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Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic)

 
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Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/21/2009 11:19:07 AM   
ptan54

 

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One period that I'm interested in, and for which very, very few wargames exist, is the period of 1852-1870. The Second French Empire. Nowhere near as glorious as the First, but the wars from that period are interesting in the same way the American Civil War was - generals accustomed to Napoleonic bayonet charges having to adjust to the vastly superior fire of rifles and the mitrailleuse. The Crimean War, Italian Wars of unification, Austro-Prussian War and Franco-Prussian War might be covered in any potential game in this period.

The only problem is that this period doesn't lend itself very easily to become a strategic game, not as easy as Napoleon I or the ACW, since those were well defined conflicts lasting a number of years. These later wars were short and could not really be fitted into one game. An Austrian victory in 1866 would've meant the end of Bismarck and no 1870. How large should the map be? What to do with the rest of Europe that took no part in these wars? Would Britain and Spain just be on the map and you can't do anything with them?

I suspect any game involving this period would have to be tactical rather than strategic, focusing only on those particular wars. Not sure they would sell very well either...every military buff prefers the first Napoleon to the later one.
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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/21/2009 12:19:39 PM   
AndrewKurtz

 

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AGEOD's Vainglory of Nations (1850-1920) is soon to be released:

http://www.ageod.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=250

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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/21/2009 1:51:26 PM   
ptan54

 

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Thanks for that Andrew! I've never purchased an AGEOD game. It seems they handle the strategic side very well, but the tactical battles are nowhere near as good as COG/FOF. "World War One" in particular seems to have been a massive flop.

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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/21/2009 1:58:06 PM   
jscott991


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Victoria from Paradox covers the period from 1836 through 1920, but does it rather poorly (still, I played it a ton until they completely change the economics in the expansion).

The problem with a Second Empire game is that the wars during this period were very, very limited and players seldom like to be so restricted in what they can accomplish through conquest. 

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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/21/2009 2:00:58 PM   
AndrewKurtz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54

Thanks for that Andrew! I've never purchased an AGEOD game. It seems they handle the strategic side very well, but the tactical battles are nowhere near as good as COG/FOF. "World War One" in particular seems to have been a massive flop.


AGEod games have NO tactical battles (it is all abstracted). I love AGEOD games, and I love WCS games. They may cover the same periods, but both have their place and are awesome. FWIW, I'm absolutely LOVING CoGEE!!!

Might want to give WWI another look. The release was a terrible flop, but it has been patched and is actually an amazing game.


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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/21/2009 2:13:53 PM   
ptan54

 

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I have all the Paradox games up to EU3 (which I didn't like at all, I loved EU2 because of its historical flavour, EU3 is almost pure fantasy). Biggest problem with them is the total lack of control you have over your battles, just move your troops into province X and fight. Victoria could only handle WW1 style wars, with armies stretching across the entire continent. Could not handle ACW or most 19th century conflicts where troop density wasn't great enough to do "coast to coast" frontlines.

So far I must say only COG/FOF has struck the perfect balance between strategy and tactics. Will be interesting to see whether WCS covers a third time period - if they do, I'm guessing it'll be pre-Napoleon, maybe 7 years war or the War of Spanish Succession. Agree it is next to impossible to do a balanced strategic/tactical game for the high Victorian age, wars were too limited and there's too much "what if" involved in assembling OOBS for countries that did not have gigantic armies during the period.




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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/21/2009 3:05:59 PM   
AndrewKurtz

 

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AGEOD games are similar to EU games in that, once the forces are in a region, the battle is automatic. Obviously, you have a lot to do with the outcome through leaders, force composition, postures, entrenching etc.

I play mostly PBEM, so the tactical side doesn't matter to me as much.

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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/22/2009 12:22:20 AM   
Mus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ptan54

I have all the Paradox games up to EU3 (which I didn't like at all, I loved EU2 because of its historical flavour, EU3 is almost pure fantasy).


Agree with you on the EU2/EU3 point. EU2 had a bunch of scripted events and it was possible for you to go off on an ahistoric branch but more likely to happen the way things actually happened. I like that about it. EU3 was meh because of the total fantasy element brought in.

Never played Victoria, Crusader Kings was pretty cool, where the fantasy aspect of EU3 came from I believe, but in that context (managing a royal dynasty through the middle ages, where your families fortune could rise or fall with time) it actually worked.

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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/22/2009 12:47:46 AM   
jscott991


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Eventually, they patched EU3 in such a way as to produce much more historical outcomes (though the AI is very weak in that regard still), but it just made a mockery of what they tried to do originally and their very arrogant defense of it.

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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/22/2009 1:45:59 AM   
yoshino


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EU3 with Magna Mundi mod(Thanks Ubik!) is more historical frame and outcome.
Victoria with V.I.P.mod is also more historical.

I think the CoG:EE engine is suitable for diplomacy and treaty about this era.
but this game engine is for total war of Napoleonic era.Such as for Austro-Prussian war isn't suited.

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RE: Napoleon III era as a wargame? (off topic) - 5/22/2009 11:40:36 AM   
steveh11Matrix


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Agree 100% about the improvements made with EU3 by the Magna Mundi crew.
Haven't played Victoria for a very long time, but I used to enjoy it - a flawed gem, I always thought.

So far, I'm finding CoG:EE to be a similarly flawed gem; I'm enjoying it a lot but the interface... isn't quite what I'd have hoped for. I'm having a lot of difficulty 'getting' the tactical combat, too. But I'm persevering.

A dedicated Nappy II game, focussing on the Franco-Prussian war? Even better, one that dealt with the Austro-Prussian war as well? Hey, I'd give that at least a second look.

Steve.

_____________________________

"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci

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