Matrix Games Forums

Distant Worlds Gets another updateHell is Approaching Deal of the Week Battle Academy Battle Academy 2 Out now!Legions of Steel ready for betaBattle Academy 2 gets trailers and Steam page!Deal of the Week Germany at WarSlitherine Group acquires Shenandoah StudioNew information and screenshots for Pike & ShotDeal of the Week Pride of Nations
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

PBEM question

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> John Tiller's Campaign Series >> PBEM question Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
PBEM question - 4/21/2009 1:53:18 PM   
TJD

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline
I'm fairly new to PBEM, having played only a half-dozen games or so, and wonder how concerned I should be about "The Number of Saves Exceeds ..." warning. In five games I've seen this warning 3 times. I know the purpose is to discourage cheating but I wonder how often the appearance of this warning really correlates to cheatin' going on. I mean, if you want to cheat, there are easy ways to avoid setting off this warning (just recopy the .bte file into the directory). Anyway, I'd like to ask more experienced PBEM players what their feelings are on this. Does this warning occur commonly and do you usually just disregard it?

Thanks,
TJD
Post #: 1
RE: PBEM question - 4/21/2009 5:01:20 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline
I'm no authority on this, but you're correct that the warning is designed to discourage cheating.  Perhaps it does this by encouraging players to play their turn with no saves or with as few saves as possible.  I'm not sure how that figures in cheating.  Apparently you can save mid turn, inch forward, and if you don't like the result, you can restart from the previously saved position and avoid the previous mistake.  I guess multiple saves might be an indicator this is happening.  For larger scenarios, I would expect multiple saves.  For smaller scenarios, you might question why someone had to save so frequently.  I tend to save frequently because I get interrupted frequently, and when I get interrupted, I'm not sure when I can return to the game.  I guess it's a tool, but I'm not sure how valuable a tool. 

(in reply to TJD)
Post #: 2
RE: PBEM question - 4/21/2009 5:14:33 PM   
TJD

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

I'm no authority on this, but you're correct that the warning is designed to discourage cheating.  Perhaps it does this by encouraging players to play their turn with no saves or with as few saves as possible.  I'm not sure how that figures in cheating.  Apparently you can save mid turn, inch forward, and if you don't like the result, you can restart from the previously saved position and avoid the previous mistake.  I guess multiple saves might be an indicator this is happening.  For larger scenarios, I would expect multiple saves.  For smaller scenarios, you might question why someone had to save so frequently.  I tend to save frequently because I get interrupted frequently, and when I get interrupted, I'm not sure when I can return to the game.  I guess it's a tool, but I'm not sure how valuable a tool. 


Thanks for the response. I'm playing a size 7 scenario right now. It's on move 4. Moves 2 and 3 each warned of 2 saves. It seemed too early in the scenario to be worried about multiple saves. But move 4, where contact has been made, warned that 3 saves had been made. Seems pretty odd. The scenario really isn't that big.

Thanks again,

TJD

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 3
RE: PBEM question - 4/21/2009 6:35:30 PM   
umbro

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
I would simply let your opponent know that the game reported extra saves and ask why that may be.

umbro

(in reply to TJD)
Post #: 4
RE: PBEM question - 4/21/2009 6:43:39 PM   
TJD

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: umbro

I would simply let your opponent know that the game reported extra saves and ask why that may be.

umbro



I've done so, but my concern or question really isn't so much about this specific game as about how often the save warning is encountered by experienced PBEM'ers. I was discouraged for a long time from PBEM by reports that cheating was rife and unstoppable, and maybe I'm still reacting to that.

TJD

(in reply to umbro)
Post #: 5
RE: PBEM question - 4/21/2009 7:23:00 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 915
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJD


quote:

ORIGINAL: umbro

I would simply let your opponent know that the game reported extra saves and ask why that may be.

umbro



I've done so, but my concern or question really isn't so much about this specific game as about how often the save warning is encountered by experienced PBEM'ers. I was discouraged for a long time from PBEM by reports that cheating was rife and unstoppable, and maybe I'm still reacting to that.

TJD


I think Umbro has said it best. Ask your opponent why.
Cheating in games? There will always be cheating. I think it is not so much as you are lead to believe.
The "Save Exceeds" feature is a tool, if you suspect cheating. But, it should not be the only thing you should go on?

I would get concerned if my opponent saved many multiple times in a Size 2 or 3 scenario. But, those cases have not come up yet.

I've played a few games in my day. I save occationally, when I am called away from the computer. It's rare that I would save more than twice in any game I play. The one exception would be in a teamgame.

Relax and comm with your opponent. It's only fair, and will ease your mind?

RR


_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to TJD)
Post #: 6
RE: PBEM question - 4/21/2009 7:57:30 PM   
TJD

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

I've played a few games in my day. I save occationally, when I am called away from the computer. It's rare that I would save more than twice in any game I play. The one exception would be in a teamgame.



That's the sort of feedback I was looking for. I hadn't really expected to see this warning at all, at least not in the sample of games that I've played, all but one of which have been on the small side. I assumed that players would go out of their way to avoid saving, but it seems not. Anyway, it's curiousity, not raving paranoia, that led me to post the question, and I agree the only solution in any particular case is to chat with the opponent....

Best,

TJD

(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 7
RE: PBEM question - 4/21/2009 8:42:09 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline
Personally I would consider a 7 complexity fairly large.  I would consider myself lucky to get through that without saving.  I will also frequently look at the playback in the morning before work just to see what happened, and then I do my half of the turn in the evening -- hopefully in one sitting.

In time you'll develop a rapport with other players, and you won't worry about cheating.  If you think the other player is cheating, and if it distracts from your enjoyment of the game, you probably will find others to play against. 


(in reply to TJD)
Post #: 8
RE: PBEM question - 4/21/2009 8:50:02 PM   
mwest


Posts: 436
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Personally I would consider a 7 complexity fairly large.  I would consider myself lucky to get through that without saving.  I will also frequently look at the playback in the morning before work just to see what happened, and then I do my half of the turn in the evening -- hopefully in one sitting.

In time you'll develop a rapport with other players, and you won't worry about cheating.  If you think the other player is cheating, and if it distracts from your enjoyment of the game, you probably will find others to play against. 




Frank - Same here.

I usually; especially on the Complexity 7+ scenarios, will watch the replay and then save the game after any of my plotted artillery rounds are completed. I will then "try" to finish my move the next time I get back to the game, but sometimes need to save several times because of other real life stuff and distractions.


< Message edited by mwest -- 4/21/2009 9:45:01 PM >


_____________________________

Regards, - MW

The Blitz - Wargaming at its Best!

http://www.theblitz.org/

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 9
RE: PBEM question - 4/22/2009 12:50:02 AM   
Big Ivan


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: Mansfield, OH
Status: offline
Frankly, I'm amazed anyone would want to cheat!!

Cheating is a tool used for the "Trophy Hunters" and not much else.

You become a better player by playing better players and gain the expierence on how you went wrong if you loose! One learns from that and I've learned a bundle from better players. John Given and Sir Killalot over at the Blitz have taught me a lot. So has Krink over at Game Squad.

Tournaments as a side comment are also a great gauge to see how good you are. You usually play some of the best in these get togethers and I have lost my fanny a few times.

I wish I had a few bucks for everytime I lost a game. I'd buy something I could use.
In close I hope cheaters would mend their ways, it detracts from the game and the spirit of competition.

Take Care!
Big Ivan

(in reply to mwest)
Post #: 10
RE: PBEM question - 4/22/2009 1:11:07 AM   
TJD

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mwest


I usually; especially on the Complexity 7+ scenarios, will watch the replay and then save the game after any of my plotted artillery rounds are completed. I will then "try" to finish my move the next time I get back to the game, but sometimes need to save several times because of other real life stuff and distractions.



This is good to know. I think I was laboring under the false assumption that, because the program tracked saves as a way to detect cheating, saves were therefore identified with cheating, and thus were something one ought to go to great lengths to avoid so as not to create the appearance of cheating. In other words, I thought saves were some big hairy taboo in PBEM. I see now that the attitude among experienced players is more relaxed than that, and I'm glad to know it, as I'm sure I'll need to save now and then too.

So, thanks for the feedback, all! I appreciate it, truly.

TJD

(in reply to mwest)
Post #: 11
RE: PBEM question - 4/22/2009 1:44:41 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 5190
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Status: offline
On the other hand, there are those of us that play rather quickly. If I am distracted, I just leave the game on until I can return to it. A complexity 7-8 scenario is small from what I prefer to play and can play a turn of that size in usually no more than 10 minutes, including watching the replay and artillery. There really isn't a need for me to save.

But then, that may explain my win/loss record.

Jason Petho


_____________________________

Petho Cartography

Mapping Military History

(in reply to TJD)
Post #: 12
RE: PBEM question - 4/22/2009 2:18:24 AM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1002
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline
On a complexity level 7, I might take as long as 30 minutes (perhaps longer) to cogitate my nexts moves and the sequence of my moves and firings.  After all that thought, I still suck.

I get the impression some of my opponents breeze through a turn with the same speed as Jason, and they do so skillfully, but I simply don't read the maps or units with the same skill, and even after plotting it out, I frequently misjudge scenarios -- especially what can be done with the given scenario length.

If I play a scenario I'm familiar with against the AI (and presumably if I get to that point H2H), I might play a lot faster because a lot of the thought process is repetitive.

I guess it's like reading.  I remember when I first played Jeopardy on a computer screen (or some other game that required reading a lengthy question).  My opponent had the entire question read and was answering before I got past the first few words. 


(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 13
RE: PBEM question - 4/22/2009 10:21:30 AM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 915
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline
I just finished a turn in a size seven scenario, without watching the replay, and in one sitting. It took 25 minutes. I don't see doing it in less than half that amount of time. I might have trimmed five minutes but not fifteen.
And, I play very quickly.

RR


_____________________________

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 14
RE: PBEM question - 4/22/2009 1:58:30 PM   
mwest


Posts: 436
Joined: 7/7/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TJD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mwest


I usually; especially on the Complexity 7+ scenarios, will watch the replay and then save the game after any of my plotted artillery rounds are completed. I will then "try" to finish my move the next time I get back to the game, but sometimes need to save several times because of other real life stuff and distractions.



This is good to know. I think I was laboring under the false assumption that, because the program tracked saves as a way to detect cheating, saves were therefore identified with cheating, and thus were something one ought to go to great lengths to avoid so as not to create the appearance of cheating. In other words, I thought saves were some big hairy taboo in PBEM. I see now that the attitude among experienced players is more relaxed than that, and I'm glad to know it, as I'm sure I'll need to save now and then too.

So, thanks for the feedback, all! I appreciate it, truly.

TJD


TJD:

I once thought like you do (did?) about game saves. And you know what? My game play actually was worse when I worried about the number of "saves" because I put pressure on myself to finish a high complexity turn rapidly... without taking the time to really study my move / combat options. I find that the opening turns in a CS game to be critical since you are plotting and executing on various tactics. This can take a while; especially, when you are playing a new / blind, high complexity scenario... so multiple saves are common.

So, cut yourself some slack... and as RR and others posted, communicate up front with your opponent about both game saves and your rules of engagement (ROE)

All the best in your CS gaming!


_____________________________

Regards, - MW

The Blitz - Wargaming at its Best!

http://www.theblitz.org/

(in reply to TJD)
Post #: 15
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> John Tiller's Campaign Series >> PBEM question Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.090