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Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and reinforcement phases –the easy way

 
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Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and rei... - 2/25/2009 2:57:45 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Hi Marshall
In another thread you mentioned that you could put the insurrection trigger area button in both the diplomacy and reinforcement phases, which got me thinking, why not put all the reinforcement function buttons in both the reinforcement and diplomacy phases? This way, if you have reinforcements coming, need to add/retire a leader, or loan a corps, you can do it at the same time as you do diplomacy and skip your reinforcement with no loss in functionality, i.e. essentially eliminate the reinforcement phase from the game, with a resultant leap in game speed.
And unlike the other skipping options which are mostly intended for nations at peace, this could be used during war time by most players. Most players are fighting France, who does reinforcement last anyways, so what difference does it make to Prussia/Austria/etc. if you place your reinforcements during the diplomacy or reinforcement phases?
Unless you are France, the only time reinforcement really counts is immediately upon a DOW when you might want to move into garrisons, place leaders and loan corps. A DOW against you would clear the skipping settings, so you would still get to do this (by doing a second reinforcement phase). And implementing this could knock 10-20% off game play time during a war, which is a considerable improvement. Almost as good as skipping is proving to be.
It might take an extra line or two of code to prevent is removing a leader during the diplomacy phase and then placing him somewhere else during the reinforcement phase. And if you loaned corps in the diplomacy phase, but there was a DOW against you, you’d need a way to change who you loaned them to (maybe a DOW against you clears the skip settings and any loan corps setting made during the diplomacy phase). And if you gained control of a minor, then you’d have essentially two reinforcement phases, but this is no big deal, as long as you only place the troops once. Obivously, if you did not place your reinforcements during the diplomacy phase, they would all be waiting for you to place them in the reinforcement phase as normal.
Unlike auto-deployment and auto-forage options which you indicated might be a little tough to do, this seems pretty straight forward to do with existing code, and would speed things up quite a bit. What do you think? It might well be worth the little bit of effort required.
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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/25/2009 3:31:40 AM   
NeverMan

 

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This idea doesn't bother me.

Although, I would like to see the DOWs before I put on my reinforcements, etc.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/25/2009 2:19:20 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Neverman has a great point here. I would think thast several folks would like to react to the DOW announcements, no?


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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/25/2009 6:46:36 PM   
Ted1066


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I know I would - reinforcement placement is contingent on what occurs in the diplomacy phase. I don't see how you could effectively merge these two phases without losing some ability to react to what occurred in the diplomacy phase. In FtF EiA, diplomacy was done simultaneously (for DoWs and negotiations mainly), so some time-savings could be had there if a way to handle it was developed.

I suppose if you were to build some of the reinforcement placement into the Diplomacy Phase and then opt to skip your reinforcement phase, that would work well to streamline gameplay,

Ted

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/25/2009 10:15:34 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Actually, during peacetime, it could work. But, if either power is or gets into a war (with anybody or any thing), the "combining" should be canceled.

I'm not exactly sure how that could be done, though.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/26/2009 2:59:46 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Neverman has a great point here. I would think thast several folks would like to react to the DOW announcements, no?



Marshall, well, if you are skipping anyways, you can't react to the DOW against a third player, so third part DOWs are not important. I assume you mean a DOW against the player who placed his reinforcements during the dip phase. If this is the case and it is a problem, the game could clear the reinforcement placements just like the skip settings (i.e. revert to the forces at the end of the previous phase), and the player can place them again during his now unskipped reinforcement.

To everyone else, I am not proposing getting rid of the reinforcement phase. I'm saying let players place their reinforcements in either the reinforcement or diplomacy phases (or both). This way, unless you are France and you are at war, you can skip all your reinforcements at no real loss, almost all of the time. Essentially this elimiates a quarter of the phases. A pretty big gain in game speed.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/26/2009 12:34:06 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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The problem you may run into with allowing this is this:

Diplomacy is essentially simultaneous so the turn order is unimportant. Reinforcement, however, is NOT simultaneous and the turn order is intentional (France last) so tell me would France would want EVERYBODY else to be able to perhaps see where she placed her forces BEFORE they placed theirs??? I would think it would be used VERY little (IMO).



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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/26/2009 2:48:48 PM   
NeverMan

 

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1) It COULD work if an MP is at peace AND the reinforcements aren't shown until the MP's turn (thus essentially making it in order).

2) It would only work if it is cancelled if the MP ends up at war at the end of the Dip Phase. If "skipping" doesn't work this way then it should, although doing your Reinf phase early AND skipping your Reinf phase altogether are NOT the same. If you skip, you probably didn't have anything to do anyways, BUT if you are going early you might have a lot of activity just that you didn't realize someone was going to DOW you that month.

EDIT: Oh yeah and aren't all my points great Marshall? LOL.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/26/2009 3:45:53 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Marshall, I agree that reinforcing order is very important, especially to GB and France. However, GB's phase order is totally backwards from where it should be anyhow! They should be last in naval, but early in land. With reinforcing combined already, GB is heavily penalized vs. EiA. Still, other facts may make up for that, and GB always knows how many ships are in enemy or potential enemy ports, so there aren't very many surprises possible.

But, the bottom line is that GB and France are highly unlikely to EVER skip their reinforcement phase, and both will definitely be interested in the placements of other powers' troops and ships.

If any changes are made to reinforcement, I recommend the following:

Move GB to second-to-last in the reinforcement order.
If possible, move GB's naval (only) reinforcements to dead last. If this is done, the previous item is not needed.
If any powers' reinforcement phases are made semi-simultaneous (as described by others above), exclude GB and France from this (so they remain last). In other words, only 5 major powers would have semi-simultaneous reinforcement.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/27/2009 2:30:03 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Ok, I don't think you guys are not getting what I am suggesting. I should have simply described this, as "when a player skips his reinforcement turn, the buttons associated with reinforcment functions become available during the diplomacy phase". That's it.

It is skipping, while retaining the functionality of reinfocement turn. It would speed up the game because, a) presently you can not skip a reinforcement phase when receiving reinforcements, and b) some countries (almost anyone but France), shouldn't really care when their reinforcements are revealed so could opt to "skip" reinforcement almost all the time. France would never "skip" reinforcement anyways, so for France it is not an issue. This means skipping could be done by 5 or 6 of the players almsot all the time (assuming they want to), while France keeps her ability to place reinforcements last.

Does this make it clearer?

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/27/2009 2:38:28 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Jimmer, since GB (and everyone else) knows exactly many ships will arrive, where they arrive and when they arrive before the reinforcement phase begins, she can surely react to any naval placements at any time during the naval phase. How can going last during a naval reinforcement phase ever be an advantage over this knowledge?

I know you have pointed this out before, but I can not see how adding a naval reinforcement phase for GB only is worth the effort, and the slowing the game down for all players by 3+%.

The idea is only now possibly acceptable, if GB skips her reinforcement phase all the time, in which case why bother? I rarely even see anyone but Britain build ships anyways.

I'm sorry Jimmer, I just don't like the idea of changes to account for naval reinforcements. .

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/27/2009 3:44:56 AM   
Jimmer

 

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It's not a change so much as an un-change (i.e. getting back to EiA). But, I agree that there are other factors, and it's not critical.

IF, however, the reinforcement phase is changed, now is the time to fix this problem, at least as well as possible.

And, I agree with the idea of the buttons "pre-loading", if you will, when a skip is upcoming.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/27/2009 12:42:27 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

EDIT: Oh yeah and aren't all my points great Marshall? LOL.


You bet they are (When I agree with them) LOL!


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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 2/28/2009 12:38:16 PM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Hi Marshall,
is this an idea that can be implmented without toomcuh difficulty?

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/2/2009 9:12:16 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might not be simple.

< Message edited by Marshall Ellis -- 3/3/2009 2:04:29 PM >


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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/2/2009 9:29:21 PM   
flipperwasirish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.


I bet it is easier than dividing by zero.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/3/2009 12:26:25 AM   
NeverMan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.



YOu don't have to make it so that 1 file is created, just that the player can do his Reinf right after he does his Dip, or whatever, still creating 2 files.

< Message edited by NeverMan -- 3/3/2009 12:27:14 AM >

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/3/2009 2:06:06 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.


I bet it is easier than dividing by zero.


No actually dividing by zero is simple, quantifying the result is a little tougher :-)



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Post #: 18
RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/3/2009 2:07:14 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.



YOu don't have to make it so that 1 file is created, just that the player can do his Reinf right after he does his Dip, or whatever, still creating 2 files.


Throwing stuff into a file would not be the problem. The problem is that it is illegal to add factors to a garrison in the diplomacy phase, for example.




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Not if you are Irish - 3/3/2009 2:29:39 PM   
flipperwasirish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.


I bet it is easier than dividing by zero.


No actually dividing by zero is simple, quantifying the result is a little tougher :-)



It is simple if you understand universal laws of physics and the interaction with attitude.

60% = Beef
25% = Chicken
5% = Pork
10% = Beer




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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/3/2009 2:53:43 PM   
NeverMan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.



YOu don't have to make it so that 1 file is created, just that the player can do his Reinf right after he does his Dip, or whatever, still creating 2 files.


Throwing stuff into a file would not be the problem. The problem is that it is illegal to add factors to a garrison in the diplomacy phase, for example.





That's what I'm saying, would it be easier to keep the phases separate, but allow them to be done out of order?

For example, you wouldn't be adding garrisons in the Dip Phase, you would be adding them in the Reinf Phase... AFTER you had already done your Dip Phase and created a file for the Dip Phase.

I'm not aware of the code mechanics, I'm just wondering.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 21
RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/4/2009 10:45:11 AM   
iamspamus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.



YOu don't have to make it so that 1 file is created, just that the player can do his Reinf right after he does his Dip, or whatever, still creating 2 files.


Throwing stuff into a file would not be the problem. The problem is that it is illegal to add factors to a garrison in the diplomacy phase, for example.





That's what I'm saying, would it be easier to keep the phases separate, but allow them to be done out of order?

For example, you wouldn't be adding garrisons in the Dip Phase, you would be adding them in the Reinf Phase... AFTER you had already done your Dip Phase and created a file for the Dip Phase.

I'm not aware of the code mechanics, I'm just wondering.


I'd prefer that too...oh, wait. Is it Neverman again? D@MN! I agree with him two times in a row??? We need to check him for the 666 mark...

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/4/2009 2:19:15 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

The difficulty wuld be that certain things can be done in the reinf phase that cannot be done in diplomacy??? Putting the buttons is nto the only thing that would need changing. I certainly think it could be done BUT this might no be siomple.



YOu don't have to make it so that 1 file is created, just that the player can do his Reinf right after he does his Dip, or whatever, still creating 2 files.


Throwing stuff into a file would not be the problem. The problem is that it is illegal to add factors to a garrison in the diplomacy phase, for example.





That's what I'm saying, would it be easier to keep the phases separate, but allow them to be done out of order?

For example, you wouldn't be adding garrisons in the Dip Phase, you would be adding them in the Reinf Phase... AFTER you had already done your Dip Phase and created a file for the Dip Phase.

I'm not aware of the code mechanics, I'm just wondering.


That might be a little tough simply because when your diplomacy is done then the phase converts to the next player's diplomacy and not your reinf and changing that mechanic would be a little tough, I think???


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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/4/2009 4:01:43 PM   
NeverMan

 

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Ok, that is what I was wondering. Like I said, I don't know the code or how robust the engine is.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/4/2009 4:46:31 PM   
Jimmer

 

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The more I think about this, the worse it sounds. The game has already been dumbed down a huge amount to reduce playing time. Putting diplo and reinforcement together would make it even worse. Now, during guaranteed peace periods (times when you cannot declare war or be declared upon), this would work. However, such times simply don't exist except in contrived scenarios.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/5/2009 2:30:05 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Hi Jimmer
I think you might be confused by the thread title, which in hindsight, is quite misleading. I am only proposing, that if a player has selected to skip his reinforcement turn, then he has the option to place reinforcements during his diplmacy phase. If the player does not skip reinforcement, then nothing changes, there is no combined phases.
The problem appears to be that it is too difficult, even using Neverman's suggestion that when reinforcement is skipped, the diplomacy phase is immediately followed by the reinforcement mechanics.
Here are the current proposed mechanics: It is the dip phase and Player A has selected to skip rein. Player A creates a dip file, then goes directly to his reinforcement phase interface and immediately creates a rein file. He sends out both the dip and rein files to all players at the same time. The other players load player A's dip file as normal, and player A's rein file sits in the "comin" directory until later. Assuming that nothing happens to undo the skip (i.e. a DOW or gain control of a minor), then when it comes to Player A's rein turn, instead of waiting for Player A to do his turn, everyone simply loads the rein file already in the comin directory. If something happens to undo the skip, Player A's rein file in the commin directory is ignored, and Player A must create a new file as normal. This is not the same as combined dip and rein phase.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

The more I think about this, the worse it sounds. The game has already been dumbed down a huge amount to reduce playing time. Putting diplo and reinforcement together would make it even worse. Now, during guaranteed peace periods (times when you cannot declare war or be declared upon), this would work. However, such times simply don't exist except in contrived scenarios.


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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/5/2009 1:29:45 PM   
NeverMan

 

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It appears to me that this is too much trouble (for ME) for the little result that we (the players) would get. The ratio of performance gain to work does not seem to be very high.

Maybe later on down the road (~5 years or so) when the major bugs have been worked out of this game.

(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 27
RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/5/2009 3:14:03 PM   
Jimmer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Hi Jimmer
I think you might be confused by the thread title, which in hindsight, is quite misleading. I am only proposing, that if a player has selected to skip his reinforcement turn, then he has the option to place reinforcements during his diplmacy phase. If the player does not skip reinforcement, then nothing changes, there is no combined phases.
The problem appears to be that it is too difficult, even using Neverman's suggestion that when reinforcement is skipped, the diplomacy phase is immediately followed by the reinforcement mechanics.
Here are the current proposed mechanics: It is the dip phase and Player A has selected to skip rein. Player A creates a dip file, then goes directly to his reinforcement phase interface and immediately creates a rein file. He sends out both the dip and rein files to all players at the same time. The other players load player A's dip file as normal, and player A's rein file sits in the "comin" directory until later. Assuming that nothing happens to undo the skip (i.e. a DOW or gain control of a minor), then when it comes to Player A's rein turn, instead of waiting for Player A to do his turn, everyone simply loads the rein file already in the comin directory. If something happens to undo the skip, Player A's rein file in the commin directory is ignored, and Player A must create a new file as normal. This is not the same as combined dip and rein phase.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

The more I think about this, the worse it sounds. The game has already been dumbed down a huge amount to reduce playing time. Putting diplo and reinforcement together would make it even worse. Now, during guaranteed peace periods (times when you cannot declare war or be declared upon), this would work. However, such times simply don't exist except in contrived scenarios.



Yes, you are correct. That limited version sounds OK. The objections above were more general.

By the way, see my last post in the "move french naval" thread on this subject. The two are tied to each other.

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RE: Skipping expansion 3: Pseudo combined Diplomacy and... - 3/6/2009 12:36:29 PM   
Dancing Bear

 

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How about we allow DOW's to be done using a GAP-like program (i.e. an outside program which is done simmultaneously), with the remaining dip functions unchanged (except players would then be able to email one another to say France has DOW'ed on me, and I will call you to allies, so set your boxes appropriately -much better than current system).

With DOW's done simultaneously, almost everyone can skip normal diplomacy all the time (again a DOW (against any major, or any minor ally of a major would clear the skip settings). You could still opt to skip the GAP like program.

This adds one simmultaneous phase, buts makes skipping of the normal diplomacy possible in 90% of all cases, essentially elminated diplomacy.

(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 29
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