. how many SeeBee units it takes to reach that number)!

In my WitP-AE tests I used 10 SeeBee units. Since 1 SeaBee in WitP-AE is 18 ENG squads + 8 ENG vehicles equaling 40 ENG squads equivalents (1 vehicle = 5 ENG squads) altogether it means that 10 units are 580 ENG squads equivalents (10x 58 = 580).

Can we say that 580 squads are equal to 15000 peiole or this number is too low (i.e. 580 squads = 5800 people)?

If it is too low (i.e. that 25 SeaBee units should be used) then the building times would be even lower!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 9
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:06:19 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 23534
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think it would also be important to compare any game results to more than just one historical example. I appreciate you testing this, but the more historical data points you compare to, the better.


Erik, in 2004 I used Tinian because it was suggested by WitP "insiders" - namely "Mogami" and "Mr. Frag" as best suited.

We can test something else as well but Tinian looks like great example because it was well known showpiece example!

Any suggestions for showcase similar to Tinian?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 10
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:12:43 PM   
captskillet


Posts: 2491
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I cant find any specifics but by Oct. '44 (3 months after landings and 2 months after construction began) B-29 were arriving and by late November were operational.
Maybe the results aren't that far fetched after all.

quote:

By mid-August 1944 Tinian was secure, and American Seabees began rebuilding a captured Japanese air strip at the north end of the island in one of the largest engineering projects of WWII. Less than one year later North Field was the largest airfield in the world, with four vast 2,600 - meter runways and a total of 19,000 combat missions launched against Japan.

Tinian got a face lifting which made it one of the most important bases of the war. On this remote rock, Seabees of the Sixth Brigade built the largest airfield in the world, larger even than Mayor LaGuardia's proposed Idlewild airport at Long Island which FORTUNE magazine (April 1945) had called the "biggest in the world." The total area of Idlewild wasn't even as large as one of the two parts of the B-29 field the Seabees built. The runways at Idlewild measured at 14.5 miles. Tinian North was almost 20 miles long. Tinian West is only a fraction smaller. Width of runways at "world's biggest airport" is only 300 feet. Large enough, but Tinian's measured from 425 to 500 feet.

The Seabees did all the construction on Tinian. No Army Engineers were there, as were on many of the previous jobs which were done jointly. Battalion builders hauled, blasted and packed down enough coral to fill three times the volume of Boulder Dam-nearly 112 million cubic yards of filling. And along with the airfields came the inevitable barracks, hospitals, chowhalls, BOQs, wells, warehouses, and chapels.

Tinian is about the same size and shape as Manhattan, and when U.S. forces occupied it during the war, they laid out a system of roads with the same general plan and orientation as on Manhattan. To carry the huge quantities of bombs up from the port at San Jose, two divided highways were built across Tinian. The GIs gave the roads names like Broadway, 8th Ave., and 86th street. The main north-south road, is Broadway, and it runs parallel to the other main north-south road, 8th Avenue. The fact that Tinian has streets named after streets in New York City has no connection with the Manhattan Project.

As soon as air service groups prepared the bases for occupancy, hundreds of B-29s began arriving in October and November, ready to undertake strategic bombing operations against the Japanese home islands. An airfield was ready for the first B-29 strike on 24 November. Camps on Tinian were constructed to house 50,000 U.S. troops and 1.2 million pounds of crops were produced, all of which were consumed on the island. By August 1945, a year after construction started, Tinian was the largest airbase in the world at the time, and accommodated nearly 1000 B-29s.

During the last two months of 1944, B-29s began operating against Japan from the islands of Saipan, Guam and Tinian. Initial bombing missions were flown during the day at high altitude, concentrating on chemical plants, aircraft factories, harbors and arsenals. Gen. Curtis LeMay studied the poor results and instructed the bombers to begin low-level incendiary raids at night. The raids targeted Tokyo and some of Japan's other major cities, Nagoya, Osaka, and Kobe.


The Link



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Post #: 11
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:19:16 PM   
Apollo11


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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

I cant find any specifics but by Oct. '44 (3 months after landings and 2 months after construction began) B-29 were arriving and by late November were operational.
Maybe the results aren't that far fetched after all.

quote:

By mid-August 1944 Tinian was secure, and American Seabees began rebuilding a captured Japanese air strip at the north end of the island in one of the largest engineering projects of WWII. Less than one year later North Field was the largest airfield in the world, with four vast 2,600 - meter runways and a total of 19,000 combat missions launched against Japan.

Tinian got a face lifting which made it one of the most important bases of the war. On this remote rock, Seabees of the Sixth Brigade built the largest airfield in the world, larger even than Mayor LaGuardia's proposed Idlewild airport at Long Island which FORTUNE magazine (April 1945) had called the "biggest in the world." The total area of Idlewild wasn't even as large as one of the two parts of the B-29 field the Seabees built. The runways at Idlewild measured at 14.5 miles. Tinian North was almost 20 miles long. Tinian West is only a fraction smaller. Width of runways at "world's biggest airport" is only 300 feet. Large enough, but Tinian's measured from 425 to 500 feet.

The Seabees did all the construction on Tinian. No Army Engineers were there, as were on many of the previous jobs which were done jointly. Battalion builders hauled, blasted and packed down enough coral to fill three times the volume of Boulder Dam-nearly 112 million cubic yards of filling. And along with the airfields came the inevitable barracks, hospitals, chowhalls, BOQs, wells, warehouses, and chapels.

Tinian is about the same size and shape as Manhattan, and when U.S. forces occupied it during the war, they laid out a system of roads with the same general plan and orientation as on Manhattan. To carry the huge quantities of bombs up from the port at San Jose, two divided highways were built across Tinian. The GIs gave the roads names like Broadway, 8th Ave., and 86th street. The main north-south road, is Broadway, and it runs parallel to the other main north-south road, 8th Avenue. The fact that Tinian has streets named after streets in New York City has no connection with the Manhattan Project.

As soon as air service groups prepared the bases for occupancy, hundreds of B-29s began arriving in October and November, ready to undertake strategic bombing operations against the Japanese home islands. An airfield was ready for the first B-29 strike on 24 November. Camps on Tinian were constructed to house 50,000 U.S. troops and 1.2 million pounds of crops were produced, all of which were consumed on the island. By August 1945, a year after construction started, Tinian was the largest airbase in the world at the time, and accommodated nearly 1000 B-29s.

During the last two months of 1944, B-29s began operating against Japan from the islands of Saipan, Guam and Tinian. Initial bombing missions were flown during the day at high altitude, concentrating on chemical plants, aircraft factories, harbors and arsenals. Gen. Curtis LeMay studied the poor results and instructed the bombers to begin low-level incendiary raids at night. The raids targeted Tokyo and some of Japan's other major cities, Nagoya, Osaka, and Kobe.


The Link


Hmmm... I don't know... more confusion...

In your text it says that final size the Tinian reached in 12 monts (August 1944 - August 1944).

In WitP-AE the largest Airbase size is 7.

I made Airbase from 0 to 7 in 45 days using 10 SeaBees units...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
According to WitP-AE manual B-29 requires Airbase 7 to operate.

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to captskillet)
Post #: 12
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:39:00 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Hmmm... I don't know... more confusion...

In your text it says that final size the Tinian reached in 12 monts (August 1944 - August 1944).

In WitP-AE the largest Airbase size is 7.

I made Airbase from 0 to 7 in 45 days using 10 SeaBees units...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
According to WitP-AE manual B-29 requires Airbase 7 to operate.


Keep in mind, according to the reference, the field could handle 1000 super heavies. That is more analagous to three level 7 airfields.

If you imagine that happening consecutively that is 45 x 3 or 135 days (4 1/2 mos)

In fact, AE can't even model Tinians airfields adequately (at least in capacity).

The runway was 1/2 the length of a hex

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Post #: 13
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:45:52 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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I am not to worried because something the test doesnt capture is th eneed to unload those seabees get them working and get the supplies up and running amd support to keep the Seabees operating.

Until the port reaches 3 or 4 good luck with unloading those bulldozers.

Assuming 15,000 troops/engineers up and running on day 1 is one thing 15,000 arriving over a long period far less worried.

What I am saying is real game v test bed mean I am not yet convinced we are wrong

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Post #: 14
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:45:52 PM   
Brady


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Thier are larger Air Bases than Size 7.

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Post #: 15
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:49:00 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:

Something about getting a newborne in a month using nine women.

I guess this should be tested somewhen!



General "Buck" Turgidson: Doctor, you mentioned the ratio of ten women to each man. Now, wouldn't that necessitate the abandonment of the so-called monogamous sexual relationship, I mean, as far as men were concerned?

Dr. Strangelove: Regrettably, yes. But it is, you know, a sacrifice required for the future of the human race. I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious... service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.

Ambassador de Sadesky: I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.







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Post #: 16
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:49:02 PM   
denisonh


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Excellent point.

From the time they secured Tinian, they had to get the engineers, equipment and material onto the island to begin work. That was surely not "instantaneous".




quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I am not to worried because something the test doesnt capture is th eneed to unload those seabees get them working and get the supplies up and running amd support to keep the Seabees operating.

Until the port reaches 3 or 4 good luck with unloading those bulldozers.

Assuming 15,000 troops/engineers up and running on day 1 is one thing 15,000 arriving over a long period far less worried.

What I am saying is real game v test bed mean I am not yet convinced we are wrong



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Post #: 17
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:52:05 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


Thier are larger Air Bases than Size 7.


True...but even a level 9 is "rated" for 450 aircraft, is it not?

Tinian was like a "dual-core" 9

(in reply to Brady)
Post #: 18
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 6:53:03 PM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


Thier are larger Air Bases than Size 7.


True...but even a level 9 is "rated" for 450 aircraft, is it not?

Tinian was like a "dual-core" 9




Unlimited at that leval, I belave.

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Post #: 19
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 7:15:55 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think it would also be important to compare any game results to more than just one historical example. I appreciate you testing this, but the more historical data points you compare to, the better.


Erik, this was discussed recently with historical data points. The base building model is seriously inconsistent with reality.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 20
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 7:29:31 PM   
Mistmatz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
...
I build both Port and Airbase in parallel.


Port size:

0 turns = Port 0
2 turns = Port 1
6 turns = Port 2
16 turns = Port 3
29 turns = Port 4 (MAX reached - expansion stopped)


Airbase size:

0 turns = Airbase 0
2 turns = Airbase 1
4 turns = Airbase 2
6 turns = Airbase 3
10 turns = Airbase 4
18 turns = Airbase 5
34 turns = Airbase 6
44 turns = Airbase 7 (MAX reached - expansion stopped)

19150 supply points used altogether for construction.

...


Without too much knowledge about the real war in the pacific and AE in particular, 19150 supply points sounds like a real bargain for a level 4 port and level 7 airfield buildup.
If this would be a six digit number the limiting factor for the buildup wouldn't be the time at hand but the time consumed to unload all the supplies required. But thats just an idea shootinh through my head, lets see how it will play out...

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Post #: 21
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 7:35:54 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Sorry Herwin I disagree try starting 9 of the Seabees at Guam 1 on Tinian and then try moving them plus the supplies into a level 1 port Tinian and see how long it takes to get to 4 and 7

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Post #: 22
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 7:56:25 PM   
JWE

 

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I will say this once, and once only. This was my perspective on the "Mines in the Pacific" thread, but it is equally relevant here.

The game attempts to be as historical as possible, in those areas IN WHICH IT CAN.

In those areas in which it cannot, due to engine limitations, it must rely on a more simplistic approach. It is all well and good to hop on a high historical horse, but if the game cannot replicate every single historical factor, especially the most significant ones, then all of the historicity arguments become fun, informative, humorous, but in the main, irrelevant.

I think this is just vapor.

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Post #: 23
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 8:09:09 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Herwin,

Feel free to provide more historical data points, the more that can be checked against, the better. As JWE and Andy said above though, it's important when testing like this to also keep in mind the other limitations that someone in the game has to deal with (port size, limited engineer assets, unload time, etc.) as far as how long new base construction really takes. Many of these other limitations are new to AE and I think they need to be well understood by the community before any changes are considered.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


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(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 24
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 11:14:45 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 23534
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I am not to worried because something the test doesnt capture is th eneed to unload those seabees get them working and get the supplies up and running amd support to keep the Seabees operating.

Until the port reaches 3 or 4 good luck with unloading those bulldozers.

Assuming 15,000 troops/engineers up and running on day 1 is one thing 15,000 arriving over a long period far less worried.

What I am saying is real game v test bed mean I am not yet convinced we are wrong


These are very good points Andy - thanks for important input with new stuff that WitP-AE differs from WitP!


Nonetheless building speed itself (i.e. not counting transfer of ENG troops and supply to place of work) is very very fast...


BTW, addidional test can be made with transport included!

What specifics you suggest (i.e. what TF / how big TF to transfer SeaBees and supply to 0-0 Saipan from Guam in my test scenario)?

Thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 25
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/29/2009 11:20:15 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 23534
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

I will say this once, and once only. This was my perspective on the "Mines in the Pacific" thread, but it is equally relevant here.

The game attempts to be as historical as possible, in those areas IN WHICH IT CAN.

In those areas in which it cannot, due to engine limitations, it must rely on a more simplistic approach. It is all well and good to hop on a high historical horse, but if the game cannot replicate every single historical factor, especially the most significant ones, then all of the historicity arguments become fun, informative, humorous, but in the main, irrelevant.

I think this is just vapor.


This is all OK and very valid - but here, I strongly think, is no problem at all with game engine!


There are two very simple solutions to fix this if problem /issue is recognized as such after further analysis:

#1
Adjusting the percentage of work done by single ENG squad

#2
Limit number of ENG squads working on same place at once


Those are things that game engine can handle (I am 100% sure of it)!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 26
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/30/2009 4:14:46 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Herwin,

Feel free to provide more historical data points, the more that can be checked against, the better. As JWE and Andy said above though, it's important when testing like this to also keep in mind the other limitations that someone in the game has to deal with (port size, limited engineer assets, unload time, etc.) as far as how long new base construction really takes. Many of these other limitations are new to AE and I think they need to be well understood by the community before any changes are considered.

Regards,

- Erik


This argument came up earlier--see this thread--if Andy Mac has managed to step on the problem using unloading costs, I say hurrah!

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 27
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/30/2009 5:29:40 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 23534
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Herwin,

Feel free to provide more historical data points, the more that can be checked against, the better. As JWE and Andy said above though, it's important when testing like this to also keep in mind the other limitations that someone in the game has to deal with (port size, limited engineer assets, unload time, etc.) as far as how long new base construction really takes. Many of these other limitations are new to AE and I think they need to be well understood by the community before any changes are considered.

Regards,

- Erik


This argument came up earlier--see this thread--if Andy Mac has managed to step on the problem using unloading costs, I say hurrah!


I am still waiting for suggestions of best TF to send troops from Guam to Tinian in my test scenario #2 (i.e. to unload everything to 0-0 base insteda of having it all on site)...


BTW, I am also very very glad that unloading slowed things down (just as it should be ) but proper building time is also something that, if determined not OK, should be looked upon!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 28
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/30/2009 6:02:35 PM   
AdmSpruance


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
Status: offline
Just wanted to add a couple of things here. I think that the max effectiveness for stacking engineer squads is 250 for a base so isnt 580 engineering squad equivalents overkill.

Secondly, in WitP you could stack 350 B-29s in a level 7 airfield without penalty. Isnt the maximum stacking for B-29s in AE 84 at a level 7 airfield to avoid a penalty?

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 29
RE: Comprehensive WitP-AE ENG construction speed test! - 7/30/2009 6:51:37 PM   
Sonny II

 

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline
There is no effective limit of 250 engineers. It is all based on the base size. The bigger the base the ore engineers can work on it effectively.

(in reply to AdmSpruance)
Post #: 30
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