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RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam

 
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RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/3/2009 11:01:37 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12896
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

233 years old... And you guys don't look a day over 217. Mazel Tov!


And compared to your lot, (Denmark and our other European friends) we are virtual children! Thanks Dad!


Well, you could learn that in term of Republic, you're older than much of the european country. I think some of the "younger" in europe are Nederlands and France (not sure, so please don't take offense if i am wrong). In a kind of way, United States of America show the way to "old" european countries.


Younger in years, not in spirit! Besides, let's not forget how many French troops where there with Rochambeau and the Compt De Grasse! They too shared in the creation of our republic! While France would wait a short time for it's own republic, we owe them a great deal of thanks for ours! Sop Viva La France! And thank you!


.
From what i remenber, most of the "american" thinkers (like Jefferson, Adams and ben Franklin) went to europe, and learn of the "age of light", from mens like Rousseau, Diderot, and even Montesquieu (although this one is from the previous century). The idea of some new kind of political state was in the brain, but of course, in old europe, most thinkers didn't dare speak or write too openly: most european monarchy were supposed of divine rights. The idea, like a seed, grow in a part of a country wich fell less and less unity with it's european part.
As soon as USA declared it's independance, and in the few years following, the idea of republic (and in some kind of way democracy) raised and developp in USA...and this time, the european thinkers learn from the american because they had tested and tryed what was just theory until then.
And i am pretty sure the help given to the new USA by France was much much in order to annoy hour thousand-year ennemy, the english !!
About the amount of troups: even if French, i am inclined to think the american won their independance by themselves: there was something like 8000 french soldiers at the most in the independance war. Not really much.


Actually, 8,000 men was not insignificant in the late 1700s, especially considering how far away from home they were. And it was more the principle of the thing, i.e. that France has intervened, and the war might shortly be fought on more than one front.


Terminus is right, 8,000 men were a very significant number considering the battles were fought with 5,000 total (both sides) ! And no other country had a fleet that could challenge Britian. The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 31
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/3/2009 11:39:25 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3864
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A toast to July 4, 1776...but what do we do about July 4, 1863?  On that ill-fated day, the Confederate garrison at Vicksburg surrendered, and the Army of Northern Virginia pulled back from Gettysburg.

Ah, well, even us Rebels can't complain about the outcome of our li'l ol' Civil War.  Happy Independece Day!


And the folks in Tennessee (Especially Vicksburg didn't celebrate the 4th og July till 1945!).


Oh, Steve.

Vicksburg is not in Tennessee, my friend.


OOPS!


He's an airdale. They don't have to study geography because they fly over water....


Never been to Vicksburg.Or Mississippi either. Spent a lot of good times in Tennesse. But , you are right, I generally try to avoid being more than an hour away from an ocean. Only the USN would think of locating an Aviation Anti-submarine Warfare school in Millington Tennesse (before they moved it to Pensacola FLA). But I can promise you that there were no subs on the Mississippi river while I was in Tennesse!




And we greatly appreciate that Steve !


_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley


(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 32
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/3/2009 11:42:58 PM   
stuman


Posts: 3864
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

233 years old... And you guys don't look a day over 217. Mazel Tov!


And compared to your lot, (Denmark and our other European friends) we are virtual children! Thanks Dad!


Well, you could learn that in term of Republic, you're older than much of the european country. I think some of the "younger" in europe are Nederlands and France (not sure, so please don't take offense if i am wrong). In a kind of way, United States of America show the way to "old" european countries.


Younger in years, not in spirit! Besides, let's not forget how many French troops where there with Rochambeau and the Compt De Grasse! They too shared in the creation of our republic! While France would wait a short time for it's own republic, we owe them a great deal of thanks for ours! Sop Viva La France! And thank you!


.
From what i remenber, most of the "american" thinkers (like Jefferson, Adams and ben Franklin) went to europe, and learn of the "age of light", from mens like Rousseau, Diderot, and even Montesquieu (although this one is from the previous century). The idea of some new kind of political state was in the brain, but of course, in old europe, most thinkers didn't dare speak or write too openly: most european monarchy were supposed of divine rights. The idea, like a seed, grow in a part of a country wich fell less and less unity with it's european part.
As soon as USA declared it's independance, and in the few years following, the idea of republic (and in some kind of way democracy) raised and developp in USA...and this time, the european thinkers learn from the american because they had tested and tryed what was just theory until then.
And i am pretty sure the help given to the new USA by France was much much in order to annoy hour thousand-year ennemy, the english !!
About the amount of troups: even if French, i am inclined to think the american won their independance by themselves: there was something like 8000 french soldiers at the most in the independance war. Not really much.


Actually, 8,000 men was not insignificant in the late 1700s, especially considering how far away from home they were. And it was more the principle of the thing, i.e. that France has intervened, and the war might shortly be fought on more than one front.


Terminus is right, 8,000 men were a very significant number considering the battles were fought with 5,000 total (both sides) ! And no other country had a fleet that could challenge Britian. The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.



You are quite right. I do not think enough Americans understand the importance of the help, monetarily and militarily , that the French gave us in our fight for freedom. To me it does not matter if the help came mainly because the French wanted to get back at the British, they helped us when we needed it the most.

_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley


(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 33
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/3/2009 11:58:15 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: vermont
Status: offline
quote:

The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.


The "colonies" didn't have a ship of the line for another couple of wars actually. The victory at Yorktown is very much owed to DeGrasse and the French Navy. The stalemate with England in 1812-14 owes a certain debt to a Corsican Frenchman as well.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 34
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 12:13:33 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2539
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Dontblinkyoullmissit, GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A toast to July 4, 1776...but what do we do about July 4, 1863?  On that ill-fated day, the Confederate garrison at Vicksburg surrendered, and the Army of Northern Virginia pulled back from Gettysburg.

Ah, well, even us Rebels can't complain about the outcome of our li'l ol' Civil War.  Happy Independece Day!


And the folks in Tennessee (Especially Vicksburg didn't celebrate the 4th og July till 1945!).


Oh, Steve.

Vicksburg is not in Tennessee, my friend.


OOPS!


He's an airdale. They don't have to study geography because they fly over water....


Never been to Vicksburg.Or Mississippi either. Spent a lot of good times in Tennesse. But , you are right, I generally try to avoid being more than an hour away from an ocean. Only the USN would think of locating an Aviation Anti-submarine Warfare school in Millington Tennesse (before they moved it to Pensacola FLA). But I can promise you that there were no subs on the Mississippi river while I was in Tennesse!


Yeah. I bet you got a lot of time using your MAD gear on the Mississippi..probably lots of boilers and other iron junk down there...
And locating the school in Tennessee, well, when I was in, the Nuclear Power School had the ships plant prototypes in Idaho. About as far from salt water as you can get in CONUS.


_____________________________

"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 35
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 12:17:50 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12896
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.


The "colonies" didn't have a ship of the line for another couple of wars actually. The victory at Yorktown is very much owed to DeGrasse and the French Navy. The stalemate with England in 1812-14 owes a certain debt to a Corsican Frenchman as well.


Sorry my friend, I must beg to differ. At the end of the war, Commodore John Paul Jones, in one of his last actions, Presents a gift to France of America, ship of the line,74 guns. (The continental navy was disbanded).

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 36
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 12:35:25 AM   
captskillet


Posts: 2477
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: Louisiana & the 2007 Nat Champ LSU Fightin' Tigers
Status: offline
quote:

You are quite right. I do not think enough Americans understand the importance of the help, monetarily and militarily , that the French gave us in our fight for freedom. To me it does not matter if the help came mainly because the French wanted to get back at the British, they helped us when we needed it the most.


Amen.....I think thats why Americans gladly repaid the debt plus a little during the first half of the 20th century............we do have quite a history amongst ourselves dont we!!!!

_____________________________

"Git thar fust with the most men" - Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest


(in reply to stuman)
Post #: 37
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 1:57:07 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12896
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

quote:

You are quite right. I do not think enough Americans understand the importance of the help, monetarily and militarily , that the French gave us in our fight for freedom. To me it does not matter if the help came mainly because the French wanted to get back at the British, they helped us when we needed it the most.


Amen.....I think thats why Americans gladly repaid the debt plus a little during the first half of the 20th century............we do have quite a history amongst ourselves dont we!!!!


Sorry Capt., I have to disagree, friends don't keep track of who owes who like some form of cold-blooded accountant's ledger. At least my friends don't. The only time who owe's what comes into when it's time to figure out who buys the next round. And good friends never push that.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to captskillet)
Post #: 38
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 7:56:12 AM   
gladiatt


Posts: 2528
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

233 years old... And you guys don't look a day over 217. Mazel Tov!


And compared to your lot, (Denmark and our other European friends) we are virtual children! Thanks Dad!


Well, you could learn that in term of Republic, you're older than much of the european country. I think some of the "younger" in europe are Nederlands and France (not sure, so please don't take offense if i am wrong). In a kind of way, United States of America show the way to "old" european countries.


Younger in years, not in spirit! Besides, let's not forget how many French troops where there with Rochambeau and the Compt De Grasse! They too shared in the creation of our republic! While France would wait a short time for it's own republic, we owe them a great deal of thanks for ours! Sop Viva La France! And thank you!


.
From what i remenber, most of the "american" thinkers (like Jefferson, Adams and ben Franklin) went to europe, and learn of the "age of light", from mens like Rousseau, Diderot, and even Montesquieu (although this one is from the previous century). The idea of some new kind of political state was in the brain, but of course, in old europe, most thinkers didn't dare speak or write too openly: most european monarchy were supposed of divine rights. The idea, like a seed, grow in a part of a country wich fell less and less unity with it's european part.
As soon as USA declared it's independance, and in the few years following, the idea of republic (and in some kind of way democracy) raised and developp in USA...and this time, the european thinkers learn from the american because they had tested and tryed what was just theory until then.
And i am pretty sure the help given to the new USA by France was much much in order to annoy hour thousand-year ennemy, the english !!
About the amount of troups: even if French, i am inclined to think the american won their independance by themselves: there was something like 8000 french soldiers at the most in the independance war. Not really much.


Actually, 8,000 men was not insignificant in the late 1700s, especially considering how far away from home they were. And it was more the principle of the thing, i.e. that France has intervened, and the war might shortly be fought on more than one front.


Terminus is right, 8,000 men were a very significant number considering the battles were fought with 5,000 total (both sides) ! And no other country had a fleet that could challenge Britian. The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.



You are quite right. I do not think enough Americans understand the importance of the help, monetarily and militarily , that the French gave us in our fight for freedom. To me it does not matter if the help came mainly because the French wanted to get back at the British, they helped us when we needed it the most.


OK you guys: 8000 mens on the whoole american front was for France something like a logistical chalenge. I still think France could have done more ? Even in the 7 year war, France had hard time to send troops to Montcalm in Canada. The british didn't had too much difficulties: it depend on the fact that Britain could defend it's shore with the "wooden walls" of her ships; France had to take kare of it's borders with troops.
During Independance war, France mainly ask volontaries in the beginning (Lafayette). Later came the regular troops of Rochambeau. But i didn't remenber that the sum of troops was so "light" during the differents battles.
Anyway,what is sure is that (i've taken back my history books this morning) Louis XVI, king of France, had some good feeling with the idea of republic. Of course, he wasn't ready to give up it's power (you can see it during the French revolution), but he was ready to make some political changes. In France, he never had the opportunities to do it: their was resistance from ministries, nobles, and so on; during the revolution, the changes were not enough for the revolutionnaries.
But, 20 years before, Louis XVI was much enclined to help a borning nation because it was "enlighten" by the new political ideas of the french thinkers, and may be this could be later a friendly nation (at this time, the power of France made that few countries were really friend with France, and (sorry for our english threadster) England was delivering some money to the countries in Europe who would keep away from France.
To finish: the whole reason of the help given to USA is in fact complicated by all the geopolitical hints of the era.
Anyway: enjoy your national day (surprisingly, in France,for 14th july not much people remenber what it's all about)

(in reply to stuman)
Post #: 39
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 8:20:05 AM   
thegreatwent


Posts: 3009
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
Marat, Babeuf, Rousseau all contributed to this great experiment. I think all can call ourselves "Citizen" thanks to the efforts of Franklin, Jefferson and Adams.

(in reply to gladiatt)
Post #: 40
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 9:09:44 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22590
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

Happy 4th of July to our American brethren!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to captskillet)
Post #: 41
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 10:20:40 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4153
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Just over there.
Status: offline
Actually guys, I think most of the major engagements of the American Revolutionary War had 11,000 - 14,000+ men arrayed on each side.
Siege of Boston 1776, Long Island (or Brooklyn Heights)1776, White Plains 1776, Brandywine Creek 1777, Germantown 1777, Monmouth Courthouse 1778 - all come to mind. I can't remember the forces engaged at Saratoga.
Really, it was only after the stalemate in the main theater of war (New Jersey - New York - Pennsylvania, after Monmouth) and the war shifted south - that the major battles got smaller. Heck, as I recall the Long Island campaign started with 20,000 to 30,000 men arrayed on each side ... before the maneuvering and garrisoning started draining strength.

Anyway, Happy 4th Of July!

And I hope we last a bit longer



quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

233 years old... And you guys don't look a day over 217. Mazel Tov!


And compared to your lot, (Denmark and our other European friends) we are virtual children! Thanks Dad!


Well, you could learn that in term of Republic, you're older than much of the european country. I think some of the "younger" in europe are Nederlands and France (not sure, so please don't take offense if i am wrong). In a kind of way, United States of America show the way to "old" european countries.


Younger in years, not in spirit! Besides, let's not forget how many French troops where there with Rochambeau and the Compt De Grasse! They too shared in the creation of our republic! While France would wait a short time for it's own republic, we owe them a great deal of thanks for ours! Sop Viva La France! And thank you!


.
From what i remenber, most of the "american" thinkers (like Jefferson, Adams and ben Franklin) went to europe, and learn of the "age of light", from mens like Rousseau, Diderot, and even Montesquieu (although this one is from the previous century). The idea of some new kind of political state was in the brain, but of course, in old europe, most thinkers didn't dare speak or write too openly: most european monarchy were supposed of divine rights. The idea, like a seed, grow in a part of a country wich fell less and less unity with it's european part.
As soon as USA declared it's independance, and in the few years following, the idea of republic (and in some kind of way democracy) raised and developp in USA...and this time, the european thinkers learn from the american because they had tested and tryed what was just theory until then.
And i am pretty sure the help given to the new USA by France was much much in order to annoy hour thousand-year ennemy, the english !!
About the amount of troups: even if French, i am inclined to think the american won their independance by themselves: there was something like 8000 french soldiers at the most in the independance war. Not really much.


Actually, 8,000 men was not insignificant in the late 1700s, especially considering how far away from home they were. And it was more the principle of the thing, i.e. that France has intervened, and the war might shortly be fought on more than one front.


Terminus is right, 8,000 men were a very significant number considering the battles were fought with 5,000 total (both sides) ! And no other country had a fleet that could challenge Britian. The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.



You are quite right. I do not think enough Americans understand the importance of the help, monetarily and militarily , that the French gave us in our fight for freedom. To me it does not matter if the help came mainly because the French wanted to get back at the British, they helped us when we needed it the most.


OK you guys: 8000 mens on the whoole american front was for France something like a logistical chalenge. I still think France could have done more ? Even in the 7 year war, France had hard time to send troops to Montcalm in Canada. The british didn't had too much difficulties: it depend on the fact that Britain could defend it's shore with the "wooden walls" of her ships; France had to take kare of it's borders with troops.
During Independance war, France mainly ask volontaries in the beginning (Lafayette). Later came the regular troops of Rochambeau. But i didn't remenber that the sum of troops was so "light" during the differents battles.
Anyway,what is sure is that (i've taken back my history books this morning) Louis XVI, king of France, had some good feeling with the idea of republic. Of course, he wasn't ready to give up it's power (you can see it during the French revolution), but he was ready to make some political changes. In France, he never had the opportunities to do it: their was resistance from ministries, nobles, and so on; during the revolution, the changes were not enough for the revolutionnaries.
But, 20 years before, Louis XVI was much enclined to help a borning nation because it was "enlighten" by the new political ideas of the french thinkers, and may be this could be later a friendly nation (at this time, the power of France made that few countries were really friend with France, and (sorry for our english threadster) England was delivering some money to the countries in Europe who would keep away from France.
To finish: the whole reason of the help given to USA is in fact complicated by all the geopolitical hints of the era.
Anyway: enjoy your national day (surprisingly, in France,for 14th july not much people remenber what it's all about)



< Message edited by Big B -- 7/4/2009 10:21:52 PM >

(in reply to gladiatt)
Post #: 42
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/4/2009 10:23:53 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4738
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

And I hope we last a bit longer

The free part of the rest of the world hopes that as well

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 43
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 12:53:23 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12119
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

Historiker, if you are in the North Carolina area ever, do PM me so we can enjoy some non-American brews together. I would enjoy that.

Personally, I'm quite grateful for the help that our French friends gave us during our struggles with the British. I do not denigrate that help nor overlook its significance. It was critical.

We have always been tied to our European forebears, whether we like to admit that or not. That is our heritage. We ignore that to our detriment.

But we must learn from it as well. Learn what to do and what not to do equally. Our forebears were not without problems or sin. They were flawed like we are.

Let us take a humble and historical approach and take the good with the bad, learn from both, and be an influence in the world for the better. In ALL the world. Humbly and with an attitude of service.



_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 44
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 1:26:30 AM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12077
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline
Happy 4th to all

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 45
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 1:42:45 AM   
RevRick


Posts: 2539
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Dontblinkyoullmissit, GA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Historiker, if you are in the North Carolina area ever, do PM me so we can enjoy some non-American brews together. I would enjoy that.

Personally, I'm quite grateful for the help that our French friends gave us during our struggles with the British. I do not denigrate that help nor overlook its significance. It was critical.

We have always been tied to our European forebears, whether we like to admit that or not. That is our heritage. We ignore that to our detriment.

But we must learn from it as well. Learn what to do and what not to do equally. Our forebears were not without problems or sin. They were flawed like we are.

Let us take a humble and historical approach and take the good with the bad, learn from both, and be an influence in the world for the better. In ALL the world. Humbly and with an attitude of service.




In the words of my profession: "That will preach, brother!"

_____________________________

"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 46
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 2:16:41 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12119
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

I wish it would my friend. Unfortunately, I fear the powers that be in this world do not grasp the basics of the human condition. They seek power when the true reward is to seek humility. They seek control when the true objective is service. They seek relevance when the right goal is relation. God help us.

God help us, for we are all one flesh, and one decrepit condition. We have one hope and few there are that find it.


_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to RevRick)
Post #: 47
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 4:46:54 AM   
pasternakski


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Ah!





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 48
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 5:18:38 AM   
Hornblower


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Happy Birthday, and to all those brave men and women who made it possible- and continue to make it possible - thank you..  

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Post #: 49
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 5:25:33 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.


The "colonies" didn't have a ship of the line for another couple of wars actually. The victory at Yorktown is very much owed to DeGrasse and the French Navy. The stalemate with England in 1812-14 owes a certain debt to a Corsican Frenchman as well.


Sorry my friend, I must beg to differ. At the end of the war, Commodore John Paul Jones, in one of his last actions, Presents a gift to France of America, ship of the line,74 guns. (The continental navy was disbanded).


Yeah, but if I recall correctly, the 74 gun USS America was never commissioned into the US Navy. Instead, she was delivered to the french upon completion, and proved to be a near disaster as a ship of the line. I'm pretty sure that the french condemned her only a few years after taking possession.

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Post #: 50
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 5:41:27 AM   
Hornblower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

The colonies would not have a single ship of the line, till after the war. De Grasse made Yorktown possible.


The "colonies" didn't have a ship of the line for another couple of wars actually. The victory at Yorktown is very much owed to DeGrasse and the French Navy. The stalemate with England in 1812-14 owes a certain debt to a Corsican Frenchman as well.


Sorry my friend, I must beg to differ. At the end of the war, Commodore John Paul Jones, in one of his last actions, Presents a gift to France of America, ship of the line,74 guns. (The continental navy was disbanded).


Yeah, but if I recall correctly, the 74 gun USS America was never commissioned into the US Navy. Instead, she was delivered to the french upon completion, and proved to be a near disaster as a ship of the line. I'm pretty sure that the french condemned her only a few years after taking possession.


You are correct.. she was built with Green wood and as a result ended up with dry rot. (look at my signature, i know this stuff) The french wrote her off after less then 5 years. Also, she only carried long 18's and long 12 pounders.. Not the 32's and 18 (or 24 pounders on the larger 74's) that were normal in the British Navy (OT... Best Ship of the Line the USN every launched was the USS Ohio..)

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Post #: 51
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 6:25:08 AM   
AW1Steve


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My understanding was the United States Navy did not exist. The Navy of the United colonies did. I'm not exactly sure what the debate here is about. The defination of is?

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Post #: 52
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 6:38:49 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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She was never commissioned into any version of the US Navy. For brevity sake, many of us consider the Continental Navy the birth of the US Navy. So, we're not talking semantics here, but the fact that she was never a part of the US naval service. At least as far as I know... 

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Post #: 53
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 6:47:55 AM   
AW1Steve


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OK Brad , I'll conceed to you. The comment was that the Colonies didn't have a ship of the line. You are right. They had 85% of a ship of the line. Not good enough.

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Post #: 54
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 6:57:35 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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When you consider how undergunned she was compared to a British 74, it is probably a good thing that they never got her into service during the war. What surprises me is that they were able to spend so long building her without RN intervention. 

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Post #: 55
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 7:47:29 AM   
Hornblower


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she was built across the river from Portsmouth, NH (home of some of the best sailors in the age of sail - just like her namesake in the UK)

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Post #: 56
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 7:54:30 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

Historiker, if you are in the North Carolina area ever, do PM me so we can enjoy some non-American brews together. I would enjoy that.

I'm happy to do that.
Maybe next summer or autum, we'll see :)

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Post #: 57
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 1:25:44 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hornblower

she was built across the river from Portsmouth, NH (home of some of the best sailors in the age of sail - just like her namesake in the UK)


That town "across the river" was Kittery Maine. The location of the Portsmouth Naval ships yard. They also built the Ranger , of John Paul Jones fame. And many , many submarines, the last one USS Sand Lance in the late 1960's. The yard's motto is "from sails to atoms".

But to us Mainers (or in my case , former Mainers,) It's "The Kittery Naval ship yard " that's across the Piscataqua River from Portsmouth.

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"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

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Post #: 58
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 3:07:16 PM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Historiker

quote:

Historiker, if you are in the North Carolina area ever, do PM me so we can enjoy some non-American brews together. I would enjoy that.

I'm happy to do that.
Maybe next summer or autum, we'll see :)


Count me in, too, Historiker. Mynok and I are neighbors.

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Post #: 59
RE: Happy Birthday Uncle Sam - 7/5/2009 4:43:41 PM   
ckammp

 

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deleted

< Message edited by ckammp -- 11/1/2009 2:41:01 AM >

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Post #: 60
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