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Question about CRT - 4/4/2009 8:12:45 PM   
Haudrauf1962

 

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From: Plymouth, MA, USA
Status: offline 		I just checked the CRT in Kharkov and found out that the tables for open terrain, woods and hills are absolutely identical. That does not make any sense for me. Infantry can defend much better in a forest than in open terrain. Anybody knows the reasoning behind that? Can I expect any effects from terrain?

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/5/2009 12:50:30 AM   
Joe 98


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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: online 		For each terrain typr

The CRT is the same

The anti tank ability varies from one type to another

The effectiveness of indirect fire ( artillery) varies from one type to another.

-

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/5/2009 4:38:23 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		Ya the CRT info is bit hard to understand, but it helps me a lot to watch the roll result table when preparing attacks. It shows your odds of both losing steps and cause step losses to the targeted units. These results factor in the differences in terrain.

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/6/2009 1:58:04 AM   
Gregor_SSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Haudrauf1962

I just checked the CRT in Kharkov and found out that the tables for open terrain, woods and hills are absolutely identical. That does not make any sense for me. Infantry can defend much better in a forest than in open terrain. Anybody knows the reasoning behind that? Can I expect any effects from terrain?


As Joe has pointed out, we have chosen to emphasize the effects of terrain and artillery and armoured operations, rather than through manipulating the combat CRT. You will still find it easier to defend in difficult terrain.

Gregor

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/6/2009 3:35:33 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG


As Joe has pointed out, we have chosen to emphasize the effects of terrain and artillery and armoured operations, rather than through manipulating the combat CRT. You will still find it easier to defend in difficult terrain.

Gregor


Does that mean it's different from the terrain effects in Decisive Battles (BII and BIN) compared to Kharkov? I've recently been playing BII and BIN and gotten to like them a lot. I've heard of Battlefront games but never played them.

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/7/2009 12:43:01 AM   
Gregor_SSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG


As Joe has pointed out, we have chosen to emphasize the effects of terrain and artillery and armoured operations, rather than through manipulating the combat CRT. You will still find it easier to defend in difficult terrain.

Gregor


Does that mean it's different from the terrain effects in Decisive Battles (BII and BIN) compared to Kharkov? I've recently been playing BII and BIN and gotten to like them a lot. I've heard of Battlefront games but never played them.


It is different, but mostly only because of decisions made in the editor. The Kharkov system retains the ability to have a separate CRT for each terrain type, so people could design scenarios that implement that decision.

Probably the biggest difference between Kharkov and the older systems is the implementation of Areas of Operations. People had some questions at first, but I think now that everybody appreciates just how much it contributes to the game system.

Gregor

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/7/2009 4:16:54 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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Status: offline 		Thanks for your reply. Just to be clear in simple terms, defending on clear ground is no different from defending from a craggy mountain peak or a thick forest except that artillery and armor will not perform so well?

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/17/2009 2:22:41 AM   
Gregor_SSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

Thanks for your reply. Just to be clear in simple terms, defending on clear ground is no different from defending from a craggy mountain peak or a thick forest except that artillery and armor will not perform so well?


Well. there aren't any craggy mountain peaks in Kharkov so that part of the question doesn't apply, but in Kharkov some terrain that traditionally got a separate CRT doesn't. Terrain does affect Anti-Tank, Artillery, visibility of enemy units and possibly hedgehogging. In a different scenario these details could change, depending on the choices of the scenario designer.

Gregor

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/17/2009 3:55:17 AM   
Def Zep


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Status: offline 		There are differences in defending in different terrains, SSH, but they are indirect and affect various modifiers to the CRT column(s) used, rather than changing the CRT itself. (As is customary in most hex-based wargames.) I.E., instead of having different CRTs for clear and for rough terrain, here you have the same CRT, but the odds column used, and the DRM applied, changes depending on what type of terrain is used to defend in.

I will try to illustrate. Here is your basic clear terrain hex:




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RE: Question about CRT - 4/17/2009 3:57:14 AM   
Def Zep


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From: Out of the Silent Planet
Status: offline 		Next, for comparison, a regular hills hex:







Note that there are a few differences between the two, which are beneficial to the defender. I have underlined these with a light blue line:

1. First, in the middle column, we can see the anti-tank defense DRM is better for a hills hex. It is increased by one, and this DRM is now present in all weather (not just rain/mud, like in the clear hex).

This DRM will subtract one from the attacker's shock value (18.2) if he brings any armour along and tries to assault or overrun you with it.

2. Second, in the upper-right corner, we can see that all Indirect Fire (Artillery) placed against the hill will suffer a -1 to its "To-Hit" die roll, i.e., the artillery will have to roll a higher number to kill a step, just for being in better terrain than the open.

3. Third, +1 ("one hex") is added to the distance the defender is considered to be away from an enemy unit for spotting purposes (34.1, pg.101). It will be harder to spot your unit through the Fog of War (and have it appear on the map) when you are on a hill.



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< Message edited by Def Zep -- 4/17/2009 4:20:25 AM >

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/17/2009 4:25:49 AM   
Def Zep


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From: Out of the Silent Planet
Status: offline 		Now let's look at the CRT:







Because of being on a hill, we can see that we will derive a benefit (a marginal one, but a benefit nonetheless): The attacker will be able to get the "+3" shock result (a roll of "9") only if he has an armour unit rated 4 roundels or above (18.2). Since most armour (at least in Kharkov) is rated at 3 roundels or less, defending on a hill is usually good (in and of itself) for limiting the attacker's die-roll to "8 or less" on the CRT. This can save you a step, or keep you from surrendering.

Also, if he rolls very bad, he could end up with a "0" result! (Anti-tank value -1) - something that can't happen in the clear. (All other things being equal, i.e., no other factors entering into the equation, for purposes of this example.)


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< Message edited by Def Zep -- 4/17/2009 4:43:51 AM >

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/17/2009 4:57:29 AM   
Def Zep


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Status: offline 		Now let's look at entrenching. Basically, standing around in Kharkov is an invitation to disaster. All units, anywhere, should entrench as a matter of course, wherever possible. Note there are some pre-requisites for entrenching, which should be read carefully and committed to memory (16.6). They're simple, but vitally important to put into play. Basically, unentrenched = dead if attacked.

Keep that in mind, and you'll go far in this game. At least, farther than I usually get!









1. First, notice it is the act of entrenching, rather than terrain, that most impacts the CRT odds-column used. Entrenching varies for each side; the Germans are better at it. Here, we see they get a -3 column shift to the CRT for being dug-in. This will lower a 20-1 attack to a 5-1 (!), should no other modifiers be applied.

2. Furthermore, it is harder to get those odds to begin with; the DF of an entrenched German unit is increased by +70%.

3. Also, the Hidden factor is raised by 3 hexes for an entrenched unit. Taking our example above, a Hill adds another hex to this number, for a total of +4, i.e., an entrenched unit on a hill is counted as 4 hexes further away from an enemy unit in its vicinity attempting to sight it. Since even most reconnaisance units only have a +3 hex sighting bonus, this means your opponent will have to be adjacent to sight you and reveal you on the map.

4. Fourth, the number of artillery strikes permitted are reduced to just 2, and those need to roll an extra +1 on their die to hit. Combined with the hill, this means most artillery will need a 5 or a 6 to hit, and even heavy artillery will need a 3.

5. Finally, being entrenched will lower the odds of retreating. (And thus getting caught out in the open, unentrenched, for any follow-up attacks.) It will take something like an artillery strike, prior to close combat, to negate this DRM.



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< Message edited by Def Zep -- 4/17/2009 5:17:13 AM >

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/17/2009 5:28:32 AM   
Def Zep


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From: Out of the Silent Planet
Status: offline 		Summary

Although the CRT is standardized, the actual column used will vary depending on the terrain.

Also, DRM's will be applied to the roll made.

On top of these two, hex-side modifiers to combat factors and column-shifts will apply. (Like rivers, or adjacent friendly-occupied hexes.)

And lastly, direct fire can cause a step loss, over and above the result on the CRT.

Since, in the final analysis, the purpose of the CRT is to define the number of steps lost (and any retreat/surrender), a separate table for each terrain type is unnecessary. The appropriate column and row needed can be generated by the combination of column-shifts and DRM's applied in the above considerations.

Simple and elegant. Well done SSG!


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RE: Question about CRT - 4/19/2009 11:42:31 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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Status: offline 		Def Zep, thanks for posting this excellent lesson on CRT tables. It's awesome that you and Chris Merchant support the game like this. The parts about IF and Hidden Bonus are particularly helpful.

There is one part I'm not sure how to find on the table.

quote:

defending on a hill is usually good (in and of itself) for limiting the attacker's die-roll to "8 or less" on the CRT


It seems in the photo you have open ground selected so does the hill CRT show this information? I want to know exactly how to read this on the CRT info screen. Sorry if this is lame question from someone who's already played the game a lot. I'm the kind of player who goes in guns blazing so I need to learn to be more technical in my gaming.

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/19/2009 3:31:20 PM   
Carl Myers

 

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quote:

I want to know exactly how to read this on the CRT info screen.


You have to look at the Terrain Data screen and select Hills. At the bottom of the OP's table is the anti-shock value for that terrain. Alternatively, move the pointer to a terrain hex you wish to examine, right click to get the Terraian Information popup and look just below the Terrain Icon in the upper left to find the anti-shock value of the terrain.

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/20/2009 12:21:39 AM   
Def Zep


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From: Out of the Silent Planet
Status: offline 		Glad I could help out, SSH. And it's not a bad question at all!

The "Hill CRT" itself will not show this information. You have to calculate it. But it's pretty easy. Just select the terrain type you want to defend in on the Terrain Data screen. The green-outlined ATG symbol will show you the anti-shock benefit inherent to the hex (as seen in my second screenshot for the hills hex, above). Basically, this is a DRM to the combat die-roll, subtracting that number from the shock value of any attacking armour units. (In addition to the anti-shock value your units may themselves possess - see 18.2, pg.66 for a complete explanation of all this.)

Since hills give a -1 anti-shock, an armour unit will have be rated at 4 shock or above to max out on the CRT. ("+3" shock drm, indicated by the green-outlined tank symbol on the CRT, is as high as the attacker can go.) In Kharkov, however, most armour is 3 or less in shock value. Therefore, being on a hill means they'll usually only get a +2 or +1 shock against you, which reduces the possible range of results from dr=4-9, to dr=3-8.

That might be a little hard to explain, but it's easy to see in practice. Fire up a game and set both sides to human. Take about 10 Russian infantry regiments and move them to various terrain types. (You'll have to blow away the German front-line fortifications first - just do that in front of Kharkov with your artillery and you're all set!) Try moving them in pairs and set them up in similar terrain, one in friendly territory, and one in enemy. Entrench one (friendly terriory) and leave the other in standard formation (enemy territory). (Don't attack or fight anything with them for purposes of this exercise.) Then go over to the other side and take one of the German armour units. Move it up to different hexes and attack with it. Compare the different shock values and drm's you can get. You'll be able to see the terrain differences on combat.

Also, you'll quickly see units are worse off out in the open, and better off entrenched. (You might have to play a couple of German turns to move all around like this. No problem - just keep hitting the "next turn" button! )

Ten or fifteen minutes of doing this will give you a pretty good feel for how things inter-relate in this game. Also, Carl Myers is a noted authority on this system here and on the SSG Run 5 forums; I've learned a lot of good tips reading his posts.






Blow the frontline forts away like this and you're set!

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< Message edited by Def Zep -- 4/20/2009 12:28:23 AM >

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/20/2009 12:46:41 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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Status: offline 		Thanks for the detailed answer, very clear and concise.  I'll have to try that experimental game set-up you recommended.  Maybe this thread should be moved to the War Room cause Def Zep did a lot of work on it.

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/24/2009 6:07:39 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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Status: offline 		Def Zep, did you start playing Kharkov by email yet?

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/24/2009 10:20:25 PM   
Def Zep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

Def Zep, did you start playing Kharkov by email yet?


I haven't myself played via e-mail yet, SSH; I am following with some interest the SSG tournament for the game documented on their forums. Unfortunately, my work duties constrain my availability for turns somewhat, and my free time to spend on the game varies from week to week. This precludes me from committing to a certain speed of play, or a consistent turnaround time on submitting moves to an opponent. So I've focused more on just playing the AI (when I can) at present.

I have learned a great deal about strategies, tactics and courses of action one should follow from the advice given by the tournament participants, however. There should be some AAR's of matches played in the near future, which I greatly look forward to reading.

SSG has a small, but very active player base over there, and I am sure someone will give you a game if you post an "Opponents Wanted" message. If you do, please take some screenshots and tell all of us of your experiences! I first got interested in this game reading the posts Judge Dread made about his AAR.

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/24/2009 11:51:44 PM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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Status: offline 		Playing the AI in Kharkov is a major challenge anyways.   It's very well scripted and efficient.  I'm gonna write another AAR too next time I play Kharkov.  I gotta find that Run 5 forum again and see what's happening there.  I lost the bookmark when I upgraded my hard drives.  

Now I'm stuck in the Decisive Battles games. I played the Ardennes from both sides which was fun as either the USA or Germany, then played through the Italian scenarios again. I wonder if anyone plays the Ardennes by email? I like the design of that battle quite a lot.

< Message edited by SS Hauptsturmfuhrer -- 4/25/2009 1:07:46 AM >

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/25/2009 1:05:46 AM   
Carl Myers

 

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RE: Question about CRT - 4/25/2009 8:26:08 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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Status: offline 		Thanks for the link Carl.  Now I can try to get a game going with someone.

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