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RE: Case White AAR (After action report)

 
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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 7:56:43 AM   
Joseignacio


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Then, how do you understand this?:

quote:


11.4.4    Naval movement restrictions
1.     You can’t move naval units between Kiel and the North Sea if an enemy major power controls any of the hexes adjacent to the Kiel Canal.
2.     You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Red Sea, or between Suez and the Eastern Mediterranean, if a major power you are at war with controls any of the hexes adjacent to the Suez Canal.
3.     You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea (even via Panderma) unless Istanbul is friendly controlled.
4.     You can’t move naval units between the Baltic Sea and the North Sea (even via Fredrikshavn or Kristiansand) if major powers you are at war with control at least 2 of Oslo, Copenhagen and Kiel.


I believe that simply if the mentioned cities are controlled by the germans & their aligned, you cannot cross any way to the Baltic by sea, neither directly nor through Frederickshaven. And I don't think it is allowed to leave a ship in the port coming from the North sea and then exit to Baltic the next turn. It would be a prohibition similar to Gibraltar, with the only difference that the port is friendly in this case.

So, the Navals can do a good job but the ships no, unless they were in the Baltic prior to the taking of Copenhagen by the germans, and if ever the british left Frederickshaven they would be doomed, because they would be unable to rebase to a friendly port.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 121
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 8:35:01 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Then, how do you understand this?:

quote:


11.4.4    Naval movement restrictions
1.     You can’t move naval units between Kiel and the North Sea if an enemy major power controls any of the hexes adjacent to the Kiel Canal.
2.     You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Red Sea, or between Suez and the Eastern Mediterranean, if a major power you are at war with controls any of the hexes adjacent to the Suez Canal.
3.     You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea (even via Panderma) unless Istanbul is friendly controlled.
4.     You can’t move naval units between the Baltic Sea and the North Sea (even via Fredrikshavn or Kristiansand) if major powers you are at war with control at least 2 of Oslo, Copenhagen and Kiel.


I believe that simply if the mentioned cities are controlled by the germans & their aligned, you cannot cross any way to the Baltic by sea, neither directly nor through Frederickshaven. And I don't think it is allowed to leave a ship in the port coming from the North sea and then exit to Baltic the next turn. It would be a prohibition similar to Gibraltar, with the only difference that the port is friendly in this case.

So, the Navals can do a good job but the ships no, unless they were in the Baltic prior to the taking of Copenhagen by the germans, and if ever the british left Frederickshaven they would be doomed, because they would be unable to rebase to a friendly port.

Frederickshaven is a two-sea zone port. Ships based there can operate in the Baltic. The same goes for Tangier and Brest for axis naval units getting into Cape St. Vincent and the Bay of Biscay respectively. So no you cannot sail from London into the Baltic in one turn but in two turns you can return to base in Frederickshaven and sail into the Baltic from there the next turn. You can even have more than 4 ships in the Baltic as long as no more than three are in port after return to base at turn-end.

And yes there is an element of risk because if Frederickshaven is taken by the axis, then all those naval units in the Baltic get sunk due to no other base they can return to.



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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 9:31:24 AM   
Caquineur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
Then, how do you understand this?:

quote:


11.4.4    Naval movement restrictions
1.     You can’t move naval units between Kiel and the North Sea if an enemy major power controls any of the hexes adjacent to the Kiel Canal.
2.     You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Red Sea, or between Suez and the Eastern Mediterranean, if a major power you are at war with controls any of the hexes adjacent to the Suez Canal.
3.     You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea (even via Panderma) unless Istanbul is friendly controlled.
4.     You can’t move naval units between the Baltic Sea and the North Sea (even via Fredrikshavn or Kristiansand) if major powers you are at war with control at least 2 of Oslo, Copenhagen and Kiel.



Hi, just to complete Paul's answer :

José, there is a note at the end of section 11.4.4 :

11.4.4 Naval movement restrictions
...
The “even via” clauses apply only when attempting to move between sea zones through the port in a single naval move. A unit can move into the port from a sea zone in one step and then move out to sea in the other sea zone in a later step.

Hope this helps

Alain

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 123
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 10:44:34 AM   
Joseignacio


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Thanks both of you. Could never have imagined.

I understood well that ships based in Brest can cross to any of both seas? And Italian ships can cross through friendly Tanger to Cape St. Vincent? It looks to me like an Exploit.

In this case (beginner question, I know) can a italian ship be based in Vichy France Tangiers for this purpose?



< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/6/2009 12:30:27 PM >

(in reply to Caquineur)
Post #: 124
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 11:14:18 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Well, its 3 resources, and in 1939/40 that's 2.25/3? BP's. I'm ok with losing those BP's in S/O'39 if I get continuous good weather(I tend to go two thirds Fall Gelb...so WAllies are under pressure immediately if the weather opportunity is there). If the weather turns worse than rain, the Kreigsmarine can take a naval and sail out(4, 1 and zero boxes) into the Baltic with cp's...so its unlikely the WAllies can do much unless they want to risk losing too many assets when the Baltic closes. N/D'39, and J/F'40 weather is expected to be very bad at some point during the turn, if not, then good for me in Belgium/France and I'll be ok with losing the BP's if the WAllies overcome my convoy protection. I expect to get those BP's N/D'39/J/F'40 since there should be bad weather and the Kriegsmarine is more powerful than anything the WAllies can throw at it in the Baltic. In M/A'40 there is also a likelyhood of bad weather at some point, if not then I keep making gains on the main front and happily lose the BP's(if the WAllies overcome the convoy protection) in exchange of an entire turns worth of fair or rain weather. Remember, every turn I send out SCS's into the Baltic I am sending them to the 4 box, 1 box, and zero box...at the end of each turn during the end of turn re-base...the 4 box assets move to the 3 box, the 1 box moves to the zero box(for next turn cp protection), and the zero box SCS's go home. I will also hold back a crappy 3pt FTR that can react into the zero box if weather permits. My style Fall Gelb is meant to keep Germany on a M/J(no later than J/A) scheduled capture of Paris. If turn ends, initiatives, and weather rolls really continually screw me, then S/O'40. With average luck, I expect to take out France by the end of M/J'40. At that point I am free to take a naval action. If France survives, then I keep taking the BP hit if the WAllies can deal with the Kreigsmarine...either way, the WAllies are also losing naval assets to combat actions in the Baltic. After France falls I crush anything in Fredrickshaven, and the WAllies better not have anything in the Baltic or it dies at end turn. If they want to send NAV's and FTR's, then those are fewer FTR's I need to deal with in France. France is the primary objective, not the 2.25/3BP's. Of course BP's are VERY important in this game, but sometimes players lose sight of more important issues such as: 1. Time, and 2. Strategic positions/objectives.


That's interesting but...dude...hard to read! That's the original "Wall of Text". Had the German Army been confronted with a wall as formidable as that in France they would have gone through the Ardennes or something. Oh...they did.

Anyhoo...paragraphs are the reader's friend

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 125
RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 2:55:32 PM   
ItBurns

 

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Ok, another noob question - why can't the Swedish resources cross the strait from Malmo to Copenhagen? Even if playing with limited supply across straits all you would need to do is fly a Nav out.

< Message edited by ItBurns -- 8/6/2009 3:24:45 PM >

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 3:35:55 PM   
lavisj

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ItBurns

Ok, another noob question - why can't the Swedish resources cross the strait from Malmo to Copenhagen? Even if playing with limited supply across straits all you would need to do is fly a Nav out.


Because of that paragraph.
"It can also cross a straits hexside from one railway hex to another. Each resource cannot cross more than 1 straits hexsides."

To rail from Sweden to German you have to cross multiple straits.

Jerome

(in reply to ItBurns)
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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 3:59:54 PM   
composer99


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There is an easy way for Germany to avoid giving the CW the benefit of the Frederikshavn strategic dilemma: on the impulse they invade Denmark, occupy every single hex adjacent to the North Sea. This is easily accomplished with a motorized division and the 6-move anti-tank gun. Make sure to occupy Copenhagen as well that impulse, and Denmark is sealed off until the CW is willing to launch a real invasion.

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 5:04:48 PM   
Jagdtiger14


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I'll try not to write a wall. Again, this is what makes this such an awesome game! Players can disagree and prove their points on the battlefield...maybe some day we will? Fredrickshaven is just one tiny little thing, and there are many of them. Over at the WiF list there are HUGE debates.

Reacting to moves being a small victory...very small in the case of Fredrickshaven, although the CW can make it a bigger issue the greater risk THEY decide to take in the Baltic, and also having a weaker defense globaly. Think about where else CW could place those MIL. The Axis need to be looking around the map for weaknesses. Early in the game if CW has 2 MIL there, then they are at risk elsewhere.

If I were to send one, lets say two "R" class BB's into the Baltic(not a bad choice to send two of those) I would select only the Royal Sov. and the Barham(I know, not "R" class, but the other "R" class are slightly better). In 1939 they would only make the 2 box and are unlikely to do any damage. More likely the French Subs would.

You are assuming CW has more luck than Germany. Lets say its N/D'39 and the CW BB's are in the '3' box having moved there from Fred. The Germans probably will have the Hipper, Blucher, and Deutschland in the '4' box, Schleswig-H in the '1' box, and the Schlesien in the '0' box with the cp's. Depending on weather...in fair both CW and Germany need a '4' to find each other, '3' in rain, '2' in storm or blizzard for CW('3' for Germany)...but if only CW finds they need at least 4 surprise points to do anything since Germany will have air in the zero box. Chances are that neither side will find each other in the typically short N/D, J/F turns.

C
quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

when the enemy is reacting to your moves, that is in itself a small victory. I would gladly risk a couple UK MIL and perhaps an "R" class BB or two for several German CPs and any of the excellent German SCS you can damage, when they will most likely never be repaired, particularly if you have had some luck hunting for the ore convoys. If you are fighting them in the Baltic, they can't be out raiding in the Atlantic. I wouldn't burn through too many CW assets to do this though, but there is more to it than just the BP calculations, and I think it is worth some small risks. Playing with or without Defensive Shore Bombardment is an important part of the decision too. As the Germans, I just simply don't give the CW this option without them tangling with a powerful corps in Frederikshavn.



_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to brian brian)
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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 7:56:35 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Thanks both of you. Could never have imagined.

I understood well that ships based in Brest can cross to any of both seas? And Italian ships can cross through friendly Tanger to Cape St. Vincent? It looks to me like an Exploit.

In this case (beginner question, I know) can a italian ship be based in Vichy France Tangiers for this purpose?



Tangier is in Spanish Morocco so unless the axis goes after Spain, it is safe from being used as a transit point for Italian ships.

_____________________________

Paul

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/6/2009 8:27:41 PM   
morgil


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In our games we have decided that you can not sail past the chokepoints mentioned, even if you are in that particular sea area.
So a German ship based in Le Havre (has never happend), can not sail past London, but must sail through the Northsea sea zone, it can not stop there unless intercepted, and it can only sail to the Bay of Biscay or another port in that part of the French coast, and onwards from there. Likewise a ship in Fredrikshavn can not enter the Baltic, if the opponent has blocked it.
But that is our Houserule.

København is a very important city for Germany, not only does it block allied access to the Baltic by ship, it is also a perfect place to launch a paradrop on Helsinki. The face of youre opponent as you take out all the Finnish troops from around Leningrad with a that trick is priceless.


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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/7/2009 8:49:41 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Thanks both of you. Could never have imagined.

I understood well that ships based in Brest can cross to any of both seas? And Italian ships can cross through friendly Tanger to Cape St. Vincent? It looks to me like an Exploit.

In this case (beginner question, I know) can a italian ship be based in Vichy France Tangiers for this purpose?



Tangier is in Spanish Morocco so unless the axis goes after Spain, it is safe from being used as a transit point for Italian ships.


True, I forgot, although I am spanish...

However, there is the possibility to align Spain under certain conditions...

(in reply to paulderynck)
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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/7/2009 5:48:33 PM   
praem


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Those conditions are holding Gibraltar as the Axis - if you hold Gibraltar, you don't need to bypass it through Tangier

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/8/2009 4:33:22 PM   
coregames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

Those conditions are holding Gibraltar as the Axis - if you hold Gibraltar, you don't need to bypass it through Tangier


The allies can use Tangier, however, once Gibralter has fallen, assuming the Axis didn't sweep up from the south in their drive on Gibralter.

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/9/2009 7:11:18 PM   
peskpesk


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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/9/2009 7:45:58 PM >

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/9/2009 7:11:50 PM   
peskpesk


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Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/9/2009 7:58:00 PM >

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/9/2009 7:49:45 PM   
peskpesk


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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/9/2009 7:50:58 PM >

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/9/2009 7:50:15 PM   
peskpesk


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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/9/2009 7:53:28 PM >

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/9/2009 7:51:37 PM   
peskpesk


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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/9/2009 7:58:23 PM >

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/9/2009 7:52:02 PM   
peskpesk


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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/9/2009 7:55:25 PM >

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/9/2009 7:53:22 PM   
peskpesk


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< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/9/2009 7:56:33 PM >

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/9/2009 7:54:59 PM   
peskpesk


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Case White AAR (After action report)

Notable events:
• No German portstrikes.
• Germany 150mm Artillery ground strikes and successfully flip the Polish FTR and 5-3 INF in Warsaw, rolled 4,10,3 and only missed the 4-4 INF.
• Germany 1-4 INF takes Frederikshavn and forces the Danish to sink one of their own CAs, the other CA escapes to England, rolled 4 and 8.
• A fast moving Germany INF Corp takes Copenhagen and even tough the Danish CP escped, rolled a 6, they are forces to scutle the unit when the Germans has control over the narry naval passage.
• The German forces sourround Lodz and a assult on the city is imminent.



Situation during axis second impulse and before Land attacks

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 8/9/2009 7:56:12 PM >


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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 8/10/2009 5:10:41 PM   
peskpesk


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Case White AAR (After action report)

Notable events:
• German forces assult on Lodz and takes it without losses despite defensive Polish HQ support and the Fact that the Polish bomber manged to slip through in the air combat, rolled 11 and a 10. The final odds was +9, but the Germans rolled 18.
• A Germany fighter is rebased to protect the fleet, near Kiel, from further harrasment from the Commonwealth.
• Von Leeb reogranizes a MEC on the westfront.



Situation after axis second impulse.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 9/2/2009 6:10:59 PM   
peskpesk


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Case White AAR (After action report)

Notable events:
• Commonwealth takes a combined impulse.
• France takes a land impulse.
• No Port attacks.
• No Strategic bombardments.
• No Ground strikes.
• Commonwealth debarks the Gort HQ on the clear next to Fredrikshavn and uses the HQ as a “port” inorder to also land the 7-4 MOT.
• France shuffels the units around on the border to Italy when the newly arrived Syria INF takes it placed in the front line.
• Land combat declartation Gort HQ and 7-4 MOT attacks the disrupted German 1-4 INF DIV in Fredrikshavn. Current odds is 12-1



Situation during allied second impulse after Land combat declaration, Commonwealth is pondering over how much extra shore bombardment needs to be added?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 9/2/2009 6:11:18 PM >


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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 9/2/2009 6:18:51 PM   
brian brian

 

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12 to a disorganized 1 = +25, no Shore Bombardment needed, Frederikshavn is yours automatically.

If the Syrian INF went to France then Oran or Algiers is vulnerable...

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 9/2/2009 8:34:54 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

12 to a disorganized 1 = +25, no Shore Bombardment needed, Frederikshavn is yours automatically.

If the Syrian INF went to France then Oran or Algiers is vulnerable...

Depends on 1D10 or 2D10 (though the results are the same).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 9/2/2009 8:55:03 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

12 to a disorganized 1 = +25, no Shore Bombardment needed, Frederikshavn is yours automatically.

If the Syrian INF went to France then Oran or Algiers is vulnerable...

Depends on 1D10 or 2D10 (though the results are the same).

It also depends on wheter there is some defensive groud support or not in this combat. If some ground support gets through an eventual air combat it is a 12 versus 2 in defence. 6-1 assault will be a 5-1 with +1 and that is not a nice table to roll on. Only 10% risk to take a loss but 40% to become disorganized. Having +15 on the 2d10 assault table is not that nice either when you have no real loss unit.

Therefore some offensive shore bombardment might be useful.

_____________________________

Continue to engage the enemy.

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RE: Case White AAR (After action report) - 9/3/2009 8:31:03 AM   
Joseignacio


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Or just a serious air coverage. Although your land-based fighters cannot reach at the moment, your carrier aircraft can make a CAP or even stay and intercept if needed.

The way I see it, the only possibility that the german has to add support is the naval squad (we can't see more in the map but it's unprobable long range planes at this stage of the game)... Not only the plane can probably be aborted in case it tries to ground support but there is also a possibility that it could be shot down, which could be pretty useful at this point, being the only german naval squad, I guess.

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