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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion

 
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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/25/2009 9:17:03 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Here.




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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/25/2009 9:17:34 PM   
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And here.




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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/25/2009 9:23:28 PM   
JuanG


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Thanks for the sketches - nice looking ship.

I really wonder exactly what the arrangement might have been - clearly the +'s are for both the 4.7in and 6in guns.

Wonder what she would have looked like in 41 if she had gotten some yard time...


Interesting to hear they were going for a 15in/50 - Ill have to run some numbers on that, but it should be a pretty formidable weapon even with the same shells as the 15in/42.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 5/25/2009 9:24:38 PM >


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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/25/2009 9:26:16 PM   
Terminus


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Never heard of a 15in/50. I thought they never went higher than a 15in/45.

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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/25/2009 9:28:57 PM   
HMS Resolution


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Never heard of a 15in/50. I thought they never went higher than a 15in/45.


It was to be a new weapon, but it was never built.

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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/25/2009 9:29:20 PM   
JuanG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Never heard of a 15in/50. I thought they never went higher than a 15in/45.


Well, from what Resolution said it seems they might have. As I dont have the source materials I cant confirm this for myself, but it would be an interesting shift. We know the 15in considered for the KGVs was a 45cal one, but maybe one of these obscure designs did plan to use something longer.

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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/26/2009 2:49:43 PM   
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With the extra two 8-inch cruisers, will the British be building Surrey and Northumberland from the 1928 programme?

A few more thoughts on the development of WWII with such fast ships in the Royal Navy:

The British had a problem in the Mediterranean in that their ships weren't fast enough to catch up to the Italians, and so the Regina Marina's big ships could have as much or as little of the war as they liked. If Invincible and Indomitable went to Cunningham in 1940, he might have been able to force a far more decisive gun action, freeing up the three modernized Queen Elizabeths for the Eastern Fleet. The three older battlecruisers could have been retained in Home Waters for dealing with the pocket battleships, along with the KGVs for Bismarck and Tirpitz. The Rs could have then been used as convoy escorts in the Atlantic---maybe coming to the Eastern Fleet later in the war as a bombardment squadron for the Burma coast or the invasion of Japan.

Alternately, with newer ships, the RN might never have had the resources or the money to do more than cursory Barham and Malaya style renovations to the Queen Elizabeths. If this was the case, the British would have preferred not to send them if they could avoid it. (CAB 66/6/25, "Comparison of British and Japanese Fleets" is an interesting War Cabinet paper on the subject of the Eastern Fleet written in 1940, and it can be downloaded for free from the National Archives, or if you like, I can email you my PDF of it.)



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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/26/2009 3:00:56 PM   
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Always liked the Surrey. Put her in my own mod.

About the Barham and the Malaya; it sounds to me that this scenario might push them even further back in the queue for refit and refurbishment. Limited dockyard space and all that.

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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/26/2009 3:08:12 PM   
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I'm inclined to agree; this would also mean that the R-class (well, Resolution, really) would not have had catapults or aircraft facilities, since those refits would probably never have been performed.

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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/26/2009 4:53:11 PM   
csatahajos

 

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For Q #3: I don't think they would have gone to higher caliber length. The bored down 18"/48 Mark 1 was tested as 16"/56 Mark 4 in reality and it was found that barrel wear was extremely excessive (125 rounds only vs. double the amount in normal 50 cal length) and deck penetration suffered a lot which was just becoming important. On the other hand it was pretty much a killer weapon with very flat trajectories and awesome ranges (approaching 50kyards!!! at 40 degs elevation).

Made a little comparison table for all the british designs for easier reference:

RN WT Cherrytrees




< Message edited by csatahajos -- 5/26/2009 4:55:26 PM >


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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/26/2009 8:22:55 PM   
mikemike

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

With the extra two 8-inch cruisers, will the British be building Surrey and Northumberland from the 1928 programme?



I've played around with different outcomes to the Washington Treaty myself, and it seems to me that, with more of the budget going to new battleships, the first effect would have been a slower buildup of the cruiser force, because there was no urgent need to modernize the older BB's yet, and the CA program was the biggest budget item after the new BB's post-WT. Either fewer ships in the Kent class, with the London class and later ships more stretched out, or maybe smaller ships like Exeter/York, maybe even ships armed with 7.5 in guns.

As to the new BB's: would the RN have stayed with 15", when the main rivals went for 16" in a big style? This was a matter of prestige and not to be taken lightly; the KGV's were massively vilified for having a smaller caliber than anyone else. The G.3 design could have been squeezed down to 41000 tons, by accepting slightly lesser armor thicknesses and other mods. The Nelson class came out 1500 tons underweight, so there would have been some leeway for the G.3 (mod). And they would still have been faster than most other ships. The J3 design seems hardly better protected than Hood, especially in regard to the deck; I don't think the RN would have gone for another "egg shell armed with sledge hammers" design for their new super ships.

Another wrinkle concerns the Hood. After Jutland, the classical battle cruiser concept was in the dog house. Hood only survived because the Admiralty knew Germany was building enlarged Mackensen class BC's with 15" guns. Hood's planned sisters were at first suspended and finally cancelled when it became clear Germany wouldn't be able to complete any of its new BC's. The Director of Naval Construction (I think it was still Sir Philip Watts) wanted to scrap Hood on the stocks to make way for something more worthwhile. I think he might have gotten his way if the Admiralty had realized a bit earlier what was happening to the German building program. Now what kind of clean-sheet design would the RN have come up with in 1917?

Concerning Japan: in 1922, nobody was certain about how carrier aviation would work out, so I think Japan would hardly have built dedicated carrier escorts at the time. They were still concentrating on the Decisive Battle, so I think they would have gone for a modified Nagato design with the max allowed displacement (and might have cheated about that) and used the rest of their allotment for some experimental design several years later.

As to cruisers: more Myoko/Takao class ships. Alternatively, the Mogami class might have been designed as 10K, 8" ships from the start, which would have put paid to the 155 mm guns. As to why the 155 mm wasn't used on the Agano class:
comparison of 140/150/155 mm guns
shell weight 38/45/56 kg (84/100/123 lbs)
barrel life 500-600/500-600/250-300 rounds
The CLs switched to 140 mm guns because it was felt that the 150 mm shells were too heavy for Japanese loaders in a prolonged fight. I think that they would have gone for a new design 140 mm gun for the Aganos if they could have freely chosen, using the 150 mm Vickers design was just for expediency. A design like Oyodo, but with a third 6" turret aft, sounds good, too, but I've always had a weakness for the French La Galissonnière class with a similar layout.


< Message edited by mikemike -- 5/26/2009 8:25:09 PM >


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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 5/26/2009 8:38:10 PM   
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The rationale behind the 15/50 planned for the J3 was that it would be of similar effectiveness to the 16" guns of other nations; as for the J3's armor protection, it is almost identical to that of the G3, although the belt on the G3 thickened to 14" over the magazine spaces. I could certainly see the RN opting not to build more battlecruisers if they were going to be limited on ships; aside from the QEs and the Rs, their battleships were all approaching obsolescence in 1921.

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RE: A Different War - Alternate WNT Scenario Discussion - 11/2/2012 8:41:21 PM   
RevRick


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Hmmm.. I stumbled across this thread for Alt WNT designs.. so just to rekindle the embers of some good ideas..
Here is what I worked up for an Alt WNT design for the J-3..
It would have replaced the NelRods - to bring the RN up the the revised treaty limitations on capital ships.





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