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Item for Estab list

 
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Item for Estab list - 3/28/2009 8:52:16 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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I was building my Allied force for an Operation Battleaxe scenario this PM, and found a problem with the estabs. When I went to do the infantry for the 11th Indian Bde, I couldn't find an entry for an infantry company in the Commonwealth estab. There's one for a CW motorized company, but nothing for non-motorized infantry. It would be a convenient and useful addition to the estabs were it to be included in future versions of SM.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/29/2009 1:09:47 AM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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I also noticed that there are no motorized versions of CW bde/div HQs.  This can really slow down the South Africans

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/29/2009 2:21:33 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

I also noticed that there are no motorized versions of CW bde/div HQs.  This can really slow down the South Africans


You haven't lived until you've cobbled together the "Central India Horse" or "Prince Albert Victor's Own" regiment with SM.

It really brings out the creativity in a fella.

Seriously, though, could we fudge a bit and strip the "motorized" Indian companies of some of their trucks, or provide extra trucks to the unmotorized HQ?

@Dave,

Would those be effective measures to deal with the problem in the near term?






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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/29/2009 3:51:26 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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I don't mean to seem immodest by quoting myself, but I can answer my own question:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

...or provide extra trucks to the unmotorized HQ?

Those HQ have no vehicles, so I'm pretty sure that none can be added.


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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/29/2009 1:52:00 PM   
Zorchi

 

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Estabs cant be modified (at least not with the tools available with the game). I've learnt so much so far from the threads in both forums.

But how does Panther team makes/modifies estabs? Hopefully they have some sort of editor, or is the whole thing hardcoded by hand with some source code templates that they have?

< Message edited by Zorchi -- 3/29/2009 2:05:22 PM >

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/29/2009 11:27:52 PM   
Arjuna


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We use two rather crude tools. An Estab Editor to enter the data and spit out xml files and an Estab Manager to compile the xml files into the binary data used by the game.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/30/2009 2:56:29 PM   
Zorchi

 

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Probably you have good reasons as to why not letting those tools out.
Is it maybe just that you are not satisfied with the suitability of UI of the current editors fot the masses. Or is the reason deeper, perhaps deepseded in the fact that correctly modellig weapons and units is a complex balancing process in its own right. One you dont want't to push onto the casual modders for fear of scaring them away...

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/31/2009 12:18:56 AM   
Deathtreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorchi

Probably you have good reasons as to why not letting those tools out.
Is it maybe just that you are not satisfied with the suitability of UI of the current editors fot the masses. Or is the reason deeper, perhaps deepseded in the fact that correctly modellig weapons and units is a complex balancing process in its own right. One you dont want't to push onto the casual modders for fear of scaring them away...


Hi all,

Just wondering about PoE's request for non-motorized CW infantry units and motorized brigade Hq's at the start of this thread.
Arjuna, would it be possible for you folks to put a few new estabs along these lines in the interest of user scenario creation?? If BFTB is going to be followed by Normandy followed by the Eastern front it could be a couple of years (or a little longer) before you got back to the Med/N.Africa -- much less 1940/1941. Maybe as a little bonus included with BFTB as a seperate zip file or something for those who already have COTA??
Just a thought.........

Rob.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/31/2009 12:24:01 AM   
Arjuna


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Not a bad suggestion Rob. I'm head down, tail up here trying to wrap up BFTB. Please remind me again once BFTB is out and I'll see what we can do.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/31/2009 4:07:15 AM   
simovitch


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Adding the CW estabs was kind of an afterthought to provide a different colour to the SA armoured car regiments and a few other units. I probably should have fleshed out the foot troops and motorized HQ's as well. For now any of the ANZAC estabs will have to suffice - except for colour they are identical to the CW estabs right down to the last Boys ATR.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/31/2009 1:40:46 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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Ah, but the Anzac bde/div HQ's are non-motorized as well. So I've used UK mot. inf. Bde/Div HQs. Looks funny, but it works. It's not usually that big of a deal, but if the AI is using those HQ's to control troops, it ends up slowing CW motorized infantry units as they are tied to their [slow] HQ. I can strip off all the subordinate units and send them forward (I'm thinking of the CoA Sidi Rezegh scenario), and let the HQ plod along on its own. Also, I just don't see the Bde or Div CG walking while his troops ride. RHIP.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/31/2009 4:06:44 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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I found what amounts to a typo in the German/Heer estabs, but it has practical implications for the game(so I thought that I should report it).

The following entry:

1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-15cm how

Is indicated as having 105mm howitzer:






Attachment (1)

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/31/2009 8:05:28 PM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader
Maybe as a little bonus included with BFTB as a seperate zip file or something for those who already have COTA??
Just a thought.........

Rob.

No worries, I'll modify the COTA estabs as suggested here and slip the update into the BFTB data Content folder when Dave isn't looking.

1. Add Motorized CW and ANZAC Bde and Div HQ's
2. Change 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-15cm how to 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-10.5cm how

Anything else?

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RE: Item for Estab list - 3/31/2009 11:39:41 PM   
Arjuna


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Hey RIchard, I'm looking!

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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/1/2009 7:11:55 AM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader
Maybe as a little bonus included with BFTB as a seperate zip file or something for those who already have COTA??
Just a thought.........

Rob.

No worries, I'll modify the COTA estabs as suggested here and slip the update into the BFTB data Content folder when Dave isn't looking.

1. Add Motorized CW and ANZAC Bde and Div HQ's
2. Change 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-15cm how to 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-10.5cm how

Anything else?


At this point, that's about all that I can ask for, the amendments, I mean.

For the uninitiated, creation of proper estabs appear to entail not only painstaking and laborious research, but considerable clerical skills as well.

I'm a wargamer, and its my nature to want more of everything, and want it done in a fashion that suits my particular set of wants and prejudices.

That noted, I genuinely appreciate any help that Panther Games can lend in association with its legacy products.

On the long term, it'd be simply awesome if updates to the SM and the estabs could interface with the older games.

Might not be hurt sales, either.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/1/2009 1:41:07 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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Don't know if this is an estab issue, but I've been fooling around with a custom Sidi Rezegh scenario that uses the DAK's corps assets, and one weird glitch I've encountered is the 1st bty of flak bn 606 will disband into the 3rd bty the instant it loses it's first vehicle.  Repeatedly- every time without fail.  That leaves the 3rd bty as a really strong unit, which isn't a terrible thing, but it seems unusual to have that happen consistently.


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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/1/2009 11:26:44 PM   
Arjuna


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At what strength does it start the scenario? How many guns does it have at the start of the scenario?

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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/1/2009 11:36:50 PM   
Franklin Nimitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

At what strength does it start the scenario? How many guns does it have at the start of the scenario?


Default full strength - 12 AA halftracks in each battery. Then one shot, and suddenly one battery is disbanded, and the other has 23-24 AA halftracks at that point. Nothing 'disappears' per se, but it is strange. I can provide a saved game, but I imagine you've got better things to do right now that would be more productive.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/2/2009 12:03:10 AM   
Arjuna


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That is certainly weird. Yes I would rather not be distracted by this at the moment. However, we should look into it. Once BFTB is out we can do so.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/3/2009 11:05:00 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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quote:


Original: simovitch
No worries, I'll modify the COTA estabs as suggested here and slip the update into the BFTB data Content folder when Dave isn't looking.

1. Add Motorized CW and ANZAC Bde and Div HQ's
2. Change 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-15cm how to 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-10.5cm how

Anything else?


Under the German estabs, there's an entry for a brigade:

1m-hr.pzd-Schuetzen Bde HQ

But, there's no base unit included for that level.


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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/5/2009 12:20:27 AM   
Deathtreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

quote:


Original: simovitch
No worries, I'll modify the COTA estabs as suggested here and slip the update into the BFTB data Content folder when Dave isn't looking.

1. Add Motorized CW and ANZAC Bde and Div HQ's
2. Change 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-15cm how to 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-10.5cm how

Anything else?


Under the German estabs, there's an entry for a brigade:

1m-hr.pzd-Schuetzen Bde HQ

But, there's no base unit included for that level.



Hi all,

Wasn't there mention of a need for non-motorized UK & CW infantry units as well?? To simulate Imperial troops from India I believe...........

Thanks Richard!

Rob.


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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/6/2009 6:27:52 AM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

1. Add Motorized CW and ANZAC Bde and Div HQ's
2. Change 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-15cm how to 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-10.5cm how

Anything else?

While we're at it, what about some French units? I can't create 1940 French forces with the current "Free French" estabs. There are no French tanks, like the "H35", "R35" or "S35" etc.

I found some good french OOBs, but I'd need french arty, LMGs/HMGs, mortars, light division units, 25mm anti-tank guns, armored (recon) cars (i.e. AMD 35 "Panhard 178") and french tanks. That source even lists armor penetration values for their guns (IG, FH, cars, tanks). I could use the british estabs for AA units (i.e. hotchkiss) and other "borrowed" equipment.

I'd like to create a fictional Saarland scenario (where the French army attacks instead of stopping after moving 8km into Germany just to put their fingers in their noses to fight a "phoney war" ), and I want to convert my Cologne scenario for COTA (with the French forces + the BEF attacking this time).

I'd appreciate some help.


< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 4/6/2009 6:45:00 AM >


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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/7/2009 2:46:11 AM   
GoodGuy

 

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*BUMP*

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"Aw Nuts"
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December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/7/2009 6:13:43 AM   
Arjuna


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GoodGuy,

We're very busy right now focusing on BFTB. I'm sorry but any significant estab changes for COTA will have to wait till after BFTB is out. Please remind us then and we'll look into this matter then.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/8/2009 3:48:02 AM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

GoodGuy,

We're very busy right now focusing on BFTB. I'm sorry but any significant estab changes for COTA will have to wait till after BFTB is out. Please remind us then and we'll look into this matter then.


My bad. I meant to say BFTB.
Ok, but this makes me wonder now. Can you tell us what estabs are going to be included in BFTB? I'm asking because Simo or you stated that HTTR estabs will make it in there for sure, so I'm wondering if COTA estabs are going to be included as well?
If so, only a relatively small change (we're talking about 16 units only, 3 diff tank coys {3 diff models} included) to the BFTB estab package would be necessary...
For France/Germany 1940/41 scenarios:

    foot:
  • INF coy
  • INF HQ coy
  • INF mortar coy
  • INF base unit


    motorized:
  • mot. INF coy
  • mot. INF HQ coy
  • mot. INF base unit
  • mot. INF arty unit
  • tank HQ unit
  • tank coy (R35, H35, S35)
  • armored car coy (Panhard 178)
  • mot. 25mm AT coy
  • mot. FH 18 reg (arty)
  • mot. IG 18 coy


The rest can be created using british equipment (existing estabs).

That would be cool ! Give us some candy !

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 4/8/2009 4:01:00 AM >


_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to Arjuna)
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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/8/2009 6:59:22 AM   
Arjuna


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GoodGuy,

BFTB will not include the COTA estabs but it will include sufficient estabs to cover HTTR. 

Re Estabs for France 1940. We will review matters after BFTB is out. One option might be to release a COTA v2 and a France 1940 expansion pack for it. Nothing has been decided on yet and I don't want get involved in a discussion about that now. I need to focus on getting BFTB out the door.

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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/13/2009 3:39:54 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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It appears that the Panzer III Ausf. G has been left out of the CotA estabs.

Production of the type was about twice that of the more heavily armoured Panzer III Ausf. H in 1940-41.

As far as unit composition, records indicate a roughly a fifty-fifty ratio between the two models in North Africa.




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RE: Item for Estab list - 4/16/2009 10:33:44 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

It appears that the Panzer III Ausf. G has been left out of the CotA estabs.

Production of the type was about twice that of the more heavily armoured Panzer III Ausf. H in 1940-41.

As far as unit composition, records indicate a roughly a fifty-fifty ratio between the two models in North Africa.


Correct, Ausf. G is missing. Question is, how many "G"s had been produced - and when. Also, after a quick check of the estabs, I regret to say that the Panzer III Ausführung H has the wrong gun. The estabs list the following armaments for the Panzer III Ausf. F and Ausf. H:

  • PzKw III F - KwK 36
    PzKw III H - KwK 38

That's not correct, as the label in the estab would suggest the Panzer III would have had a 2cm gun (the KwK 38), where it was in fact equipped with 3.7cm and 5cm guns later on.

Also, with the current labeling in the estabs, the "Panzer III KwK 36" can be confused with the KwK 36 guns of the Tiger I tank. The Tiger was equipped with a 8.8 cm gun, and its designation was KwK 36 L/56. The Panzer III's first gun's designation was either KwK 35/36 L/45, or just (3.7cm) KwK L/45, as far as i know.

Also, I wonder whether COTA/BFTB take different versions/types of ammo into account (regarding penetration values) or not, anyway here goes:


  • The initial standard ammo for the Panzer III was the Panzergranate 38 (3.7 cm AP+HE), which allowed for interchangeability with the Infantry's 3.7cm-PaK anti-tank guns.

    It would be a really cool feature if BFTB (or the next installment) would take interchangeability of ammunition into account, i.e. interchang. of AP/HE of German PaKs/tank guns, when it comes to resupply-requests - or when setting supply-priorities.

  • Anyway, then the Panzergranate 40 (3.7 cm) delivered better results. Same with the 5cm-guns mounted on the Panzer III later on, the Panzergranate 39 and 40 (AP, both 5cm) delivered better results than the initially used 5cm-Panzergranate 38. For infantry support, the Germans kept using the Panzer-Sprenggranate 38 (HE) for both guns (37mm and 50mm), with the respective calibres.


I'll list the actual armament of the different Pz II + III models, according to the "Lexikon der Wehrmacht" (I guess checking JENTZ will confirm that):

Panzer II:

  • Ausführung A - G (where F was the production model, along with the successor Pz II "L" {"Luchs"}, while all the other types {A - J} were either prototypes or special versions with low production numbers):
    2cm KwK 30/L55

  • Ausführung G and J:
    2cm KwK 38 L/55

  • Ausführung L:
    KwK 39

Panzer III

  • Ausführung A - G:
    3.7cm KwK L/45

  • Ausführung H - M:
    5cm KwK 39 L/60
´

RE: Numbers of Panzer III
The "Lexikon der Wehrmacht" states the following numbers:

Production of Panzer III:



  • Pz III Ausführung A, B and C:

    Protypes.

  • 30-55 Panzer III Ausführung D

    Sources vary regarding the number of units. Prototypes/pre-production models.

    Upgraded front and side armor: 30mm
    30-55 units. Armament: 3.7cm-KwK L/45

  • 500 Panzer III Ausführung E

    First model to be accepted by the German Army: first production model.
    After the Campaign in the West (France 1940) 52 Type "E" were converted for the scheduled invasion of England (operation Seelion) - which means they were equipped with a "wade-addon", which allowed for crossing rivers/water barriers - to a depth of 3.96 meters. As "Seelion" was canceled, these 52 tanks were given to the 18th Panzer-Division, where they turned out to be of great value, as German armored units had to cross numerous rivers in Russia.

  • 440 Panzer III Ausführung F

    While, according to the Lexikon, most sources indicate that 440 Type "F" units had been produced from Sept. 1939 - Juli 1940, they emphasize that one source mentions 435 and/or 500 units.

  • 600 Panzer III Ausführung G

    1940-1941. Changes: Upgraded armor, 5-cm KwK L/42. Many of the types "E" and "F" were upgraded with this gun later on.

  • 1,400 Panzer III Ausführung H

    The Lexikon points out that one source indicates that only 308 units of this type had been produced. Improved turret, additional (welded?) armor-plating (30mm) placed on weak spots, most likely as interim-solution.

  • 650 Panzer III Ausführung J

    Production started in March 1941, with the 5cm-KwK L/42 short-barreled gun, but from January 1942 onwards the last 1,067 units (of a total of 1,549 units) had been equipped with the new 5cm-KwK 39 L/60.

    Hitler learned that the "Heeres-Waffenamt" (Army ordnance-office) gave orders to equip this new version of the Panzer III with the short-barreled L/42 - as the priority for the long-barreled KwK 39 L/60 used to rest on installing it on PaK 38 trailers, as an anti-tank gun - although Hitler had ordered to mount the KwK L/60 on the Panzer III.

    Hull and rear armor had been increased to 50mm, finally.

  • 168 Panzer III (Types F, G and H) were converted to Panzer III "Tauchpanzer" ("dive tanks", tanks that could "dive", means wade through pretty deep waters) for the initial landings during the planned invasion of England, but, unlike the converted Type E tanks mentioned above, these Tauchpanzer could "dive" to a depth of 15 meters, using a snorkel add-on (18 meters).


These are the models that had a "chance" of getting fielded on the COTA theatre or on the African theatre, during 1941-1942.

I'll dig out some books to see if JENTZ came up with numbers.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 4/17/2009 2:07:32 AM >


_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to Prince of Eckmühl)
Post #: 28
RE: Item for Estab list - 4/16/2009 11:13:09 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


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Nice overview of the type here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-299999180492714026


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Post #: 29
RE: Item for Estab list - 4/17/2009 12:05:01 AM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1501
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

  • 600 Panzer III Ausführung G

    1940-1941. Changes: Upgraded armor, 5-cm KwK L/42. Many of the types "E" and "F" were upgraded with this gun later on.

  • 1,400 Panzer III Ausführung H

    The Lexikon points out that one source indicates that only 308 units of this type had been produced. Improved turret, additional (welded?) armor-plating (30mm) placed on weak spots, most likely as interim-solution.


  • quote:

    ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

    Production of the type was about twice that of the more heavily armoured Panzer III Ausf. H in 1940-41.

    As far as unit composition, records indicate a roughly a fifty-fifty ratio between the two models in North Africa.


    Soooo... If this one source (which the Lexikon mentioned, without prodividing details about the "source") is right, Type G had a higher production number than "H" (with 308 tanks) and a higher numerical presence among the Divisions, most likely.

    Btw, Ausf. H wasn't exactly heavily armored, it received 30mm-"add-ons", most likely on weak spots where the armor was less than the standard 30mm plates, so I doubt that this really created an armor of 60mm on vital spots (like turret face or front glacis). Jentz describes the differences correctly, most likely, but I'm too lazy to go and check right now.

    Oh, and this: In the video, the narrator says that Hitler only learned of the disobedience (regarding equipping the Panzer III with the "wrong" 50mm gun - the shortbarrreled version) of the Army ordnance-office in January 1941, while the Lexikon insists on Januar 1942 as the point where the factories then exclusively mounted the long-barreled versions. The Lexikon usually got it down, regarding dates, but I'm not sure here. I can't imagine Hitler to wait for a change of the gun for a full year, so either the Lexikon or the video's narrator is wrong. Gonna check Jentz and other sources.

    Anyway, POE, what's your source?


    < Message edited by GoodGuy -- 4/17/2009 12:46:28 AM >


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