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Off the wall question

 
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Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 2:02:15 AM   
OldCoot

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline 		I'm reading about the formation of the Philippine Army just prior to WW2. One of the units formed was the 26th Cavalry (Philippine Scouts). Only one cavalry unit was formed so why wasn't that unit called the 1st Cavalry?

How in the world do the powers that be go about numbering new formations? I notice that the PA infantry divisions were numbered

11th Div
21st Div
31st Div
41st Div
51st Div
61st Div
71st Div
81st Div
91st Div
101st Div

Why not 1st through 10th?






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< Message edited by OldCoot -- 6/24/2009 2:23:13 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 2:18:20 AM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 2962
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline 		Leaves room for expansion in between!

Think interstate numbering system. Used to be they numbered the exits 1, 2, 3, 4... but they figured out that when you have to add something BETWEEN the numbers, it causes a problem. So now they number them by mile marker instead.

Just guessing on this, but seems logical.

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RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 2:26:58 AM   
OldCoot

 

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Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Leaves room for expansion in between!

Think interstate numbering system. Used to be they numbered the exits 1, 2, 3, 4... but they figured out that when you have to add something BETWEEN the numbers, it causes a problem. So now they number them by mile marker instead.

Just guessing on this, but seems logical.


Could be, but if they want to add another division why not call it the 11th?

I understand the American Army numbered regiments sequentially until the Civil War when the states numbered their own formations and this muddled things up when, during WW1, new federal regiments wanted to keep their state designations.



< Message edited by OldCoot -- 6/24/2009 2:46:20 AM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 2:33:08 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 4700
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline 		Maybe,

26th Cavalry Rgt (PS) was on the US Army establishment and therefore had to fit into that numbering cycle.

1st & 2nd(Constabulary) Divs were "Regular.

The 11 through 101 Infantry Divs were Reserve formations, maybe they left space for more regular units.

Maybe there was some thought of deception, the Brits has 1st Airborne & 6th Airborne, 2nd Airborne was a "phantom" unit (though it had some Bns allocated.

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RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 2:42:09 AM   
OldCoot

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks!
That would explain the 26th Cav

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Post #: 5
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 2:53:12 AM   
88l71


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline 		Personally I never understood the USN airplane designation system, or at least how they came up with it.

An FM-2 is a version of F4F
A F6F and an F6U are different planes

"F" was manufacturer code for Grumman yet there is no F in the word Grumman.
"A" for Brewster, and no A in the word Brewster either
"U" for Vought why not "V"?
"Y" for Consolidated and once again no "Y" in the word Consolidated.
"V" for Lockheed again where'd that come from or "J" for North American Aviation?

Why is the FM-2 not F2M or PV-1 not P1V?

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Post #: 6
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 3:37:07 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12039
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 88l71

Personally I never understood the USN airplane designation system, or at least how they came up with it.

An FM-2 is a version of F4F
A F6F and an F6U are different planes

"F" was manufacturer code for Grumman yet there is no F in the word Grumman.
"A" for Brewster, and no A in the word Brewster either
"U" for Vought why not "V"?
"Y" for Consolidated and once again no "Y" in the word Consolidated.
"V" for Lockheed again where'd that come from or "J" for North American Aviation?

Why is the FM-2 not F2M or PV-1 not P1V?


Because the FM-2 was a F4F(almost) built by General Motors. G had been taken by Goodyear. B,C,V,L and N were taken by a previous companies (some no longer in production like the Great Lakes aircraft co).

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Post #: 7
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 3:39:44 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12039
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 88l71

Personally I never understood the USN airplane designation system, or at least how they came up with it.

An FM-2 is a version of F4F
A F6F and an F6U are different planes

"F" was manufacturer code for Grumman yet there is no F in the word Grumman.
"A" for Brewster, and no A in the word Brewster either
"U" for Vought why not "V"?
"Y" for Consolidated and once again no "Y" in the word Consolidated.
"V" for Lockheed again where'd that come from or "J" for North American Aviation?

Why is the FM-2 not F2M or PV-1 not P1V?



The 1st letter is type. F for fighter. F4F means 4th fighter design from Grumman.
F-6F is the 6th fighter design from Grumman. I'll have to research PV-1 .

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Post #: 8
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 4:12:36 AM   
madgamer2

 

Posts: 1235
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline 		If a male sheep is a ram and a donkey is called an ass why is a ram in the ass called a goose?

Madgamer

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Post #: 9
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 6:58:26 AM   
msieving1

 

Posts: 315
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: 88l71

Personally I never understood the USN airplane designation system, or at least how they came up with it.



There's a very complete description of the system at http://bluejacket.com/usn-usmc-aircraft_designations.html

Most of the odd manufacturer codes were because of conflicts with other manufacturers; the obvious code was already in use. Most letters were in use at any given time. Specifically:

quote:

"F" was manufacturer code for Grumman yet there is no F in the word Grumman.


When Grumman started selling to the Navy, "G" was used for Great Lakes Aircraft Corporation.

quote:

"A" for Brewster, and no A in the word Brewster either


"B" was used for Boeing.

quote:

"U" for Vought why not "V"?


Vought was a division of United Aircraft Corporation.

quote:

"Y" for Consolidated and once again no "Y" in the word Consolidated.


"C" was used for Curtiss.

quote:

"V" for Lockheed again where'd that come from or "J" for North American Aviation?


The "V" was for Vega Aircraft Corporation. When Vega was absorbed into Lockheed, the letter went with it. "N" was used for the Naval Aircraft Factory.

quote:

Why is the FM-2 not F2M or PV-1 not P1V?


FM was the first fighter (type code F) built by General Motors (manufacturer code M). The "-2" is the variant of the model. The USAAF used letters for that (P-51A, P-51B, etc.) The number between the type code and manufacturer code is the manufacturer type sequence, so PV was the first patrol aircraft made by Vega (Lockheed); 1 was not used for the sequence code.

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Post #: 10
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 7:19:59 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 4700
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline


"A" for Brewster, and no A in the word Brewster either.

Thats because of the sort of holes the Brewster Company were in making aircraft for the USN.


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Post #: 11
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 12:30:58 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 7110
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Leaves room for expansion in between!

Think interstate numbering system. Used to be they numbered the exits 1, 2, 3, 4... but they figured out that when you have to add something BETWEEN the numbers, it causes a problem. So now they number them by mile marker instead.

Just guessing on this, but seems logical.


The Interstate system also numbers the highways from west to east for N-S roads and from south to north for E-W roads. N-S roads are also odd numbers and E-W roads are even. I-5 is the main N-S interstate in the west coast. I believe it's I-95 on the east coast.

Main Interstates are either one or two digits. Spurs off of a main interstate (usually in metro areas) have the last two digits the same as the main highway, but with a third digit added at the beginning.

As for unit numbering. I have suspected, but was never sure that spreading out the numbers was to obscure things when more units were raised in wartime. If the unit numbers were consecutive, the enemy might be able to guess how many units you have raised.

Bill

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Post #: 12
RE: Off the wall question - 6/24/2009 12:37:16 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 7110
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1
FM was the first fighter (type code F) built by General Motors (manufacturer code M). The "-2" is the variant of the model. The USAAF used letters for that (P-51A, P-51B, etc.) The number between the type code and manufacturer code is the manufacturer type sequence, so PV was the first patrol aircraft made by Vega (Lockheed); 1 was not used for the sequence code.


The Navy was sort of odd in their numbering system when it came to the first aircraft of a type. The digit 1 was never included in the plane designation, but was included in subsequent aircraft.

There were many famous navy aircraft that were the first of their type from a given manufacturer:
SBD
TBD
TBF
FM
PV
PBJ
AD
FG
PBY

And a number of others.

The Corsair was built by three different makers: Vought (the designers), Goodyear, and Brewster (the Brewster planes were so poorly built that all were relegated to training). The Vought version was the F4U, because it was the 4th fighter type from Vought delivered to the Navy. The Goodyear version was the FG because it was the first Goodyear fighter (and the first plane built by Goodyear for the Navy), and Brewster's version was the F3A. The F2A being the Buffalo.

Bill



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