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Italians in North Africa

 
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Italians in North Africa - 7/21/2009 7:02:40 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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Something I have noticed so far about ToW compared to its predecessor RtV is that it seems alot easier for the Italians to maintain a presence in North Africa.

The Italians can concentrate in the Central Med with its combined fleet to protect supply convoys to Tripoli, but they could do that in RtV also. Here are things I am seeing new in ToW that make the Italians task easier in N Africa.

1. You can loadup a unit in Naples Taranto or other ports in Italy and then immediatly move the transport to Tripoli and unload. Unless I missed it in the previous game you had to keep your transport sitting in the ocean a turn, which in addition to making the reinforcement pipeline longer (2 turns instead of 1) your units were VERY vulnerable to enemy units at sea. I know quite often Italian Armoured and Motorized Divisions were sunk in the central med much to the Italians chagrin.

2. I have not once seen the 'Malta' event fire. I could be that I have just been lucky, but if this event is no longer present, then it takes a HUGE burden from the Italians. You had to be VERY careful in N. Africa as if you got yourself exposed at all then took the Malta event, the UK would frequently destroy a corp or two. Combined with point 1 above that meant you either had to go with a much smaller army, or you risked shipping replacements through the contested central med. And if you had your supply convoy shot up AND the med event in a single turn it could be a disaster. As it stands now, I find myself brazenly advancing with the Italian Army through N. Africa.

The OOB's have made some changges, I have to as the Italians detail some real forces to the defense of Tripoli (Corp and 2xDiv seems about right to stalemate the French in Tunisia) which I like, but on the other hand the ease of transferring units to Africa see me driving into Egypt with a plethora of tanks, and taking risks that seem too much.

What are other folks seeing in N. Africa?
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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/21/2009 10:28:15 PM   
Lehnardtsson

 

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You are right it is much too easy to win in N.Africa with the Italian

(in reply to Mike Parker)
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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/22/2009 10:13:16 PM   
JFalk68


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Well too easy of an AI or game mechanics is something that is making me wait on this game.

Italy was equipped for a colonial war, had poor leadership and lacked the drive to to win in North Africa. Not to mention they suffered one of the same problems Poland did, lack of trucks to rapidly move troops to the front. All those foot solidiers but they mostly had to walk, add also the fact that the M-13 tank was no match for any decent anit tank gun or British tank and you have a serious imbalance in North Africa.

Maybe Italy should have to do some major upgrading of its units before starting a campaign in NA? I want to have to make hard decisions playing a game like this. For example if Italy didnt invade Greece and just put its resources into NA would things have been different. If the divisions had more trucks and better officers? Can the game model this?

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Post #: 3
RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/22/2009 10:54:45 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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JFalk,

The Italian units are inferior to the British they face in just about every particular.  In fact unless I am missing something the only area the Italians have parity in quality wise is Air Forces.  The problem isn't that the Italians have better or even on par gear with the Brits, its that the Italians can build a unit in Italy, and seemingly ship it across the central Med to Tripoli with impunity.

I could be wrong, and it could be that in my admittedly small experience that there is a possibility that Italian's shipped across the med will be intercepted by British/French/US warships, but I haven't seen it.  In my latest game I have sent 3 Motorized Divisions and 3 Armoured Divisions across the med without any incident.  In other games I have seen similar results.  This combined with the lack of a supply issue from Malta makes things too easy on the Italians in N. Africa in my opinion.  One could always whip the British played by an AI with the Italians, but now I think you stand an even shot against the Brits in N. Africa.. that just shouldn't be so.  And I mean an even chance WITHOUT THE DAK!

One thing though, Doomie was pretty good about fixing RtV, I am sure if enough folks report the problem with N. Africa he will fix it for us in ToW!

(in reply to JFalk68)
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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/22/2009 11:10:08 PM   
Champagne


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Avalon Hill's Third Reich 4th Edition had serious restrictions on Axis strength in North Africa. If ToW's design does not or cannot provide realistic restrictions, then a house rule would be in order.

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 11:23:14 AM   
Anraz

 

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Fortunately TOW`s design allow to provide restriction in a given area. Lets say we could include some penalties for Italian troops in Egypt to simulate logistical problems or reduced its effectiveness in general or for given time as it performance was rather weak. Just examples - give us more hints so we will figure out reasonable solution.

(in reply to Champagne)
Post #: 6
RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 3:56:37 PM   
Slick Wilhelm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker


2. I have not once seen the 'Malta' event fire.


What is the Malta event?

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Post #: 7
RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 4:10:30 PM   
Hard Sarge


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Interesting complants, but from what I see, as long as the Royal Navy  and the French Navy are in the Med, it doesn't matter how many troops you send to NA, they won't have any supply to do anything

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 5:25:05 PM   
Uxbridge


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The sea lane from Italy to NA should be relocated to include the central Med. Even if this means an unatural long voyage in pure time, it would allow the Brits the possibility to attack with air from Malta or the Royal Navy to intervene from the sea. I think it is a must!

The high density of troops in NA is much more difficult to do something about, the game system and scale being what they are. The main problem facing Rommel was not Malta, because enough supplies to feed and drive his troops were landed at Tripoli almost for the duration of the campaign. It was the long distances that the supply had to travel up to the front that was the rub. As an example, from Tripoli to the el Alamien front it is roughly 1000 miles if you travel via the coast road. For a comparison, this is just as far as from Warsaw to Stalingrad, or from Berlin to the tip of Italy. Some supplies were landed at Benghazi and Tobruk, but these ports were far to small to recieve more than a token of what was needed.

Therefore, Rommel had to takes his supplies all the way from Tripoli to the front carried by lorries, and the longer from Tripoli he came, the more was the shortages felt. In the carried mix of food, ammo, spare parts, weapon, water (depending of where he was) and fuel, the last cargo type normally took up about a third of the space in the lorries. Since the lorries needed fuel themselves, they steadily consumed parts of their cargo as they went. Needless to say, the further Rommel got from Tripoli, the longer he had to delay his operations before he had enough supplies to fight and maneouvre. Increasing the amount of fuel in the lorries got him a little further, but then something else had to go, and the soldiers got hungrier, thirstier or had to shoot less. And the less they used their weapons, the more they had to manouvre, which consumed even more fuel. It was an impossible dilemma.

To a certain degree, this could be reflected in the game by lowering the Supply figures of the cities between Tripoli and Alexandria, so that the units could only move a number of hexes before they felt the strain on supplies. But since the supplies never would catch up, its only a compromise.

Limiting the number of troops in NA to its more historical level, could be accomplished by replacing a number of the desert hexes along the coast with plain hexes, and at the same time making desert hexes much more expensive to move in. We tried this and it worked fairly well, the only problem being the long stretch between Sirt and Benghazi, since we had no means to alter the terrain, only change the cost to move there. As supplies is measured at motorized speed, it was almost impossible to pass this stretch. If some of the coast hexes were converted into plain hexes, this problem would be lessened.

Anyway, if the above were true, it would be a bit pointless to move any but your best units to NA, since most of the fighting would be over a few coastal hexes, the desert hexes being very slow to move in. This might change the NA theatre from being a second Eastern front, to a place where most of the fighting is determined by technical advances, air forces and control of the central Med, not the number of troops involved.

Just a thought!


(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 9
RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 5:35:51 PM   
Panama Red

 

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The trouble with making desert hexs more expensive to move in is that negates the very principle of the NA desert warfare, i.e. "hook into the desert around the enemy flank".

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 5:51:42 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Hard Sarge has it right. The pace of the game in North Africa should be dictated by sea transport. Convoys and troop shipments.

The Allies have to hit the Italian convoys/stps in order to restrict Italian strength. They have to keep Malta, and they have to play hard to hold on to or take back Gibraltar.

In RtV there was indeed a Malta event which struck approx 1/3 of the turns, cutting Axis supply. Isn't that still in ToW?

The only other restriction in North Africa should really be terrain. I advocated addition of the impassable Qatar Depression near El Alemain. It's my understanding that unit effectiveness is drastically reduced there in ToW, but I haven't tested that.

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 7:02:31 PM   
Uxbridge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama Red

The trouble with making desert hexs more expensive to move in is that negates the very principle of the NA desert warfare, i.e. "hook into the desert around the enemy flank".


Yes, you are so right. But the problem is that the scale of the game prohibits this anyway. The maneouvres you're refering to took place one, two or maybe sometimes three hexes from the coast (with some notable exception). Most of the southern open desert hexes represented in the game was impossible to move in with larger units. If we could divide all NA hexes into 7 new, small ones, and the units schrank accordingly, we could still have the type of warfare that you (and I) would like. But this can't be done since we have to adapt to the overall game.

Most games at this scale, being computer games or boardgames, suffers from this inherent problem. Can't say I ever saw one that came up with something really good, and this is not surpring, cause it is an almost impossible task to do. One must find a compromise. Pretending that one can fight over a large part of NA could be that compromise, but then it leads to knew problems, one of these being Italians that swamp Egypt by numbers alone.

(in reply to Panama Red)
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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 7:09:53 PM   
Uxbridge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Hard Sarge has it right. The pace of the game in North Africa should be dictated by sea transport. Convoys and troop shipments.

The Allies have to hit the Italian convoys/stps in order to restrict Italian strength. They have to keep Malta, and they have to play hard to hold on to or take back Gibraltar.

In RtV there was indeed a Malta event which struck approx 1/3 of the turns, cutting Axis supply. Isn't that still in ToW?

The only other restriction in North Africa should really be terrain. I advocated addition of the impassable Qatar Depression near El Alemain. It's my understanding that unit effectiveness is drastically reduced there in ToW, but I haven't tested that.



Quatara should be there, as should a restriction to move too far south of the coast. But then, of course, the AI will probably cramm in units in the few existinging hexes, making the NA look like a crowded underground station.

As I said, I never saw a good solution to this and I certainly don't have one myself.

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 8:50:23 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anraz

Fortunately TOW`s design allow to provide restriction in a given area. Lets say we could include some penalties for Italian troops in Egypt to simulate logistical problems or reduced its effectiveness in general or for given time as it performance was rather weak. Just examples - give us more hints so we will figure out reasonable solution.



Mostly agree with both Hard Sarge and Uxbridge.

I'm guessing the solution will come along the lines of allowing Malta to have a more historical effect on interdiction.

However, please do not just nerf troops from a particular country as in "we could include some penalties for Italian troops in Egypt".

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 9:30:05 PM   
JFalk68


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge


The high density of troops in NA is much more difficult to do something about, the game system and scale being what they are. The main problem facing Rommel was not Malta, because enough supplies to feed and drive his troops were landed at Tripoli almost for the duration of the campaign. It was the long distances that the supply had to travel up to the front that was the rub. As an example, from Tripoli to the el Alamien front it is roughly 1000 miles if you travel via the coast road. For a comparison, this is just as far as from Warsaw to Stalingrad, or from Berlin to the tip of Italy. Some supplies were landed at Benghazi and Tobruk, but these ports were far to small to recieve more than a token of what was needed.





Just curious as I am always interested in hearing other peoples views but I was under the impression that Malta was indeed a huge sore spot with Rommel and the whole supply issue in NA along with Ultra that was able to help pinpoint when/where supply convoys would depart. I have read about the same problem you mentioned about the long trek which also was a great problem with fuel as you stated

When Malta was subdued with intense bombing in March and April of 41 the situation on Rommels supply was miraculous. He was getting almost everything he needed, fresh troops, replacement tanks and fuel. It was said more equiptment lies on the bottom of the Med because of losses to Axis shipping then due to losses on the battlefied. I have also read that Rommel argued incorrectly to put off operation Hercules in favor of pushing forward at El Alamein because he considered time of the essence before the British could build up. Would the NA campaign have been different if Malta was invaded in May/June of 41?

My question might even go further is one asks if instead of Germany invading Russia in June of 41 and instead waited till late April of 42. With the delay to Barbarossa could more material support have been sent to the NA theater to clean it up. If Rommel had 2 more German infantry divisions and 2 more panzer division under his command along with a subdued Malta would thing worked out differently?

Thanks, looking forward to hearing your viewpoint :)

(in reply to Uxbridge)
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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/23/2009 11:29:09 PM   
Uxbridge


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I won't let you drag me into some lengthy discussion here, but I have of course myself to blame, mentioning it in the first place.

The interdiction of the Italian convoys was indeed costly for Italy, but Regia Marina managed nevertheless to ship enough supplies to Tripoli to suffice for Rommel's troops, Italians included. So if the Malta interdiction hadn't been there at all, the supply situation i NA would still have been the same, the only difference being that the excess supply stores in Tripoli would have been much smaller. It was when the supplies were sent forward that the real problems started.

The above statement is not to say that the interdiction could not have made any difference, only that it almost never reached a point where it did. The only real exception seems to be just before the Alam Halfa battle, when so many supply ships carrying fuel was sunk (on their way not to Tripoli, but to Benghazi and even Tobruk) to cause a direct effect on Rommels operational posibillities. It was many years since I was working with this, so I don't have the figures at my fingertips anymore, but I think that if the Allies had doubled their average sinking statistics, it would probably have caused Rommel a 10-15 % reduction of supplies even at Tripoli.

When Rommel surged forward in the early part of 1941, it was not because of the bombing of Malta, but because he was so close to Tripoli, that he had such good supply situation.

If the Germans really wanted to win in NA they should have replaced most of the Italians with Germans and brought more lorries from Europe. That, of course was both politically impossible (Mussolini) and strategically unsound, since the vehicles were better employed in the USSR. The entire NA campaign was nothing but a delaying action for the Germans, while the rest of the Wehrmacht took care of the Russians. Now the Germans never accomplished the latter, but that's another story.

Now back to the game ...




< Message edited by Uxbridge -- 7/23/2009 11:51:45 PM >

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/24/2009 12:10:46 AM   
Champagne


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Perhaps the solution is to make Tripoli and Alexandria the main port supply bases with almost nothing in between these. Then impose strong penalties and supply loss on the lengthy supply line from Tripoli to the German front line when it gets to Egypt. Adjust things so that the only Axis troops that can be supplied in Egypt are two weak German panzer divisions, two weak Italian armor divisions and some Axis infantry.

"Design for Effect" here may be the only way to go for the war in North Africa.

As for the notion that British interdiction of Axis supply lanes over the sea was not terribly important, this is the first I've heard of it. However, the idea that the long, long supply line from Tripoli to Egypt would be just as limiting a factor makes sense to me. Sea interdiction was a factor in limiting Axis supply in North Africa, but, so was the extremely long supply line from Tripoli to Egypt.

The game's designers seem to have made a firm committment to continue to work on game DEVELOPMENT of ToW. I absolutely applaud this rare dedication. Let's look at some of the great board wargames that were NOT great when they were first released, but, after game DEVELOPERS continued to work to improve the design, these games became classics. Two Avalon Hill board wargames come to mind: Anzio and The Russian Campaign. Both are classics now, and BOTH required game development after the initial release.

Patching ToW is NOT simply for fixing software bugs, but, also for developing the game into a classic masterpiece . . . Right, Wastlands?





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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/24/2009 12:38:02 AM   
Agent S


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@champagne,
I agree it would be great to think, (and hope) that TOW was to become the next TOAW...


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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/24/2009 3:00:12 AM   
JFalk68


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Thanks for taking the time to reply Uxbridge :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

I won't let you drag me into some lengthy discussion here, but I have of course myself to blame, mentioning it in the first place.

The interdiction of the Italian convoys was indeed costly for Italy, but Regia Marina managed nevertheless to ship enough supplies to Tripoli to suffice for Rommel's troops, Italians included. So if the Malta interdiction hadn't been there at all, the supply situation i NA would still have been the same, the only difference being that the excess supply stores in Tripoli would have been much smaller. It was when the supplies were sent forward that the real problems started.

The above statement is not to say that the interdiction could not have made any difference, only that it almost never reached a point where it did. The only real exception seems to be just before the Alam Halfa battle, when so many supply ships carrying fuel was sunk (on their way not to Tripoli, but to Benghazi and even Tobruk) to cause a direct effect on Rommels operational posibillities. It was many years since I was working with this, so I don't have the figures at my fingertips anymore, but I think that if the Allies had doubled their average sinking statistics, it would probably have caused Rommel a 10-15 % reduction of supplies even at Tripoli.

When Rommel surged forward in the early part of 1941, it was not because of the bombing of Malta, but because he was so close to Tripoli, that he had such good supply situation.

If the Germans really wanted to win in NA they should have replaced most of the Italians with Germans and brought more lorries from Europe. That, of course was both politically impossible (Mussolini) and strategically unsound, since the vehicles were better employed in the USSR. The entire NA campaign was nothing but a delaying action for the Germans, while the rest of the Wehrmacht took care of the Russians. Now the Germans never accomplished the latter, but that's another story.

Now back to the game ...





(in reply to Uxbridge)
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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/24/2009 8:13:52 AM   
Anraz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Champagne
Patching ToW is NOT simply for fixing software bugs, but, also for developing the game into a classic masterpiece . . . Right, Wastlands?


Right :)

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/24/2009 3:43:28 PM   
Mike Parker

 

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Uxbridge,

While I don't have access to the source information (I am at work, and I don't know if I still even own the book), but I have read a very scholarly work on specifically the supply situation in N. Africa.  The tonnes of supply reaching Tripoli, compared to the tonnes shipped is quite telling.  In fact the book mentioned several times how reluctant the Italian Merchant marine was to actually even attempt the crossing because of how many ships they were losing, as well as reluctance of the squadrons at the Taranto Aerodrome to fly escort considering how often they were savaged by squadrons flying from Malta.

In any case though, the size of forces deployed to NA was limited by supply, whether its mainly the amount reaching Tripoli or the 1000 mi long route it took to the front is not nearly as important as the fact the Axis troops in NA were barely adequately supplied at their force levels, and another German Corp was something Rommel desperately needed, but could not have because of supply.

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/24/2009 9:01:53 PM   
Champagne


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Sir Uxbridge is right !

Here's the article link

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/JanFeb01/MS610.htm


I read this article years ago, but then forgot about it !

Thanks, Ux !

Wastelands, at least in North Africa, there should be a severe attrition on Axis supply lines from Tripoli to
the front line somewhere in Egypt !

Benghazi and Tobruk ports should not be sources of supply for Axis armies in Egypt.

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 7/24/2009 10:54:07 PM   
Uxbridge


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I'm a military writer. In 2003 I released a book about Malta, and in writing that I went through quite a lot of documents regarding the supply question. In the beginning I was rather convinced that I would only confirm the general view. But after some time, I realised that it was a lot more to it. I don't deny that many ships went down, but it wasn't enough. If Rommel had stayed in Tripolitania instead of rushing hell for leather in search of fame and glory, his supply situation would have been much better than for the average army in Russia. Thanks for showing me this article, Champaigne; I hadn't seen it before.

But as I said before, that Malta didn't quite do it in reality, shall not mean that it can't be done in the game.

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Post #: 23
RE: Italians in North Africa - 8/3/2009 8:39:39 PM   
Uxbridge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Hard Sarge has it right. The pace of the game in North Africa should be dictated by sea transport. Convoys and troop shipments.

The Allies have to hit the Italian convoys/stps in order to restrict Italian strength. They have to keep Malta, and they have to play hard to hold on to or take back Gibraltar.

In RtV there was indeed a Malta event which struck approx 1/3 of the turns, cutting Axis supply. Isn't that still in ToW?

The only other restriction in North Africa should really be terrain. I advocated addition of the impassable Qatar Depression near El Alemain. It's my understanding that unit effectiveness is drastically reduced there in ToW, but I haven't tested that.



I figured out a cunning way to create the Quattara depression if you like. Open the countries.csv and choose one country that is present in the list but have no influence in the current game. I picked Uruguay. Rename this country "Impassable" or whatever you think proper. That done go to the Ed in the Editor folder. Then open the scenario you like to change from within this program, choose the "hex ownership" tab and find the country Impassable. Now you can mark any hex on the map that you think should be impassable to land units. Since no player can declare war on Impassable, no one can enter this country's hexes.

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Post #: 24
RE: Italians in North Africa - 8/3/2009 9:14:12 PM   
doomtrader


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quote:

I figured out a cunning way to create the Quattara depression if you like. Open the countries.csv and choose one country that is present in the list but have no influence in the current game. I picked Uruguay. Rename this country "Impassable" or whatever you think proper. That done go to the Ed in the Editor folder. Then open the scenario you like to change from within this program, choose the "hex ownership" tab and find the country Impassable. Now you can mark any hex on the map that you think should be impassable to land units. Since no player can declare war on Impassable, no one can enter this country's hexes.

Marvelous

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 8/3/2009 10:09:25 PM   
sapper32


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I read somewhere that the Desert Air Force took a huge toll on Axis supply convoys and supply and fuel dumps and that the Axis had a lack of AA weapons to counter this as most of the 88s were at the frontline filling Matilda's full of hole's

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 8/4/2009 12:09:01 AM   
Champagne


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Yes. You read correctly. The Axis supply convoys had to travel down one narrow road that hugged the coast. Not only that, but, these convoys kicked up huge dust clouds that could be seen from many miles away. It was easy for an airplane or a "Rat Patrol jeep" to interdict that skinny little road.

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RE: Italians in North Africa - 8/4/2009 12:13:49 AM   
Uxbridge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

quote:

I figured out a cunning way to create the Quattara depression if you like. Open the countries.csv and choose one country that is present in the list but have no influence in the current game. I picked Uruguay. Rename this country "Impassable" or whatever you think proper. That done go to the Ed in the Editor folder. Then open the scenario you like to change from within this program, choose the "hex ownership" tab and find the country Impassable. Now you can mark any hex on the map that you think should be impassable to land units. Since no player can declare war on Impassable, no one can enter this country's hexes.

Marvelous


If Doomie is beginning to worship me instead of the opposite, my place in the world must have taken a snap for the better.

GW, you didn't miss this tip, did you?

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 28
RE: Italians in North Africa - 8/9/2009 4:08:17 AM   
carnifex


Posts: 1289
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
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One thing I don't like is that you can move a naval transport from Italy to Tripoli in one move and unload, with no chance of interception. The Axis have no trouble placing and withdrawing troops and there's zero attrition.

It doesn't matter what's in Malta or what Allied fleets are doing where.

< Message edited by carnifex -- 8/9/2009 4:09:09 AM >

(in reply to Uxbridge)
Post #: 29
RE: Italians in North Africa - 8/9/2009 12:14:37 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3193
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline
While I shamelessly abuse that fact, I agree that being able to slip in by may be a bit overpowering. However, as mentioned before, it's really the supply situation that seems to make it unreasonable. If there's a way to make the supplies more limited (either through malta or making the long supply line more difficult) then that would probably help.

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 30
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