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Herman's List of ANW Issues - An open invitation.

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Harpoon 3 - Advanced Naval Warfare >> Herman's List of ANW Issues - An open invitation. Page: [1]
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Herman's List of ANW Issues - An open invitation. - 6/10/2009 12:38:12 AM   
Bucks


Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
Herman,

Your major claim to fame is your list, whatever does it for you.

Today you pretty much confirmed an issue by excluding a possibility. So thanks for helping getting this looked at. If you would be so kind as to send the HUD3 file so I can have it dealt with.

Now if you are prepared to keep the list and claim goodwill toward the future of the game, I'm openly inviting you to join the effort by replicating issues related to possible Database issues. If Russell can now fix this and in future I don't have to literlly beat you into line to help, can you accept that by keeping your list your have a responsibility to help reduce it for the good of the game?

I understand you don't want to Beta test although that is now a openly public process and everyone is welcome. I do however believe it is not beyond reason to ask you to assist Russell and in part myself to have your issues resolved. Surely your own aim must be the hope that an update appears free from errors and the list is reduced?

You can be openly cynical or hostile to me it matters not personally. This is about having people not having a list of doom hanging over the game they love. The resources are simply not available to deal with your list on a regular or in depth manner.

Today's example showed that regardless of your initial report, there was more to be discovered and greater depth to be explored before any conclusion could be drawn. You confirmed that the value that generates the detection range was not responsible for the display of the jamming notations, these should start to be displayed as the jamming becomes effective. Your report was "ECM jams Binoculars..." Thanks Herman did you have a look at why? We know you're good at finding these things, want to show everybody how good you are at fixing them?

Your choice, I'm serious, as soon my current project is finished, if you help out with doing a little exploration into these issues, I can't see how they wouldn't get fixed faster can you?

I half expect you to dismiss me, that's your choice and it's not about who's right and never has been, it's the amount of work involved in dealing with your list and the casual nature taken to issue notation etc. (Not personal, just the time involved to look into something "Blind" and notes about platforms you've deleted) I've seen missions with targets assigned that are no longer "on map". What's the effect of a mission in the roster with a non-existant target? We have to cover everything, and editing scens before presenting them as evidence might cause problems, everything has to be covered.

You know as well as I do there's hours of work there, so I'm asking you to chip in. I'm even happy to keep it very civil and go through them here at Matrix, in a way that helps educate the average punter as to what we're looking at with each issue and what it means to gameplay. That'd help Russell see what reaction to fixes is immediately, and this would become constructive.

It's up to you, I just can't see your list ever getting resolved without you not simply keeping it. You need to help reduce it you need to maybe follow a few simple guidelines and it'll start being reduced. With it so big now and you determined to expand it, there will never be any hope of reaching an acceptable level. Until it's gone you're the one making the joke of a game you claim to enjoy and work to promote.

Think it over

Darren Buckley

_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************
Post #: 1
Problem - 6/10/2009 2:51:25 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Your major claim to fame is your list, whatever does it for you.

Today you pretty much confirmed an issue by excluding a possibility. So thanks for helping getting this looked at. If you would be so kind as to send the HUD3 file so I can have it dealt with.

You can drop the attitude right off or this is dead in its tracks. Simple as that. I have lots to be proud of in my life and a list of bugs isn't one of them. It no more defines me any more than HUD3 defines you. Also, it is discredits all the valuable contributions made by others who may not be as vocal as me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Now if you are prepared to keep the list and claim goodwill toward the future of the game, I'm openly inviting you to join the effort by replicating issues related to possible Database issues. If Russell can now fix this and in future I don't have to literlly beat you into line to help, can you accept that by keeping your list your have a responsibility to help reduce it for the good of the game?

Again, drop the attitude. You aren't beating anyone into any line, shape, or form. I do not understand what is being requested. Are you suggesting that only bugs with Database connotations/connections be investigated?

I accept no responsibility for reducing the list of problems. I didn't create them. I am a paying customer trying to enjoy a game that is currently buggy. My responsibility ended with my $60 transaction. However, I am willing to help. Just be clear that I am under no duty or obligation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

I understand you don't want to Beta test although that is now a openly public process and everyone is welcome. I do however believe it is not beyond reason to ask you to assist Russell and in part myself to have your issues resolved. Surely your own aim must be the hope that an update appears free from errors and the list is reduced?

Your definition of open and public is certainly not the same as mine. To me, it mean equal access by anyone with a legitimate Harpoon serial number to all testing materials (*.exe, editors, fora, utilities,...). The ANW process is currently not open. The HCE (Harpoon Commanders' Edition) process is open. However, this is all moot since I've already presented the case to Russell Sharp, AGSI and he has elected to continue in the current fashion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Today's example showed that regardless of your initial report, there was more to be discovered and greater depth to be explored before any conclusion could be drawn. You confirmed that the value that generates the detection range was not responsible for the display of the jamming notations, these should start to be displayed as the jamming becomes effective. Your report was "ECM jams Binoculars..." Thanks Herman did you have a look at why? We know you're good at finding these things, want to show everybody how good you are at fixing them?

Your choice, I'm serious, as soon my current project is finished, if you help out with doing a little exploration into these issues, I can't see how they wouldn't get fixed faster can you?

I half expect you to dismiss me, that's your choice and it's not about who's right and never has been, it's the amount of work involved in dealing with your list and the casual nature taken to issue notation etc. (Not personal, just the time involved to look into something "Blind" and notes about platforms you've deleted) I've seen missions with targets assigned that are no longer "on map". What's the effect of a mission in the roster with a non-existant target? We have to cover everything, and editing scens before presenting them as evidence might cause problems, everything has to be covered.

This is true. Some of the reports are intentionally sparse. I thought that most would (should?) be self-evident to anyone with working knowledge of the game [especially dedicated programmers]. I can understand potential confusion over extraneous leftover details within any test scenario, but that should be moot. It "could" conceivably play a part in a bug, but I've yet to find a connection. I hear lots of reported problems and have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. (When you hear hoofbeats, assume they are horses and not zebras.) Other programmers want the smallest and simplest test situations possible. There's no easy way to please either so the simplest solution is always used. Whatever is on hand is posted, whether that is a SCN file, SAV game, or specifically created file.

However, I expect more effort to be made beyond reading the simple issue description. Most problems really should be discernible by just loading up the test file. All the bug reports posted by noobs in this forum are pretty basic, yet I am able to run them down and diagnose them in very little time; sometimes without even asking for clarification simply by exerting a little effort and imagination. I'm here to play and (try to) enjoy the game. It's not a customer's job to prepare bug reports. Most will simply pass on a mention and AGSI should be grateful to even get that much feedback. Of course, I can try to temper future reports with additional detail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

You know as well as I do there's hours of work there, so I'm asking you to chip in. I'm even happy to keep it very civil and go through them here at Matrix, in a way that helps educate the average punter as to what we're looking at with each issue and what it means to gameplay. That'd help Russell see what reaction to fixes is immediately, and this would become constructive.

It's up to you, I just can't see your list ever getting resolved without you not simply keeping it. You need to help reduce it you need to maybe follow a few simple guidelines and it'll start being reduced. With it so big now and you determined to expand it, there will never be any hope of reaching an acceptable level. Until it's gone you're the one making the joke of a game you claim to enjoy and work to promote.

Again, drop the attitude since there's no way to make a joke of something if it really were not true. I don't determine the expansion of anything. The size of the list will be decided solely by AGSI. After all, they control the code. Anything created is outside of our control.

If you want to post long messages about the game, that's certainly your prerogative. I do not believe it as a particularly good investment of time, but it's a free country. IMO, players just want a game that works and don't hang around fora when they would rather be playing.

I don't see myself following anyone's guidelines. I've reject some in the past and I'm sure that I'll reject some in the future. If you have a question, go ahead and post about it. Russell Sharp has done so several times in the past and has always received a rigorous response. I'll choose how I reply. There won't be any rules or conditions set upon me.

(in reply to Bucks)
Post #: 2
RE: Problem - 6/11/2009 10:42:12 PM   
RedMike


Posts: 1281
Joined: 3/14/2002
From: Alaska
Status: offline
If it's too time consuming, why don't you make H3/H3ANW open source ? Then you could leave it to the thousands of excellent coders around the globe to tune it to their hearts content while you guys concentrate on the next generation H5 ?

Yeah, that's it! :)

RedMike...out

_____________________________

Hannibal ad portas

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 3
RE: Problem - 6/12/2009 2:18:46 AM   
Ron James


Posts: 332
Joined: 6/18/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike

If it's too time consuming, why don't you make H3/H3ANW open source ? Then you could leave it to the thousands of excellent coders around the globe to tune it to their hearts content while you guys concentrate on the next generation H5 ?

Yeah, that's it! :)

RedMike...out


Nice idea there, never going to happen though, I have been playing this game on and off for 20 years now, I don't really notice the bugs anymore , well kind of a white lie there but hopefully this title will be perfect one day

(in reply to RedMike)
Post #: 4
RE: Problem - 6/12/2009 3:26:03 AM   
RedMike


Posts: 1281
Joined: 3/14/2002
From: Alaska
Status: offline
Of course it will never happen but it's still a good idea.




_____________________________

Hannibal ad portas

(in reply to Ron James)
Post #: 5
Problem - 6/12/2009 3:52:37 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMike

If it's too time consuming, why don't you make H3/H3ANW open source ? Then you could leave it to the thousands of excellent coders around the globe to tune it to their hearts content while you guys concentrate on the next generation H5 ?

That would be much too logical and practical. And the game would probably be fixed and functional within 2 months.

Are you sure that you are part of the beta test group? That idea seems waaaay too sensible and reasonable.



http://www.dilbert.com/strips/

Attachment (1)

(in reply to RedMike)
Post #: 6
RE: Problem - 6/13/2009 3:10:14 AM   
Bucks


Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
RedMike,

In a perfect Utopian World maybe. You've not really been given a good reason and well here's the real "No Open Source" issue.

You may have noticed that the Aussie DoD and Northrup Grumman use this simulation, Professional version I know, with a great degree of comunality to the two code streams. I have a good idea and have my fingers crossed that, the guys in Canberra have no intention of letting the code go "wild". Personally I'm not paying taxes to simply support an "open source" effort to improve a game based on individual preferences, rather than a set of Naval Miniatures rules that have been developed since 1972.

The Sim has an export restriction on it, so maybe even the US Govt. isn't keen to see it spread all over the place. After 3 years on this project mine own Govt. won't let me see their version, when you think about it seems strange but I gotta live with it...

Personally I've found actually actively contributing and getting to know the people involved and what they're about is better than open source. Russell has continuously provided infomation from the code that allows me to have the understanding required to suggest changes or tweaks. AGSI and myself always welcome community support and it's surprising what a small team of people can achieve.

Cheers

Darren

_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

(in reply to RedMike)
Post #: 7
RE: Problem - 6/13/2009 3:23:00 AM   
Bucks


Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
Herman,

Please remove the copyright material, unless you have permission or have paid royalties for the comic strip's usage.

Cheers

Darren Buckley

_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 8
Problem - 6/13/2009 5:51:55 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
Taking on the self-appointed role of forum regulator, too, I see. In case you still are unaware, you don't represent Harpoon, AGSI, or Matrix.

Should Matrix decide that this link is somehow in contravention to the forum rules, I'm sure that they will let me know and I'll remedy the situation. Until then, I'll continue to enjoy the forum like any other member.



http://comics.com/the_other_coast/

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Bucks)
Post #: 9
RE: Problem - 6/13/2009 6:51:09 AM   
makobyte

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 4/21/2009
Status: offline
This kind of discussion should be undertaken in private notes, not public forums.
I watched the destruction of a very fine group of people who had passion for a simulation that in the end was shanghaied by a jerk for his own profit.
I don't like to see people put down by name (I may call a person a jerk, but I will not publicly state his name) and he is only a jerk because of what he did to the community for his and his friends profit.
I am new to this forum and the putting down of someone who puts time and effort into improving a game is not something I condone.
If someone has a issue with someone, they should talk in private so that the negative vibes are not the centerpiece of the discussion of the forum.
I think that if we all approach these issues with a open mind and respect for each other, then everything will work out for the best.


(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 10
RE: Problem - 6/14/2009 2:14:22 AM   
Bucks


Posts: 679
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

Taking on the self-appointed role of forum regulator, too, I see. In case you still are unaware, you don't represent Harpoon, AGSI, or Matrix.


No, I represent myself and can read.

The material carries a copyright notice and you have seemingly reproduced it here and yet not confirmed you have permission to do so. It simply leaves me with no other conclusion that your behaviour most likely extends to the reproduction of other's work in the PDB and possibly many other aspects of your Harpoon efforts.

I started this thread in the hope of reducing your list.

I'm finishing it here as you have now resorted to inuendo and obviously have no desire to improve the game. I will not be responding to you again Mr Hum, it's simply a waste of time and effort which would be better invested in my ANW 3.9.4 & 3.10 work. In pure literary terms, you're an unperson from where I stand.

Good luck

Darren Buckley

_____________________________

*******************************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3 Harpoon Databases

http://www.taitennek.com/hud3-db/hud3-index.htm

Development Team H3ANW v3.8, v3.9, v3.10 & v3.10.1
*******************************************

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 11
Problem - 6/14/2009 2:27:14 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

The material carries a copyright notice and you have seemingly reproduced it here and yet not confirmed you have permission to do so. It simply leaves me with no other conclusion that your behaviour most likely extends to the reproduction of other's work in the PDB and possibly many other aspects of your Harpoon efforts.

Well, you're the only person who still believes that especially since your accusation was debunked with your own words. Since permission was openly given, this isn't a problem. Or, I guess that you must have already forgotten.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2077992

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bucks

I started this thread in the hope of reducing your list.

I'm finishing it here as you have now resorted to inuendo and obviously have no desire to improve the game. I will not be responding to you again Mr Hum, it's simply a waste of time and effort which would be better invested in my ANW 3.9.4 & 3.10 work. In pure literary terms, you're an unperson from where I stand.

Which was totally evident by your "open invitation" that immediately tried to impose 'guidelines' on how others would be allowed to respond. Again, you are not in charge of anything; not AGSI, not Harpoon, and not Matrix. If you have a problem, post it up and people will respond in a manner they see fit. No one is waiting for your approval or agreement.

(in reply to Bucks)
Post #: 12
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