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How not to break the AI?

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> How not to break the AI? Page: [1]
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How not to break the AI? - 2/6/2009 11:25:30 PM   
Lomri

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 2/6/2009
Status: offline
I've been lurking a long time on these forums, on and off. I played a few games of UV, and jumped right on WiTP when it came out. I played about 5 months before the leader bug started really playing havoc. Being patient and realizing a single run through of the game could take me a full year, I figured I'd set aside the game and pick it up after all the bugs were ironed out!

Because of that decision I loaded up the game as Japan (I was playing Allies) and saw that the AI was in dismal shape. It looks like it 'threw a rod', and fell out of the scripted set of advances. I still held Rangoon with no sign of any advance, as well as Timor.

That was a long time ago, and now I'm back and playing a fully patched game. So far I'm really happy, some retreating Dutch took back Sabang and the AI prompt came and retook it.

I never got into a hex game like WiTP, and I get a bit lazy on the micro-management sometimes, but even with the AI set to hard I feel like my dumb mistakes just make up for the fact that the AI can't react like a human would.

So, enough of the long story, this is my question:
Generally speaking, what kind of behavior is best avoided so that you don't totally screw up the AI's scripting? I'm playing as Allies vs an AI Japan.

I'm not planning on doing anything crazy like going straight for Tori Shima, but I have held on to Manila until 7/04/42 (still have it, but several days ago my supplies went from 4200 to 0! Thanks to WitP tracker for making that easy to notice!). Right now I have several divisions pinned down at Mandalay (it's cheesy only leaving a division in India I know, but it's hard to resist). I'm worried that this will do more than just delay the AI, that it might break it and end offensive maneuvers. I also kept Wake, and the AI has sent KB up a few times and left again, sometimes with transports near by that never try to land.

Anyhow, I don't really have the ability to commit to PBEM, and I have lots of fun with the game even against the AI.
Post #: 1
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/7/2009 12:06:21 AM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		Play a mostly historical advance.  Set up a few House Rules for yourself to not take advantage of the AI.

Set "no reinforcements" for Malaya, PI, Hong Kong, etc unless you can get a supply ship in {This may cause a reduced supply usage that could cause issues}.
Do not use same hex supply training.
Do not evac cadres, evac the whole unit.
Do not hold Manila unless you replace MacA.
Leave Percival in Singapore.
Do not use PT boats for mid-ocean intercepts {I did this out of Hong Kong, killing a large number of unescorted merchies}.
Keep a legitimate force to cover your rear areas.
Use the editor to place all planes at PH on training, put all KB Kates on port attack {increases damge to USN}
Eidt Pennsylvania, Tennesee and Maryland to arrive 12-08-41 with 30-40 sys dam and add 90 flot damage to Oklahoma, Arizona {Increases damage to USN and virtually guarratees two BBs sunk.
Replay first turn till at least two BBs are sunk at PH.

All I can think of at the moment.

(in reply to Lomri)
Post #: 2
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/7/2009 12:34:43 AM   
R8J


Posts: 238
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: Shelby County, Tennessee
Status: offline 		After several games that last until around Aug 42 I came up with this.

Do not bomb airfields. This allows the AI to keep some of it's bite.

Three day turns. No replaying turns even if the KB surprises you and sinks 4 CVs or destroys a troop convoy with the 42 ID. Don’t worry you get lots and lots of new stuff.

Pick a minimum moral level for air groups. Any unit with a morale less than that number has to rest until passes said number. I think at first I picked 50, but the air group could not go back into action until 70 was reached. I’m in early 45 now and am using 80 for my benchmark.

The max CAP level for any air group is 50%.

Leave at least one fighter unit at all major cities…LA, San Fran, Diego, Melbourne, Delhi, et cetera.

The max number of ac at a base is size times 50.

Allied bomber air groups are set to naval attack and port/airfield attack. From what I seen this gives the Japanese AI a slight advantage….not sure but it seems so.

Any ship with system damage of 20 or more is sent to the yards immediately. It can not return to combat until it’s in the “green”.

No convoy can sail with out escorts. I came up with a 1:5 ratio. One escort for 5 transports.

No LCU may make an amphib attack until it reaches 100 pp for its target…the same for airborne.

Units can only be sent into combat with disruption and fatigue are 0/5…or 5/0, I can not remember. This gets a little foggy when pushing the enemy at of a hex…to move forward or not. I usually do not move units with values greater than 50.

(in reply to Lomri)
Post #: 3
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/7/2009 1:08:11 AM   
Pistachio

 

Posts: 202
Joined: 12/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: R8J

...Do not bomb airfields. This allows the AI to keep some of it's bite.
...


Good thread - can somebody elaborate on the above? This is news to me; I would think bombing airfields would be a historically accurate move to make. A while back there was some denouncing of strategic bombing until you can hit Japanese "home" territory. So what exactly does one do with bombers?

(in reply to R8J)
Post #: 4
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/7/2009 8:17:35 PM   
R8J


Posts: 238
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: Shelby County, Tennessee
Status: offline 		It is historical to eliminate the Japanese air force on the ground. But doing so against the Japanese AI is too easy. By August 42, actually earlier than that, you can more or less eliminate the Japanese Air Force (Army and Navy) as a threat.
 
I’m at a point now where I can hit Japan with B-29s. I have decided not to use the bomber against strategic targets. Instead I am using on port attack and ground units.
 
Trying to give the AI a fighting chance.....

(in reply to Pistachio)
Post #: 5
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/7/2009 9:08:02 PM   
Pistachio

 

Posts: 202
Joined: 12/15/2008
Status: offline 		Ah, ok, I see what you mean - should've got it the first time.

Another 'don't break it:' I've decided I will never fall back to Manila again; currently it is mid-June of 1943 and I STILL have Manila, even though they ran out of supplies (besides what the city generates each turn) months ago. I've actually thought about ordering everybody on shock attack just to speed up its capture, but haven't done it yet because I'm afraid that by some random stroke they might actually succeed and take back Clark Field. That's the eventual goal, of course, but not while I'm still on the other side of Truk.

Thanks!

(in reply to R8J)
Post #: 6
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/7/2009 11:32:36 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 4763
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Good thread. I have several of my own house rules too. Of them, this is one of the most important:

quote:

No replaying turns even if the KB surprises you and sinks 4 CVs


People forget that humans have one huge advantage over any AI -- we can choose a do-over by reloading an earlier saved game. The AI can't. I never reload saved games against the AI. Other rules:

I play on Very Hard.

I don't deviate wildly from the historical war. That means I don't, for example, invade Hawaii as Japan, and I don't start taking the Kuriles in 1942 when I play as the Allies.

I give my subs R&R when they return to port.

I make my bombardment TFs use a major base to refuel and rearm. Ditto with carriers.

No unescorted convoys, ever.

All units attacking amphibiously must prep significantly for the target, though I don't enforce a 100-prep rule against myself. (Maybe I should!)

I keep some sort of garrison in many places, even when I know the AI won't attack, because that's what would've been done in RL. As Japan, for example, I garrison Manila after I take Luzon. (AE will require us to keep a division there, I understand.)

I repair ships with damage over 10-15.

I play one-day turns, but maybe I should try 3-day turns.

Occasionally the AI does something foolish with a surface TF or carrier TF. E.g., it sails an unescorted ship right up to my land-based air. Sometimes I'll pretend I didn't notice and stand down my bombers for a turn or two. On the other hand, if the AI's TF is actually achieving something, then I feel free to let loose.

I don't bomb "dot" bases or gain XP by one-hex supply transport missions, but I do permit myself target practice against units or bases that are plausible targets. E.g., I'll repeatedly bomb ground units in China.

In general, I roleplay. I also post an AAR of my games somewhere, to foster this roleplaying. Right now I'm posting my current AAR in another forum, but I post my PBEM AARs here -- just haven't done a PBEM in a year or so.

I don't look at sigint. As much because I'm lazy as anything else, but if it helps the AI, cool.

My ASW TFs have no more than 5 ships in them.


< Message edited by Grotius -- 2/7/2009 11:34:06 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/8/2009 4:11:17 PM   
Lomri

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 2/6/2009
Status: offline
Thanks for the replies!

It is sometimes hard to hold back when the AI does stupid things, I admire anyones restraint when they sail un-escorted ships into your bomber range! 

I'm having the same issue with Manila, holding it in July 42.  Problem is, on the role playing side, it seems hard to 'let go' and try to let them surrender.  Instead I find myself rebasing 4e bombers with range in Wachow China and drop them supplies.  It is probably devastating to the Japanese to have so many units locked up in PI, and no player would allow for it. 

I think garrisoning troops in bases you know the AI won't attack is one of the easy ways to slow down the Allied advance (if playing the Allies that is). 

Does anyone have any experience with doing a specific un-historical move and totally screwing up the AI brains?  Like holding a base the script expects to take and watching all offensive manuevers in that theatre die?  I'm a bit worried that having fought back the Japanese invasion of Timor (on 1 of 3 bases) that the AI won't bother coming back for a second try. 

And of course, really looking forward to AE!  I have been avidly watching any threads about improved AI behavior in AE.

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 8
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/8/2009 11:12:10 PM   
R8J


Posts: 238
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: Shelby County, Tennessee
Status: offline 		"Does anyone have any experience with doing a specific un-historical move and totally screwing up the AI brains?  Like holding a base the script expects to take and watching all offensive manuevers in that theatre die?  I'm a bit worried that having fought back the Japanese invasion of Timor (on 1 of 3 bases) that the AI won't bother coming back for a second try."

Yes.

Sometimes I have seen the original attempt to take Wake fail (bad die rolls for AI). It never attempts a second try. I've seen similiar things in SEA and DEI.

(in reply to Lomri)
Post #: 9
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/8/2009 11:36:25 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		In my very first game, without Allied Sub Doctrine {it wasn't in the game yet}, I was worried that the AI had lost too many AKs from all the american sub successes in 42. 
Also in my first game, I noted KB coming into the Indian Ocean and moved a lot of planes to Rangoon.  Set them ALL on naval attack with low altitude {I think it was 100'}.  Sunk four carriers.  Lost a lot of planes, but the allies have planes to loose, and the Japanese do not have carriers to loose.
Jumping to defend or occupy wonderful bases {Lunga, Rabaul, etc} before making sure all the rear area bases are secured can throw a monkey wrench into the AI.

(in reply to R8J)
Post #: 10
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/9/2009 10:44:58 AM   
Bogo Mil

 

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline 		The AI always tries to resupply bases - even if they are completely cut off. Thus, you should not isolate bases for a long time. Clean out your backyard regularily.

You can give the AI a VERY strong PH attack for a headstart: Start the game in hot seat mode, and order all Kates on the KB to naval attack. For the Americans, put all ships in PH into a few large escort TFs and dock them in PH. The Kates will attack with torpedoes only and inflict massive damage to the fleet.

In Manila, you can load supplies on the AKs and send them away. This makes the conquest a bit easier for the AI.

It seems the AI doesn't understand PTs at all. It keeps it's own PTs in port, and doesn't have a smart reaction to enemy PTs. So I don't use them, too.

_____________________________

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 11
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/9/2009 12:43:15 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 7117
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: online 		In vanilla WITP it is possible for the Allies to go straight to the islands north of Japan, capture them, and work their way down in 1942-'43..The AI will not send forces north to recapture anything and will not send ships to intercept your supply transports.
I have loaded hundreds of bombers up there and pounded the industrial cities of mainland Japan by 1943..

THAT is "gamey".

This will not be possible in AE (if I have been reading correctly), for one thing, the Japanese have many more coastal patrol type ships which will warn of an approaching force.

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Post #: 12
RE: How not to break the AI? - 2/9/2009 8:20:22 PM   
Pistachio

 

Posts: 202
Joined: 12/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: R8J
...
Sometimes I have seen the original attempt to take Wake fail (bad die rolls for AI). It never attempts a second try. I've seen similiar things in SEA and DEI.


Same here - but I think the only times I've seen it are when I've had some kind of "conflict" in the game setup menu, like if you have "historical first turn" on and something else off. Sorry that's fuzzy but I don't have the game menu right in front of me at the moment.

(in reply to R8J)
Post #: 13
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