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Pirate Bay founders lose Court case

 
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Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/17/2009 11:39:14 PM   
hermanhum


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Pirate Bay founders lose Court case

Landmark ruling in piracy debate arrives, as four Swedish ‘entrepreneurs’ are given custodial sentences

The founders of the BitTorrent Pirate Bay website have been found guilty of ‘assisting in making copyright content available’ this morning – with all four execs given custodial sentences.

In a landmark case in the differentiation between file-sharers and pirates, the Swedish Court found Peter Sunde, Fredrik Neij, Gottfrid Svartholm, Carl Lundström guilty – and sentenced each to a year in prison.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/33959/Pirate-Bay-team-lose-court-case
Post #: 1
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/17/2009 11:57:44 PM   
Terminus


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Sucks to be them...

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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 12:52:18 AM   
Hertston


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Clearly guilty as charged.

The verdict, though, is probably just as bad for the music and movie industry as it is for the Pirate Bay folks as it will entrench a view they have that is grossly mistaken. They simply don't understand what the real problem is; not 'piracy' but the fact that their own distribution model is years behind the times, and that they need to adopt one that is high volume, low cost and above all easy and instant access.


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Post #: 3
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 12:57:00 AM   
Terminus


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I'm personally sick of those Pirate Bay people trying to portray themselves as "innocent martyrs" when they're juvenile punks, but this verdict does smack a bit of the courts trying to make an example of a rather weak case.

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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 1:37:38 AM   
Zakhal


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There has been huge debates on many forums. So many people come up and defend them on most ridiculous reasons.

Mostly they are guilty on been way too open and arrogant about it all. If they had kept lower profile and used common sence this might have not happened.

Even then they get max 6 months and piratebay keeps going on (another countries) so not much changes. They even keep the income from the adds. The 3,5 million they were forced to pay has allready been promised to pay by som rich swede as a gift.

People will keep enjoying free content from piratebay and feel sorry for the admins spending som time on jail. Im not sure if this is yet a victory at all.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/18/2009 1:43:13 AM >


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Post #: 5
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 1:50:55 AM   
JudgeDredd


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I agree with Hertston. And to add, Piracy would be much less of an issue if the companies sorted out their business model. That isn't condoning piracy at all...but like Hertston said, they are light years behind technology and pricing structure. Add to that the ridiculous laws they enforce and you get people hating the industry.

You know I cannot stream radio at my work through the computer unless the company stumps up a few hundred pounds a year for it for me? You know it costs me <£10 for a CD in a store...and it costs me the exact same (or very, very slightly less) to download the same CD or individual songs? So for me to download a CD costs the company the same as to produce the CD, artwork, jewel case, ship it to a retail outlet, man said retail outlet and post it to me? Really?

Does anyone remember how much a tape used to cost? Not much more than a CD does just now, and yet their production costs have dramatically decreased. Now they can have a file sitting on a computer and push it to disc arrays...cds are burned in seconds, by the hundreds.

Sorry...but the music industry is one of my big pet peeves...run by a bunch of dinosaurs! Ridiculous.

As for the case itself, I know nothing of Pirate Bay or Bittorrent, but I am concerned that these people are going to be encroaching more and more on peoples privacy by holding ISPs to ransome for information on individuals.

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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 2:03:17 AM   
barbarossa2

 

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While Google also points to copyrighted material and gives rise to infringement all over the place (owning YouTube!), the avowed purpose of the Google and "Pirate Bay" are different!  LOL

I think if Pirate Bay had been named something less offensive, like, "YouFile", they wouldn't have had their asses handed to them in court like that.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 7
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 2:33:35 AM   
Zakhal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

While Google also points to copyrighted material and gives rise to infringement all over the place (owning YouTube!), the avowed purpose of the Google and "Pirate Bay" are different!  LOL

I think if Pirate Bay had been named something less offensive, like, "YouFile", they wouldn't have had their asses handed to them in court like that.

Actually if piratebay had been more co-operative perhaps removed warez links when asked (they did remove som links i.e child porn?) Im sure they would have won the case.

Google actually removes illegal links when asked. Its motive is not to provide them. Ebay and fake rolex is good example:

quote:

Rolex sues ebay for some fake Rolex being sold.... but its okay for ebay as long they remove the fakes and "do all they can" to prevent this in teh future = which is one drunk studen checking the bids while surfing the net or something (and the judge will perfectly agree its ok and tell Rolex to GTFO)


< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/18/2009 2:35:25 AM >


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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 2:58:44 AM   
Perturabo


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I think they'd have to change the name first.

Anyway, I can't way until they'll start to lock up librarians because they allow people to read books for free.

quote:

ORIGINAL:  JudgeDredd

Does anyone remember how much a tape used to cost? Not much more than a CD does just now, and yet their production costs have dramatically decreased. Now they can have a file sitting on a computer and push it to disc arrays...cds are burned in seconds, by the hundreds.

Yeah. Not to mention ripping off people outside the fairyland by selling the easily copyable goods for those ridculous fairyland prices.
I'm not buying games/music produced in fairyland anymore (unless they have normal prices) - I can get Polish music for a decent price.


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Post #: 9
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 3:06:00 AM   
V22 Osprey


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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 3:09:48 AM   
Zakhal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I think they'd have to change the name first.

Well whats so bad about pirates. Techinically its leeching not pirating. We even have pirate day. Dont put pirates down.

quote:

Yeah. Not to mention ripping off people outside the fairyland by selling the easily copyable goods for those ridculous fairyland prices.
I'm not buying games/music produced in fairyland anymore (unless they have normal prices) - I can get Polish music for a decent price.


Movie/music industry is totally different from games industry. Unlike them for games the game sales is the only source of revenue. And the fact that big corporations leech music revenue as middleman is no reason to defend piracy as whole (or should I say leeching?).

If you live in Poland I can understand your affordability range though. Hopefully you get there with rest of us EU with time.


< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/18/2009 3:19:26 AM >


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Post #: 11
Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 3:20:35 AM   
hermanhum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I can get Polish music for a decent price.

Shouldn't the question be, "Can you get decent Polish music for any price?"

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Post #: 12
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 4:15:29 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Movie/music industry is totally different from games industry. Unlike them for games the game sales is the only source of revenue.

That's why I'm comparing game piracy to libraries. Funny fact about libraries - in my city there are 7 libraries in city centre alone - including one devoted to Science Fiction.
One can read about 5-10 good books a month for years or even decades without having to buy a single book. I think it isn't good for the book market, and local writers, taking in account how it's much easier to save money for a book than for a computer game.
Hell, even one guy from CC forums that talks about how piracy is thievery and brags about his 40" TV and his super-computers also talked about how libraries are "good" because they allow him to save hundreds of dollars every year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

If you live in Poland I can understand your affordability range though. Hopefully you get there with rest of us EU with time.

Frankly, I don't see it happening within the next 20 years. 90% of adults here don't have any savings and 80% are in debt.
Which means that thanks to the liberal governments, many people will go under as soon as they'll go ill, lose a job, etc.
There's more and more of people that live by searching for cans and paper in trash bins.
Of course, there's the whole liberal propaganda of success and self-sufficiency - it's very helpful when your in a hospital or out of contracts and you don't have saved money for 6 months of living because the government took away half of your monthly "income" (of course "income" somehow includes money for paying back loans you had to take a few years later when you were in a similar situation and feeding yourself and your kid - because, people totally can work when malnourished and without a roof over head. But hey, it worked in concentration camps.).

Of course every person that goes under, stops being a customer of several businesses and decreases their incomes, so it's a vicious circle.

Also, judging by the fact that most of the goods sold in stores are sold by companies from the west, I suspect that a huge part of the money we make ends up in pockets of western investors instead of increasing the national wealth.

As for the state of the gaming market in Poland, I blame Polish gaming magazines and their one-sided anti-piracy campaign. While they were fighting and condemning pirates, they should have fought and condemned foreign publishers for not adjusting to the local market as well.
They should have taught players that allowing foreigners to drain the nation of its precious and scarce resources by buying western games that cost 1/5 of a minimal wage isn't a good idea (I would rather call it a national treachery or something like that).

Hmm...
Actually, it would be reasonable to use libraries to read foreign books and save for Polish ones.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

Shouldn't the question be, "Can you get decent Polish music for any price?"

Well, I was quite surprised to discover that there is a lot of good/decent Polish bands - they are simply less known than bands from the fairyland because their music isn't played in radio or on MTV. Usually, I'm buying music on Allegro - I search for Extreme Metal below 25 PLN. If I find something interesting, I check on YouTube or Rapidshare (amusingly, downloading music in Poland is legal as long as one doesn't share). If they are good, then I buy the CD.
Or, I go Empik and browse shelves for CDs under 30 PLN. Then I listen a few tracks in store and buy the best CD.
Allegro is the best, because there people that sell CDs straight from the records - prices are lower than in stores and sometimes there are promotions - I've recently bought two good CDs for 9,99 PLN each.

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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 5:04:32 PM   
Dave Briggs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

That's why I'm comparing game piracy to libraries. Funny fact about libraries - in my city there are 7 libraries in city centre alone - including one devoted to Science Fiction.
One can read about 5-10 good books a month for years or even decades without having to buy a single book. I think it isn't good for the book market, and local writers, taking in account how it's much easier to save money for a book than for a computer game.
Hell, even one guy from CC forums that talks about how piracy is thievery and brags about his 40" TV and his super-computers also talked about how libraries are "good" because they allow him to save hundreds of dollars every year.



I don't think your analogy to libraries holds up in this case. They are talking about pirating in the sense of copying and keeping a reproduction of a copyrighted product. If when you borrowed a library book you made a copy of it and printed it out then you would be talking about the same thing. Most if not all people, when they borrow from a library, just read the book and return it. As far as I know, it's not illegal to loan someone a CD or DVD as long as they don't reproduce it. Although they are primarily talking about monetary loss, piracy also involves the theft of intellectual property (although I'd have a hard time calling some CD's "intellectual". )

Having said the above, I do agree that entertainment copyright holders and producers are way over-reacting to this. I find it hard to accept that some millionare musician is all pushed out of shape because some guy who earns less than 20K a year downloads a CD off the internet.

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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 6:11:52 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

I don't think your analogy to libraries holds up in this case. They are talking about pirating in the sense of copying and keeping a reproduction of a copyrighted product. If when you borrowed a library book you made a copy of it and printed it out then you would be talking about the same thing. Most if not all people, when they borrow from a library, just read the book and return it. As far as I know, it's not illegal to loan someone a CD or DVD as long as they don't reproduce it. Although they are primarily talking about monetary loss, piracy also involves the theft of intellectual property (although I'd have a hard time calling some CD's "intellectual". )

Well, if we are looking at piracy as how government goons are defining it, then they are not the same.

On the other hand, from a moral point they are exactly the same. Someone is works hard to create a commercial intellectual property and it's made available for people to use for free. In case of books it's more harmful because books are easier to buy (so the possibility of the library user buying a book that isn't in library is much higher than the possibility of a torrent user buying a super-expensive game or other program) and usually reading a book once satisfies the need of buyer/borrower.
Also, books compete on market with other goods which aren't legally available for free, which increases the chance that the potential customer will simply choose to read books for free and buy the other goods.
Since most of the libraries are owned by the government, it could be simply solved by partially commercialising them - they could simply take a small payment for borrowing books whose authors still live which would be paid the author as royalties.

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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 6:53:10 PM   
Obsolete


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I keep wondering when YouTube will get in trouble.  I've been wondering on that for years now....


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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 7:22:03 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

I keep wondering when YouTube will get in trouble.  I've been wondering on that for years now....


Already over and done with. When Google took it over they made a few adjustments to make it more difficult (but by no means impossible) to post copyrighted content without the owners' permission. The movie and TV moguls know that Google has the lawyers to make a court fight a losing proposition.


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RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 7:27:20 PM   
Obsolete


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Thought I'd do a test.  One movie I haven't seen in ages was that old classic 1984.  Typed it in, and sure enough... the entire movie is avail for watching...




< Message edited by Obsolete -- 4/18/2009 9:41:06 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 8:05:21 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock


quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

I keep wondering when YouTube will get in trouble. I've been wondering on that for years now....


Already over and done with. When Google took it over they made a few adjustments to make it more difficult (but by no means impossible) to post copyrighted content without the owners' permission. The movie and TV moguls know that Google has the lawyers to make a court fight a losing proposition.


They didn't make it difficult. They just remove it when notified.

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Post #: 19
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 10:38:58 PM   
Arctic Blast


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Clearly guilty as charged.

The verdict, though, is probably just as bad for the music and movie industry as it is for the Pirate Bay folks as it will entrench a view they have that is grossly mistaken. They simply don't understand what the real problem is; not 'piracy' but the fact that their own distribution model is years behind the times, and that they need to adopt one that is high volume, low cost and above all easy and instant access.




Could not agree more. Yet, the idiots running the big media companies will go back to their ivory towers, convinced that soon they'll return to a world of CDs selling 4 million copies and every movie under the sun doing $90 mil + in grosses.

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Post #: 20
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 10:53:31 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Could not agree more. Yet, the idiots running the big media companies will go back to their ivory towers, convinced that soon they'll return to a world of CDs selling 4 million copies and every movie under the sun doing $90 mil + in grosses.


On the second point, the truly devastating effect that internet piracy is having on the movie industry can be seen here,

Could 2009 be the biggest year in US box-office history?

Ahem...

(in reply to Arctic Blast)
Post #: 21
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/18/2009 10:55:40 PM   
Zakhal


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My favorite article on piracy:

quote:

The Culture of Piracy

In researching this article I read literally hundreds of articles, studies, forum posts, blog posts and general comments from a wide range of people. What disturbed me more than the blatant misinformation and falsehoods regarding various aspects of the debate was the unashamed 'Culture of Piracy' which now appears to be prevalent around the Internet.

Not only are the people who are pirating games openly bragging about it, they're flowering it up with a range of excuses, even suggesting that it's their right to do so. Back in the 1980s when my friends and I swapped copies of Amiga games, we didn't blame the copy protection for forcing us to do it, we didn't blame copyright laws, or assume it was our right to copy any game we want in the name of 'freedom', we didn't even make a point of openly advertising that we did it. We copied games for one simple reason: because we could.

Fast forward to the 21st century, and piracy has apparently somehow become a political struggle, a fight against greedy corporations and evil copy protection, and in some cases, I've even seen some people refer to the rise of piracy as a "revolution". What an absolute farce. Truth be told I have the greatest respect for the people who simply come out and just say that they pirate because they can, no more, no less. At least then I know I'm dealing with someone who's being honest and has got their head screwed on straight.

Piracy is the result of human nature: when faced with the option of getting something for free or paying for it, and in the absence of any significant risks, you don't need complex economic studies to show you that most people will opt for the free route. However to back this up, the data presented in this article shows quite clearly that DRM or no DRM, good game or bad game, demo or no demo, available via Steam or not, cheap or expensive, whether sold by an independent or a major publisher - all games are being pirated on a massive scale. The most significant determinant of which games will get pirated more is how desirable they are. No surprises there.

The purely self-serving nature of the arguments people use to justify piracy has become quite galling, and frankly is an insult to the collective intelligence of all internet users. Whether you pirate games or not is ultimately none of my business, but at least have the decency to be honest with yourself and everyone else about the real reasons why you're doing it.

http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html


Interstingly ps3 while been the only console that games cant be pirated also has the highest attach rate of all game platforms:
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/15/sony-ps3-beating-xbox-360-in-per-title-attach-rate/

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 4/18/2009 11:04:33 PM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 22
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 2:35:41 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

Truth be told I have the greatest respect for the people who simply come out and just say that they pirate because they can, no more, no less. At least then I know I'm dealing with someone who's being honest and has got their head screwed on straight.

Ah, yes, the infamous "why should I buy anything if I can have it for free" crowd. I don't share the author's respect for these people.
Especially mistaking lack of morals and anti-social personality for "being honest" and "having their head screwed on straight."
I meet such people in school and I can say that their negative influence on society isn't limited to the hardcore "why should I buy anything if I can have it for free." piracy.
They are the people who don't pay for bus tickets, who cheat on exams, who give and take bribes, don't bother do anything to make the world a better place, etc.
There's nothing honest about them and certainly nothing worth respecting, maybe except their low animal cunning that usually gets them far in life.

Also, I find the "human nature" statement offensive. Maybe the author is some special kind of "human" if he believes that it's "human" nature.

What the author doesn't understand is that in fact these guys are the majority of hardcore pirates that won't start buying games even when they are going to be cheaper, more easily available, without DRM, etc.
And you won't find them on internet forums defending piracy mainly because they don't need to do it - actually, if they speak, they will be the first to call themselves "thieves" and talk about how piracy is bad. Seriously, I've encountered this kind of people both in RL and in the Internet. These guys are often totally anti-social and completely don't care about game/music authors - they even say that even if the games will be cheap, they'll download them from torrents, because it's easier and requires less effort.

There's nothing worth respecting about such lack of morality, and there's nothing healthy about it. Their minds work in a perverse alien way and they are the main cause why the gaming market is in such state and why piracy has so bad reputation.

And since, the author stated that he shares this alien way of thinking, it's understandable that he projects his mental perversion on everyone else.
Which gets me to the point that the author has missed.

People defend piracy, because they care. Simply, if they say that games are pirated because of too high prices, they buy them when they are available cheaper, when they say that piracy doesn't decrease sales, it's because they do buy as much stuff they pirated as they can, if they say it's because of DRM they probably are fed up with it and stopped buying games because of that, wouldn't even think about doing such thing as calling the tech support for problems with a pirated game, etc.
That's where the argument of the victimless crime comes from.
Of course, it's projecting their own personality on the other people too (on the silent amoral anti-social majority). Ergo, they experience only the only the good side of piracy (people have access to more of the culture, especially poor people and the creators get their money anyway - pure paradise) and thus see it as a positive thing and defend it.
It's logical. Similarly, it's logical that if piracy is a positive force in their lifes, it's logical to see anti-pirates as evil, greedy, misguided, etc. Ergo, they feel obliged to fight against the enemies of piracy.

So, that's the vocal defenders of piracy. The problem is that their arguments would be applicable to the present problem of piracy only if they would be a majority - and according to the stats in the magazine, they aren't - they are a vocal minority (let's be honest, most of the people that don't really care about gaming won't spend their time on gaming forums). Even if their postulates will be fulfilled, it won't change anything for the creators/publishers, because they aren't the one who cause the damage that concerns creators/publishers.

The silent amoral majority won't bother writing lengthy posts about why piracy isn't bad because they are too busy maximalising their profit - they don't care about what government goons do because they have already calculated that they won't get caught, or even if they'll get caught they will get away with it. They don't need any ideology or any "excuses" because they don't strive to do the right thing - their behaviour is amoral - they simply won't buy anything unless they must - they don't need any ideology for that - ideology and "excuses" aren't needed for being a pirate - they are needed to stop oneself from becoming an amoral "why should I buy anything if I can have it for free" type and for keeping buying stuff that one can/should buy.
Spending hours on a debate isn't profitable - the aliens would probably prefer to spend their time getting drunk for money saved on games/music, playing games or some other things.

On the other hand guys who make piracy a business, for example the ones that make money on ads presented on their torrent sites would be much more active in stealing the arguments for piracy because unlike the silent majority, they are completely exposed and stopping authorities is in their interest.

Sweet Emperor, I hate xenos. There's something about how they destroy my country, how they destroy the world with their amorality that makes me sick. We could have won a better society, a better world long time ago, but no, they had to destroy everything.
And you know what's the most depressing about this? It won't change, the aliens will constantly pollute the world, even if they will buy games with their cash when they won't get their precious first 10 days pirate copies, they will still ruin the society, the politics, relationships, everything that they touch. Such is the nature of the alien. It's obvious that if most of people won't even bother to pay for games even if they have tons of cash (and having money for new hardware and for impulsive buying games in first 10 days after their release means being filthy rich) then the society can't function correctly. It's simply abominable

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/19/2009 4:49:42 AM >


_____________________________

Without social solidarity manifested in the form of welfare state, people inhabiting one territory are a non-nation of mortal enemies engaged in competition for survival.

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Post #: 23
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 6:23:57 AM   
KG Erwin


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Perturabo, your rant against "the aliens" mystifies me. What aliens are you referring to?

What's weird about this is that you decline to reveal where YOU are from, and your e-mail is hidden. Why is that?

Your railing against public libraries is flat-out ridiculous, as law prohibits copying and distribution of material without expressed written consent of the publishers. Reading it is still legal. Do you have a problem with that?




< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 4/19/2009 6:44:12 AM >

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 24
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 7:56:25 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8526
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Perturabo, your rant against "the aliens" mystifies me. What aliens are you referring to?

What's weird about this is that you decline to reveal where YOU are from, and your e-mail is hidden. Why is that?

Your railing against public libraries is flat-out ridiculous, as law prohibits copying and distribution of material without expressed written consent of the publishers. Reading it is still legal. Do you have a problem with that?




How unlike you KG to completely miss his whole point and dig out the bit about aliens....I guess the phrase "Here we go again" comes to the fore....I await the rest of the lynch mob.

Actually I think the point he made about libraries being hit, whilst wild, holds water. The point being it's simply not just about copying. I mentioned earlier in the thread about it being illegal for me to listen to the radio at my work...whether it be through my phone, a radio or streamed through the internet.

I'm not copying it. In fact, the damn licence has been paid for by the radio. However, some fat cats (I was going to say lawyers, but whilst they may well have a hand in it, it would be silly to single them out)...some fat cats have sat around a table and said "Look...we can make even more money...lets make employers pay for employees listening to music at work"..."Can we do that? I mean...radio has already paid for playing it publicly"..."Course we can...we'll cover it under this 'Sharing In The Workplace' thingy and give it a posh name".

The point is, unless my work pays for listening to the radio, to no less than 2 bodies of people who apparently represent the music industry and it's artists...I cannot listen to the radio and if I do, my work gets hauled to court for breaking the law. It's something to do with public licence for airing...even though the radio has already paid for that.

Back to libraries? I await the day when some other fat cats representing authors decides to make money from libraries.

Yes it's a different scenario, but it's perfectly feasible.

Anothe rpoint he makes which is correct. You will not change the mindset of the hacker. He wants to do it for the challenge. He's not doing it because he wants the free game! He probably doesn't play any computer games! ("he" does not mean there aren't any "shes" in the hacking world btw).

I remember the days when I could by a game at Game , get it home, play it, realise it was crap and take it back. It's the removal of that "right" which has me staying away from most main stream games. I certainly don't buy them from stores anymore...maybe 1 a year if that.

They (computer/music/film companies) are tightening the noose around the wrong people. They are alienating (whoops) the public. They need to address it in a different approach.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 25
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 9:37:44 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3487
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Plymouth, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Ah, yes, the infamous "why should I buy anything if I can have it for free" crowd. I don't share the author's respect for these people. Especially mistaking lack of morals and anti-social personality for "being honest" and "having their head screwed on straight."



You've completely missed his point. He 'respects' them only so much as at least those people admit what they are doing, as opposed to making up assorted spurious excuses for it.

quote:

Also, I find the "human nature" statement offensive. Maybe the author is some special kind of "human" if he believes that it's "human" nature.


The fact you find it 'offensive' doesn't stop it being true. Games are rather different, which is why I focused my own comments on music and movies, but the simple fact is that most 'pirates' simply are not 'hardcore'... they are in fact very 'casual', and are just doing what what a whole generation of their friends are doing. Some 6 million people in the UK, say, currently download material illegally - far more than do legally, it's ridiculous to assign them all 'anti-social personalities' and pretend any sort of enforcement action will change their behaviour. The vast majority of those downloads do not reflect potential purchases under the current distribution model, but do represent the potential for them in a new one. There is a whole 'market' there that the music/movie industry should be tapping, and indeed has begun to tap. You know what the most effective anti-piracy 'measure' to date has been? Not DRM, or legal action, or moral rants. It's i-Tunes. and, specifically, the new teenage market buying into the i-Tunes culture.

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 26
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 10:36:29 AM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
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Been playing a little too much 40K, have we, Perturabo?

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Post #: 27
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 10:50:34 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1496
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
Activities against piracy, like the new copyright law, primarily serves an industry who superseded smaller companies in the past and brought the whole gaming sector down to a level where I hardly can find anything interesting for myself anymore. I will praise the day when mainstream publishers finally retire from pc platform due to 'freeloaders' hurting their financial interests and corresponding magazines will have to spotlight indie studios again, because there is nothing else left to write about.

That is the flip side of piracy.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 28
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 11:14:58 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


Posts: 358
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
For me it's about supporting a good game maker and a good project.  If a friend slapped down on my desk a burned DVD containing a pirated copy of a Matrix game I liked, complete with updates and whatever cracks they use to dodge the CD code, I'd still buy the game in order to support the makers.  But if the burned DVD had some blockbuster production like HOI or Civilization 5 on it, I might load it up, play for a few hours until bored, delete it and then head down to the beach to play frizbee with the DVD.  I reckon it's better not to be bothered by ethics, world economics or stress in general.  Buy the games you like and feel good about supporting people deserving of your cash.

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Korsun Pocket

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Post #: 29
RE: Pirate Bay founders lose Court case - 4/19/2009 9:24:46 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2289
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

The fact you find it 'offensive' doesn't stop it being true.

It's not true. There's no such thing as a "human nature". The "why should I pay for anything if I can have it for free" crowd is just an indication of failure of their parents, not of "human nature".
This or there are different human subspecies whose psychology is completely different because of different genetics, which also kills the point of talking about "human nature".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

You've completely missed his point. He 'respects' them only so much as at least those people admit what they are doing, as opposed to making up assorted spurious excuses for it.

I noted his point and I simply disagree with it. He wrote a long article about how DRM is the only thing that significantly decreases piracy and about how even games that are cheap, get both store and digital distribution (World of Goo is even sold in Poland for 19,99 PLN), don't have DRM, have demos, etc. still get 90% piracy rate. Then he completely missed the inevitable conclusion of the statistics - that for every person who pirates "because of" who will not stop buying, there are many people who follow the "why should I pay for anything if I can have it for free" philosophy and who will not buy anything unless they are forced to.
Then he writes a conclusion about "the culture of piracy" assuming that the first group is in fact the second group and that their "excuses" are simple lies and that they won't buy anything anyway unless forced by DRM.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Games are rather different, which is why I focused my own comments on music and movies, but the simple fact is that most 'pirates' simply are not 'hardcore'... they are in fact very 'casual', and are just doing what what a whole generation of their friends are doing.

It depends on what you mean by "hardcore". To me, it means that they follow the "why should I pay for anything if I can have it for free" philosophy and don't have any sense of obligation towards the authors/publishers, and towards the society in general. Which is what I'm talking about when I call them anti-social. Simply, you can't have a working society with such people.

I wouldn't say that most of pirates aren't "hardcore". Statistics from the article say something completely opposite - if game that isn't cracked in first ten days sells in millions units more than one that was cracked in the first days, it means that millions of the pirates out there have money for buying expensive hardware and expensive games and still chose not to buy the games unless they are forced to. It's not normal.
The same thing with the mentioned cheap games with both store and digital distribution.

It's hard to say what is the scale of the problem basing on anecdotal evidence because internet forums tend to attract people who are deeply involved in gaming and people tend to flock to people with similar morals - so, it's quite possible that they simply don't have any friends that are hardcore pirates - which makes the picture of the situation totally distorted.

I'm still in school (I had to go to another school because my previous school turned out to be a hoax - most of my class went to school only to escape from the army or to not have to pay for social and medical insurance, and because according to liberals cleaners, security guards and other people who do simple and dirty hard work are some kind of subhumans that don't deserve to be paid enough to support themselves, even when they work full time or more) and I'm going to a local youth palace for comic and journalism clubs.
I'm often shocked to see how wildly different people are in different circles.
For example all people in the comic drawing club buy stuff whenever they download or not.

On the other side the ones from the journalism club are completely different. They behave in different ways - they don't show respect to their teacher, all the computers are full of pirated stuff - for example, I come to write an article and there two movies and ten music albums on the desktop. It's not normal.

When I went to school for the first time this year, I went for a tram after sleeping just a hour that night. So, I bought tickets, but I forgot to validate a ticket, partially because I was half-asleep and partially because I used to have a monthly ticket that didn't require validation. So, I had a bad luck and there was a ticket inspection and I had to pay 50x the price of the ticket just because I forgot to validate it (it's the same as someone who rides without a ticket would have to pay).
So, I got pissed off and decided to stop using trams.
Also, since I was in the journalism club, I wrote an article about the non-proportional penalties for something like that.
So, I talked to my friends and practically everyone had a story like that. Actually one of my friends got a penalty for sitting down to search for a ticket before validating it.
Then I went to a journalism club, so, they have listened to it and one girl told her about how it's horrible that a ticket inspector gave her a penalty three years ago. So, I asked her if she buys tickets, and she said that never, just as the rest of people theres O_o .
Ok, so these guys basically, don't even feel obliged to pay for bus tickets and even those draconian penalties don't frighten them because they'll "save" a lot of money, even when they'll get caught, which apparently doesn't happen often O_o . Now, that's hardcore.

I think there is only one such "person" in my class - a guy that works as an agent/financial advisor. He is different from everyone in class and doesn't exactly fit in.

Similarly, one day, I wrote an article about prices of music CDs, video DVDs and computer games. So, I talked with them about it and they responded somehow artificially, like they were imitating somebody else's opinion, not speaking from their own experience. It turned out that they don't buy stuff at all. I can't understand them - they are completely alien to me.

More, in my previous school there were similar people - they had cash, but downloaded instead of buying (which probably was why they had so much cash) and bought things like electronic hardware and cars instead. I think I was the only person in my class that didn't have a car and one guy even had his own flat.
One day we went to McDonalds with our programming teacher and started talking about maturity exams. There was five of us - it turned out that everyone except me cheated on maturity exams, including our teacher O_o .

Our programming teacher is another story - we've done only 1/3 of the programming school program. One thing that I remember is that he always told us about various ways to cheat our customers - mainly by making them think that we've done a lot of work when something required changing only one line of code.

So, the point is that people from different social circles think in various ways. The world may look nice when one talks with friends or with fellow fans, but outside the circle filtered out people there are vast hordes of people whose way of thinking is completely alien.

So, I spend most of my free income on music/books/manga/games - in last year I bought whole Rozen Maiden manga series for about 200 PLN (8 tomes, 25-35 PLN each) - I saved my school money every day - I took full second breakfast, a bottle of mineral water refilled with cooked tap water, a thermos full of hot tea + school things and hauled it 7 kilometres to school to save on tram tickets, water and tea. This allowed me to save 5-10 PLN a day which is 1-2 minimal hourly wages. It allowed me to order a tome every week.
Well, that's how fans behave.

But how many real fans are there? A game may be played by millions or even tens of millions but only hundreds or thousands will be on gaming forums.
There are innumerable hordes of people for who real things like morality, justice, paying the authors and publishers, etc. are much less important than illusions of materialism like buying a new cell phone, a new hardware, a car, getting smashed, partying, paying for college, etc.
Seriously, there are people who work in UK who would prefer to download a game from torrent than pay 7 GBP for. And this kind of people are majority of pirates.

I don't have a cell phone, I don't have an I-pod, I don't have a digital camera, I don't have a new computer, I don't have tons of things, hell, my coat has 10 years and I think my sweaters have about 7-5 years. If I wouldn't buy stuff, I would have all of them.

Hardcore pirates simply buy things like electronics, clothes, etc. instead of buying games/music/etc. because they don't have to pay for stuff. So, the hardcore "why should I pay for anything if I can have it for free" exists because it's simply profitable and results in tangible material wealth of the people who practice it.
That's the silent majority I'm talking about and material wealth is their main motive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

and corresponding magazines will have to spotlight indie studios again, because there is nothing else left to write about.

I suspect that the magazines will simply move to consoles to keep the ad money.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Back to libraries? I await the day when some other fat cats representing authors decides to make money from libraries.

Why exactly would it be bad? It would be good both for authors and for people who can't afford/don't want to have their own books. Now it's good only for the latter - which isn't exactly a good thing. Especially for the authors who are limited to a national market.
Video rentals work like that and somehow no one says that they are evil. Why should book authors be treated worse than the authors of other media?
Because they can't afford as good lawyers as the gaming/video/music industry? As I have mentioned before, such imbalance creates unfair competition - it's simply unjust.

As for the radio thing. It's simply idiotic. Though, I suspect that it came from the customs of hypermarkets that usually play radio because they discovered that it makes people buy more things. Still, having to pay for listening to radio at work is unjustifiable.

_____________________________

Without social solidarity manifested in the form of welfare state, people inhabiting one territory are a non-nation of mortal enemies engaged in competition for survival.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 30
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