Matrix Games Forums

A closer look at rockets in Space Program ManagerDeal of the Week - Pride of NationsA new update for Piercing Fortress EuropaNew screenshots for War in the West!Pike & Shot is now available!Server Maintenance Battle Academy 2 gets updated!Deal of the Week: Advanced Tactics Gold Ask Buzz Aldrin!Pike & Shot gets Release Date and Twitch Session!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

OT- Somalian Pirates

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> OT- Somalian Pirates Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 7:56:24 PM   
TommyG


Posts: 269
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Irvine Ca
Status: offline
This is a pretty knowlegeable forum. What do you guys think should be done about the Pirates in the Indian Ocean and Gulf of Aden? 2300 ships a year go thru the Gulf. Why can't they convoy weekly, one each direction, between Djibouti and the Seychelles. Seems like five DDs with helicopter support should be more than enough protection for each convoy no matter how strung out and confused they get. Also, a half dozen Q-ships could be added out side the convoy runs to make a real party. What's wrong with my scenario?
Post #: 1
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 8:02:36 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
So I guess you "didn't see" the last Somali pirates thread that was removed from the WitP forum two days ago?

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to TommyG)
Post #: 2
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 8:03:16 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10212
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TommyG

This is a pretty knowlegeable forum. What do you guys think should be done about the Pirates in the Indian Ocean and Gulf of Aden? 2300 ships a year go thru the Gulf. Why can't they convoy weekly, one each direction, between Djibouti and the Seychelles. Seems like five DDs with helicopter support should be more than enough protection for each convoy no matter how strung out and confused they get. Also, a half dozen Q-ships could be added out side the convoy runs to make a real party. What's wrong with my scenario?


This isn't going to end well...


(in reply to TommyG)
Post #: 3
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 8:13:14 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14923
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
I did NOT post in this thread...

(in reply to Dixie)
Post #: 4
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 8:14:23 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
Every time one of these stupid threads gets started, Erik ends up having to shut it down, taking time away from preparing AE. Think about that before pressing the "NEW THREAD" button next time...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 5
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 8:33:22 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3615
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline
I'm pretty sure somewhere another kitten is paying the ultimate price as well.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 6
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 8:34:41 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
See??? Bad! Badbadbadbad!!!

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 7
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 9:36:35 PM   
Tactics


Posts: 330
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: USA
Status: offline
I blame Denmark

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 8
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 9:58:12 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline
Tommy, Tommy, Tommy.....don't you realize that asking an adult , real world question is going to incur the the wrath of WITP Gods? It is forbidden to discuss current, real world issues like intelligent adults! You should know better than that! Do a Faber, or something else of a nonsensical nature (and therefore inoffensive). Post a nun or a naked animal picture or something.

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 4/13/2009 10:08:01 PM >


_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Tactics)
Post #: 9
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:01:07 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14923
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Post a nun or a naked animal picture or something.


But if you get the two mixed up that might get you banned.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 10
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:07:35 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Post a nun or a naked animal picture or something.


But if you get the two mixed up that might get you banned.


No doubt.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 11
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:08:57 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1841
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline
 

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 12
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:18:45 PM   
TommyG


Posts: 269
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Irvine Ca
Status: offline

In the immortal words of Emily Litella: "never mind"

(in reply to Misconduct)
Post #: 13
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:24:02 PM   
bobogoboom


Posts: 3795
Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Dallas
Status: offline
i vote 20 posts till lock. this should generaly be posted in the general disscusions forum of the main forum not witp erik will just move it if its here.

_____________________________

I feel like I'm Han Solo, and you're Chewie, and she's Ben Kenobi, and we're in that bar.
Member Texas Thread Mafia.

Sig art by rogueusmc

(in reply to TommyG)
Post #: 14
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:24:37 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TommyG


In the immortal words of Emily Litella: "never mind"


For what it's worth Tommy, I am very interested in this matter. I'm currently co-authoring a series of articles on it, and co-authored a letter to the editor of the WSJ . So it's not that we are not interested in the subject, or your opions, it's just that they are not permitted here. If a question in not directly related to WITP, or could even remotely be considered political, it's locked. Period. If it is not locked at first, it will be.

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 4/13/2009 10:26:08 PM >


_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to TommyG)
Post #: 15
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:32:29 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14923
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Tommy,

Further to what Steve said, there are many political differences of opinion here as well. What you and I might agree on might be non-sensible to someone else here, and vice versa. The non-political rule is to keep the forum both focused and friendly ('cause while many of us can agree to disagree courteously, sometimes it goes the other way!).

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 16
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:34:04 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5648
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline
Try posting this topic over here........you will get more discussion than you may want.......

http://maddogdrivethru.com./index.php?sid=89eb25100666079c956a13fa86d9e3e4

But I can tell you what most of the posters will say........same as me........

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 17
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 10:46:02 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TommyG

This is a pretty knowlegeable forum. What do you guys think should be done about the Pirates in the Indian Ocean and Gulf of Aden? 2300 ships a year go thru the Gulf. Why can't they convoy weekly, one each direction, between Djibouti and the Seychelles. Seems like five DDs with helicopter support should be more than enough protection for each convoy no matter how strung out and confused they get. Also, a half dozen Q-ships could be added out side the convoy runs to make a real party. What's wrong with my scenario?


But since this thread hasn't been locked, I'll bite. The force you describe sounds much bigger than necessary. One "mothership" (like an amphib or replenishment ship), 1DDG and a couple of frigates should be able to patrol the area nicely. But there are more forces than that already there. It's the "rules of engagement" that are causing most of the grief.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to TommyG)
Post #: 18
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 11:35:17 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline
Convoying won't work because the shipping companies will lose money with delays in their schedules while the convoy slots fill up.  It is estimated that the efficiency of British shipyards was reduced by a third due to convoying in WWII; imagine what "just in time" shipping would go through if they had to wait weeks for a convoy to form up.

Q-ships would work for a while, but IMO what would work better is to allow armed parties on the merchant ships.  I've seen some recommendations to put deck guns or MG's on them but that would probably create all sorts of problems for foreign ports, most who don't allow armed merchant ships to enter them without lengthy inspections and certification that the weapons are safed in an off position while in port.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 19
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 11:42:32 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14923
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
The admiral who gave the briefing yesterday described the area of ocean involved as something like: 'Draw a line from New York to Chicago to Texas to Florida then back to New York. That's the size of the area of ocean involved.'

It's pretty tough to cover physically. The Bainbridge was over 300nm away when the first report of pirate trouble came in from the ship.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 20
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/13/2009 11:50:55 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline
A lot of ocean for a ship. Not so much for a martime patrol squadron. P-3's, Aurora's, Nimrods or Atlantic's. Heck, just about anything that can fly low, slow, and long. C-130's. Even B-52's.  It's not as big as you think. I used to do it for a living.    The mere presence of topcover MPA will make the badguys keep their heads down.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 21
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 12:00:40 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 14923
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Yeah but at what cost and how persistent is the effect? Aircraft can't stay overhead forever.

One ship owner was on TV yesterday and said that when one of their ships was taken over it was like this:

They prepared for the passage ahead of time, were very watchful etc. An 'innocent looking' fishing boat only broke cover when it started moving and made an intercept course. It launched two skiffs each with a pilot and 6 to 8 borders that made for the ship. They fired on the ship (breaking windows, etc.) to suppress the non-lethal resistance being used (fire hoses). They swarmed aboard and that was it. Total time was estimated to be 6 to 8 minutes. Even if it was somewhat longer that's pretty quick for first responders to arrive. Hell your lucky if urban 911 can get there that quickly.

He also said that the crew (held for two or three months) was mostly kept on one side of the bridge (28 crew) with around 40 Somalis on the other side of the bridge and more patrolling the ship.

[Edited to correct crew count typo from 38 to 28.]

< Message edited by witpqs -- 4/14/2009 12:10:48 AM >

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 22
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 12:03:56 AM   
Feurer Krieg


Posts: 3078
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
I'm interested in this topic, but I really don't have a lot of knowledge.

I have heard a counterargument for arming ships (or their crews) though and it had to do with starting an arms race where both sides become more and more destructive. I don't know if that is a reasonable argument or not.

Seems to me, a couple crew members authorized to use force should be enough to deter many of the pirates, who would just go to the next cargo ship until they find one that doesn't put up a fight. But I really don't know much abotu all the dynamics involved, so I could be way off.

_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net and www.skybirdart.com, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 23
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 12:47:15 AM   
marky


Posts: 5747
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin, its really cold
Status: offline
there needs to be a combination methinks. have the SEALs train crews or something like that too.

(in reply to Feurer Krieg)
Post #: 24
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 1:30:58 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3864
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TommyG

This is a pretty knowlegeable forum. What do you guys think should be done about the Pirates in the Indian Ocean and Gulf of Aden? 2300 ships a year go thru the Gulf. Why can't they convoy weekly, one each direction, between Djibouti and the Seychelles. Seems like five DDs with helicopter support should be more than enough protection for each convoy no matter how strung out and confused they get. Also, a half dozen Q-ships could be added out side the convoy runs to make a real party. What's wrong with my scenario?


I do have the answer, but Erik said that I would be banned from WiTP, and forced to play only Second Life or The Sims if I responded indepth.


_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley


(in reply to TommyG)
Post #: 25
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 2:07:21 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4663
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline
So as long as the shipping companies are able to pass along their increased costs (ransomes) then the status quo reigns.  It's to expensive to have warships everywhere and they take to long to arrive even if you cover the area with air recon.  There are answers to every problem, eventually.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to stuman)
Post #: 26
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 2:11:29 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6587
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
Perhaps I'm assuming too much, but I'm guessing that while the pirates can amply handle a 30' skiff, they probably can't pilot a 10,000(+) ton cargo vessel.

What good does it do a pirate to capture a vessel that he can't pilot home.

The pirates assume that all they have to do is get to their prize and squat, and somebody pays the ransom.  They don't have to pilot the prize, they just collect ransom and pledge of passage.

But if civilian crews and pirates know that international response will be to arrive in force, and not ransom, there is little incentive to attack a cargo vessel that you can neither pilot, and if you send a ransom request, that military force will be on it's way to kill you, instead of the ransom.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to stuman)
Post #: 27
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 2:15:29 AM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 2552
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
Hmmm, wonder if this will get me banned?

: Fix broken Somali society!?! while simultaneously doing whatever is prudent in the short-term to curtail, deter, mitigate the piracy?

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 28
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 2:29:04 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yeah but at what cost and how persistent is the effect? Aircraft can't stay overhead forever.

One ship owner was on TV yesterday and said that when one of their ships was taken over it was like this:

They prepared for the passage ahead of time, were very watchful etc. An 'innocent looking' fishing boat only broke cover when it started moving and made an intercept course. It launched two skiffs each with a pilot and 6 to 8 borders that made for the ship. They fired on the ship (breaking windows, etc.) to suppress the non-lethal resistance being used (fire hoses). They swarmed aboard and that was it. Total time was estimated to be 6 to 8 minutes. Even if it was somewhat longer that's pretty quick for first responders to arrive. Hell your lucky if urban 911 can get there that quickly.

He also said that the crew (held for two or three months) was mostly kept on one side of the bridge (28 crew) with around 40 Somalis on the other side of the bridge and more patrolling the ship.

[Edited to correct crew count typo from 38 to 28.]

Aircraft can act as a force multiplier . They find the target, then vector surface forces. Plus the higher the aircraft, the greater the radar horizon. Plus new UAV systems , like coyote, can be employed by MPA aircraft. More terrain patroled, means fewer patroling ships are needed.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 29
RE: OT- Somalian Pirates - 4/14/2009 2:30:55 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12916
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Perhaps I'm assuming too much, but I'm guessing that while the pirates can amply handle a 30' skiff, they probably can't pilot a 10,000(+) ton cargo vessel.

What good does it do a pirate to capture a vessel that he can't pilot home.

The pirates assume that all they have to do is get to their prize and squat, and somebody pays the ransom.  They don't have to pilot the prize, they just collect ransom and pledge of passage.

But if civilian crews and pirates know that international response will be to arrive in force, and not ransom, there is little incentive to attack a cargo vessel that you can neither pilot, and if you send a ransom request, that military force will be on it's way to kill you, instead of the ransom.

-F-


The pirates only need to "motivate" the crew to sail the ship where they want it. A pistol to the head can do that.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> OT- Somalian Pirates Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.135