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RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates

 
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RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/10/2009 10:02:53 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 12397
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Two things. First, those are the only ones you've seen on TV. In 'news' they edit, and (unfortunately) they often edit to get what they want.

But the big unknown is: exactly what question were they answering and what was the context?

Where they being asked about deck guns or about a few of the crew (master at arms, etc.) having small arms to repel attempted boardings?

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Post #: 31
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/10/2009 10:36:06 PM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

My point being the same as usual... people are morons.


Thats the attitude your typical sociapath would take though isn't it...insulting everyone!!!


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RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/10/2009 10:47:39 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 12397
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Page 2!


My work here is done.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 33
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/10/2009 11:19:09 PM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Two things. First, those are the only ones you've seen on TV. In 'news' they edit, and (unfortunately) they often edit to get what they want.

But the big unknown is: exactly what question were they answering and what was the context?

Where they being asked about deck guns or about a few of the crew (master at arms, etc.) having small arms to repel attempted boardings?


WAR IN THE SPECIFIC: THE STRUGGLE AGAINST...PIRACY!!


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Post #: 34
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/10/2009 11:29:49 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 3639
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: vermont
Status: offline 		It is surprising that this thread continues. I took a Maritime Law Course ages ago.

From that time I remember the following:

Under international law, a warship may board a merchant ship on the high seas (without committing an act of war) for the following reasons:

1) to determine nationality
2) to investigate marine cable (telephone/telegraph) breaks
3) to suppress the slave trade
4) to suppress piracy

No court anywhere on earth has jurisdiction on the high seas. Some nations might accede to the jurisdiction of the International Court in the Hague but that court has no means to enforce jurisdiction thus it is in effect impotent unless some nation will do its bidding with its own armed forces.

The nation whose flag is flown by a merchant ship/yacht has legal jurisdiction on ships flying its flag so long as such ship is not in the territorial sea of another nation (in which case jurisprudence may be exercised on said merchant ship/yacht by the 'host country'). Thus a person on a French yacht/merchie who commits murder would be subject to French justice unless the French ship was in some other country's territorial sea (usually within 3 miles {cannon range in 1800}) in which case that 2nd country would exercise its justice on the murderer.

If a ship is a warship the nation whose flag the warship flies exercises jurisdiction over crimes committed aboard.

If a ship claims a certain nationality or flies a certain flag and that country denies that the ship is actually of that nationality the ship becomes "stateless" in which case any nation may choose to exercise jurisdiction over the conduct of the persons on board on the high seas. A ship may make only one claim of nationality if challenged by a warship on the high seas. If a merchant ship's claim of nationality is legally valid by the assertion of the "flag government" then boarding officers from a warship of another nation must withdraw and allow that nation to exercise legal jurisdiction for any perceived wrongs committed by those on board.

By inference a country which allows a ship to fly its flag asserts that it will enforce commonly acceptable (international) laws/rules of conduct with respect the property and persons of other nations so that the other nations will allow commerce and social intercourse to occur. A country such as Somalia which can not enforce much of anything outside the presidential palace becomes a real problem in this regard.


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 35
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/10/2009 11:59:29 PM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
Status: offline 		Item 1) What about the flag
Item 2) Is it a cable layer
Item 3) Slave ships in the year of our Lord 2009!!?
Item 4) ...

< Message edited by Curty -- 4/11/2009 12:01:49 AM >

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Post #: 36
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 12:08:15 AM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4450
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From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline 		What I thought was funny was when the journalists asked what they could do to the pirates under the Geneva Convention...(1. The Geneva Convention covers conduct of men IN UNIFORM during time of war 2. The United States never ratified it (though we are one of the few who follow it))

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Post #: 37
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 12:22:56 AM   
Dixie


Posts: 9522
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The crews themselves don't want it.


I'm not so sure about that. Also, I suppose it depends on what kind of armament you are talking about. My understanding is that it doesn't take much much to turn pirates away from larger ships as the ship already has an advantage.

The 'unarmed' security guards on a (IIRC) British vessel a few weeks ago were only able to say "Stop! Or - I shall say 'STOP' again!"


What it takes is maintaining a good watch and a decent speed. As for the crews themselves not wanting to be armed, I'm sure they don't want it. None of the guys he works with are in favour of arming merchants vessels. Maybe American crews feel differently about it, the old man doesn't generally speak with American crews so I wouldn't know.


quote:

marky

well if it saves lives and stops it i think it should be done


It won't save lives, in fact it would have the opposite effect in all probability.

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Post #: 38
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 12:30:27 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 3639
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: vermont
Status: offline 		The international laws with regards the high seas were developed when Britannia ruled the waves. Such changes as have been effected have been imposed upon that framework.

Flag and nationality in this context are interchangeable.

Cable breakers include fishing boats.

Human trafficking/slavery is a current global problem. Ships are used to transport slaves.

Piracy is an increasing problem drawing little media attention most of the time in the US (most likely because until now the pirates had not seized any American ships/citizens).

Nations and publics choose and are abetted in ignoring that which goes on at sea because:

a)it's hard to know what goes on there. The 24 hour news cycle finds it too expensive to cover what goes on there.
b) it's even harder to get agreement on how to fix what goes on there since by international agreement nobody owns the ocean and any claim to the contrary must be backed up by force.

An example: Cuban claims a 13 mile territorial sea. The US recognizes (and claims) a 3 mile territorial sea plus a 9 mile Customs Zone extension (total = 12 miles). The USN routinely sends warships into the claimed Cuban territorial sea to a distance of 12.0000001 miles to ask/dare Fidel/brother Raul to enforce his 13 mile claim. So far the Cubans have declined to dispute the US interpretation of territorial sea claims. Back in the early 80s some Cuban Migs did enforce that Cuban claim against a Bahamian gunboat by sinking it though. International Law has much to do with "Might Makes Right".

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Post #: 39
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 12:38:20 AM   
Gregg

 

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Status: offline 		Bring back Q Ships.

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Post #: 40
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 12:48:12 AM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
Status: offline 		Pirates only remained successful so long as nations allowed them to roam. Often, a corrupt governor would allow a persons or persons perform piratical acts for a set fee, similar to the arrangements for privateering. Of course the acts committed were not against enemy vessels, it was just purely for financial gain. In return the pirate received safe harbor. Once nations and colonial authorities eliminated safe harbors, organized piracy began to dry up quickly.

By definition, a pirate is any person committing a criminal acts against public authority, on the high seas outside the normal jurisdiction and laws of any state (country). By law, they can be arrested, prosecuted, and sentenced by any state that captures them. Also, by definition, the criminal act is of a private nature, that is personal gain, and not for political reasons. Of course that is very narrow definition that all nations agree on. Needless to say, even today, most nations have a broader interpretation of what a pirate is.



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RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 12:52:42 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9060
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curty

Pirates only remained successful so long as nations allowed them to roam. Often, a corrupt governor would allow a persons or persons perform piratical acts for a set fee, similar to the arrangements for privateering. Of course the acts committed were not against enemy vessels, it was just purely for financial gain. In return the pirate received safe harbor. Once nations and colonial authorities eliminated safe harbors, organized piracy began to dry up quickly.

By definition, a pirate is any person committing a criminal acts against public authority, on the high seas outside the normal jurisdiction and laws of any state (country). By law, they can be arrested, prosecuted, and sentenced by any state that captures them. Also, by definition, the criminal act is of a private nature, that is personal gain, and not for political reasons. Of course that is very narrow definition that all nations agree on. Needless to say, even today, most nations have a broader interpretation of what a pirate is.




I repeat:

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(in reply to Curty)
Post #: 42
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 12:54:21 AM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Page 2!


My work here is done.






HEADING FOR PAGE 3...MY WORK IS NEVER DONE!


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Post #: 43
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:01:58 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 39886
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curty


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

My point being the same as usual... people are morons.


Thats the attitude your typical sociapath would take though isn't it...insulting everyone!!!



I consider myself "people" as well... And if you didn't catch that, then thank you for proving my point. Again.

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Post #: 44
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:06:03 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 39886
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Two things. First, those are the only ones you've seen on TV. In 'news' they edit, and (unfortunately) they often edit to get what they want.

But the big unknown is: exactly what question were they answering and what was the context?

Where they being asked about deck guns or about a few of the crew (master at arms, etc.) having small arms to repel attempted boardings?


How many merchant seamen do you know? Dixie knows one (his father), and several others through him, and has confirmed what I said, even though I don't know any either.

If civilian crews are armed, hi-jackings will NOT stop, and the violence level will escalate. In all the ships that have been taken so far, how many casualties have there been among crews (hint: not many)? How many do you think there'll be if you up the stakes? And how much of an outcry?





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Post #: 45
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:13:58 AM   
marky


Posts: 5747
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Wisconsin, its really cold
Status: offline 		time for some old fashioned convoys

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 46
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:15:42 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 39886
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: online 		Already happening.

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Post #: 47
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:17:43 AM   
TOMLABEL


Posts: 4720
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From: CSA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curty

Glenn Beck (FOX)


Gee, Curty. That was a very intellectual, OPEN-Minded, non-polarizing response.

Well, that is if you know what I'm talking about....

TOMLABEL



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Post #: 48
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:19:53 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 39886
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: online 		You have to admit it was pretty funny when he burst into tears the other day...

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Post #: 49
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:26:38 AM   
TOMLABEL


Posts: 4720
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You have to admit it was pretty funny when he burst into tears the other day...


I must have missed that one. Out of curiosity, what is the general opinion of Beck in the ETO these days?

TOMLABEL

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Post #: 50
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:28:14 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 39886
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: online 		No idea about the "general" opinion, although it's probably along the lines of "Glen who?". My personal opinion would include a number of expletives.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 4/11/2009 1:31:22 AM >

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RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:30:20 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22515
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quote:

The nation whose flag is flown by a merchant ship/yacht has legal jurisdiction on ships flying its flag so long as such ship is not in the territorial sea of another nation (in which case jurisprudence may be exercised on said merchant ship/yacht by the 'host country').


Yes, however, nations whose ships have been boarded have so far declined to prosecute pirates under statutes on the books: i.e., if a pirate vessel boards a ship from nation X, takes the crew hostage, hijacks the vessel, then nation X should have the legal authority to prosecute the pirates, no?

However, so far the pirates that have been caught have been "caught and released" unless they've gotten into a firefight with someone... for instance, the guys that boarded the German naval tanker the other day were set free... i am not sure why... perhaps shooting at a vessel isn't considered attempted murder, or attempted hijacking? Or perhaps Germany has no laws against it?

My bet is that they do have laws/statutes, but don't want to be bothered with the prosecution and incarceration.

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Post #: 52
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:31:00 AM   
marky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Already happening.


the convoys? bout time.

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Post #: 53
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:36:27 AM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curty


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

My point being the same as usual... people are morons.


Thats the attitude your typical sociapath would take though isn't it...insulting everyone!!!



I consider myself "people" as well... And if you didn't catch that, then thank you for proving my point. Again.


You will notice that I did not acuse you directly of being a sociapath, just that the way you tried to blot us out with your message didn't feel too good.

Piracy is every ones enemy (these poeple cost us a lot of money varying from how much it costs us for our trade to major trade partners to - as in the case of the Maersk Alabama- carrying soya and other food stuffs (mercy missions) to exactly the kind of places that these poeple come from ( ironicaly!). Pirates do not follow any political agenda, nor are they thinking of anyones interests but them selves!


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RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 1:44:33 AM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 12397
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

Dixie:

It won't save lives, in fact it would have the opposite effect in all probability.


quote:

Terminus:

If civilian crews are armed, hi-jackings will NOT stop, and the violence level will escalate. In all the ships that have been taken so far, how many casualties have there been among crews (hint: not many)? How many do you think there'll be if you up the stakes?


There's plenty of evidence to the contrary regarding human nature and human events (including piracy). But in the interest of avoiding a political discussion we can agree to disagree, eh?

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Post #: 55
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 2:07:20 AM   
TOMLABEL


Posts: 4720
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: CSA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

No idea about the "general" opinion, although it's probably along the lines of "Glen who?". My personal opinion would include a number of expletives.


Now would those expletives 'Positiven' or 'Negativen' in nature?

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Post #: 56
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 2:10:01 AM   
Curty

 

Posts: 269
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Barnard Castle,Durham County,UK
Status: offline 		Thing is, what would you do if you lived in an African coast fishing village (no-where town with no hope of being anyone or doing anything), are you going to be enticed by promises of riches if you 'join their happy crew' so to speak...or are you going to ignore it!

The choice is a NO-BRAINER for poeple in that part of the world, so it will continue...over to you people

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Post #: 57
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 2:19:26 AM   
TOMLABEL


Posts: 4720
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: CSA
Status: offline 		Well, as far as the US is concerned, it should take the same approach to piracy as T. Jefferson did. It really hasn't changed all that much since then.....and it wouldn't be the first time.

TOMLABEL

< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 4/11/2009 2:23:52 AM >

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Post #: 58
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 2:39:16 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5517
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Well, I for one would prefer to see the pirates deep sixed........As for arming the merchant ships, well that is their choice.......but if unarmed in an area that has risk, well you are on your own........until someone decided enough is enough and show the pirates that the only thing they will get for piracy is to become shark bait.

But to go for the lock.....nuke the entire place.

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Post #: 59
RE: OT – Errrrrrrr Pirates - 4/11/2009 2:45:46 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3852
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From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Okay, will this thread be clamped before the end of page 1 or not? Place your bets!


I'm going with a lock shortly into page 2.

As far as arming merchant ships go, my Dad for one is against it. He's got an interest in the matter seeing as he's been through the area several times in the last year.


Why is he against it ? I actually understand the insurance rate angle a bit, but still it seems like hiring security guards makes sense. And the whole idea of these pirates getting away with this is infuriating. Oh, and since this all takes place on the seven seas, it somehow relates to WiTP doesn't it ?


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