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Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects on tactical play (are carriers more vulnerble?)

 
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Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects on ... - 1/28/2009 9:25:10 PM   
sanderz

 

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"Task Force Movement is now handled on a hex by hex basis, with mid-ocean intercepts now possible! "

Ok, so i live in a fantasy world where my BB/CA fleets intercepts a carrier fleet and wreaks havoc :)

In witp any intercept seems unlikely - but in AE will this new rule affecr how you use your carrier fleets (or indeed your tactics against them?)

Or does the 'carrier react range' thingy mean they automatically avoid combat?

thanks

sanderz

PS
i suppose this also makes sub intercepts a lot more likely

Post #: 1
RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/28/2009 9:39:56 PM   
Don Bowen


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Carrier react is not directly involved in surface combat.

TFs may well bump into UNDETECTED enemy TFs at sea. TFs will retreat from stronger DETECTED TFs at sea. All on a hex by hex basis. Warning, some of the playtesters hate the retreat rule. Why did my TF decide to retreat instead of going where I told it to??

If a carrier TF (or any other TF with ships that would rather not get involved in surface combat) runs into an enemy TF, the actions depend on the size, strength and speed of the two TFs. A faster TF might sprint out of harms way. If slower, but larger, some of the combat ships will screen the softies while the rest engage the enemy.

Without going into detail, each of the two (or more) TFs calculate a desire-to-fight and a chance-of-contact. If both don't want to fight they could exchange a few shots and haul out. If one wants to fight and the other doesn't, speed is the determining factor.


(in reply to sanderz)
Post #: 2
RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/28/2009 10:08:17 PM   
jrcar

 

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In a recent PBEM game I had the following occur to me as Japanese. I was patroling in a sea hex, he was coming in to protect Little Andaman is against my SCTF... so it is a mid turn intercept.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Little Andaman at 44,60, Range 15,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga
CV Akagi, Shell hits 1
CVL Ryujo, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CVL Shoho, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CVL Zuiho, Shell hits 5, on fire
CS Chitose
CA Tone, Shell hits 2
CL Naka, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Natsushio, Shell hits 2
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Minegumo
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
CL Birmingham, Shell hits 3
CLAA Capetown, Shell hits 1
DD Arunta, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Isaac Sweers, Shell hits 2, heavy fires
DD Van Galen
DD Stronghold, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Electra, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Encounter
DD Express, Shell hits 7, heavy fires
DD Fortune
DD Griffin, Shell hits 2, on fire



Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 14% moonlight: 1,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 30,000 yards
Range closes to 25,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 15,000 yards...
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 15,000 yards
CL Birmingham fires at CL Naka at 15,000 yards
DD Fortune fires at CL Naka at 15,000 yards
CL Birmingham fires at CVL Ryujo at 15,000 yards
DD Electra fires at DD Natsushio at 15,000 yards
DD Stronghold fires at DD Natsushio at 15,000 yards
DD Van Galen fires at DD Natsushio at 15,000 yards
DD Arunta fires at DD Natsugumo at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages CV Akagi at 11,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CVL Zuiho at 11,000 yards
DD Stronghold engages CVL Shoho at 11,000 yards
DD Fortune engages CVL Ryujo at 11,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Encounter at 11,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Stronghold at 11,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages DD Minegumo at 11,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Arunta at 11,000 yards
DD Fortune engages DD Amatsukaze at 11,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Stronghold at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
DD Fortune engages CV Akagi at 7,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CVL Zuiho at 7,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CVL Shoho at 7,000 yards
DD Express engages CVL Ryujo at 7,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages CA Tone at 7,000 yards
DD Electra engages CL Naka at 7,000 yards
DD Asagumo engages DD Electra at 7,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Isaac Sweers at 7,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Encounter at 7,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Fortune at 7,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages CV Akagi at 7,000 yards
CLAA Capetown engages CL Naka at 7,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Griffin at 7,000 yards
DD Fortune engages CVL Shoho at 7,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Asagumo at 7,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages CA Tone at 7,000 yards
DD Electra sunk by DD Amatsukaze at 7,000 yards
DD Stronghold engages CS Chitose at 7,000 yards
DD Asagumo engages DD Griffin at 7,000 yards
DD Asagumo engages DD Arunta at 7,000 yards
DD Griffin engages DD Amatsukaze at 7,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Express at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages CL Naka at 11,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CVL Zuiho at 11,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages CVL Shoho at 11,000 yards
DD Express engages CVL Ryujo at 11,000 yards
DD Encounter engages CA Tone at 11,000 yards
CL Naka engages CL Birmingham at 11,000 yards
DD Van Galen engages CS Chitose at 11,000 yards
DD Asagumo engages DD Express at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Arunta at 11,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Express at 11,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Isaac Sweers at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 14,000 yards
CL Naka engages CLAA Capetown at 14,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CVL Zuiho at 14,000 yards
DD Express engages CVL Shoho at 14,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Express at 14,000 yards
CLAA Capetown engages CA Tone at 14,000 yards
DD Stronghold engages CL Naka at 14,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Van Galen at 14,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages DD Asagumo at 14,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Arunta at 14,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Amatsukaze at 14,000 yards
CV Akagi screened from combat
DD Arunta sunk by CV Kaga at 14,000 yards
DD Express engages CVL Zuiho at 14,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CVL Shoho at 14,000 yards
DD Express engages CA Tone at 14,000 yards
CLAA Capetown engages CL Naka at 14,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Van Galen at 14,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Express at 14,000 yards
DD Express engages DD Natsushio at 14,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
CA Tone engages CL Birmingham at 19,000 yards
DD Griffin engages CV Kaga at 19,000 yards
DD Natsushio engages DD Express at 19,000 yards
DD Amatsukaze engages DD Encounter at 19,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Stronghold at 19,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages DD Amatsukaze at 19,000 yards
Range increases to 24,000 yards
CV Akagi , CV Kaga , CVL Zuiho ,
CVL Shoho screened from combat
- escorted by DD Minegumo , DD Natsugumo
CL Birmingham engages CL Naka at 24,000 yards
CA Tone engages DD Griffin at 24,000 yards
CL Birmingham engages DD Asagumo at 24,000 yards
DD Isaac Sweers engages CV Akagi at 24,000 yards
Task forces break off...



I have experianced numerous mid ocean intercepts, it is fantastic :)

Actually in looking into other features I'd forgotten how cool this actually is. There are so many great changes in AE you forget them sometimes.

Cheers

Rob




(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 3
RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/28/2009 10:08:36 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

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Are the chances of surface TF to intercept greater if it is launching floatplanes for naval search?

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/28/2009 11:08:38 PM   
treespider


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The waypoints make it easier to intercept as well... especially if you anticipate the base a TF is moving to. I was able to intercept the Legaspi Invasion TF with Boise as they returned to base making use of waypoints. I calculated the path the Leg TF would take back to port and plotted the Boise TF to move back up this path with waypoints. Bammo mid ocean intercept.   As Don mentioned the CS's Chitose and Mizuho screened the transports while the transports ran away. Scratch two seaplane carriers.

Of course Boise gets killed next turn returning to base after it encountered a BB off the coast of Mindanao.

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/28/2009 11:22:25 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

Are the chances of surface TF to intercept greater if it is launching floatplanes for naval search?


TFs intercept in one of two circumstance:
1. Reacting to DETECTED enemy TF
2. Stumbling into each other.

Anything that increases the detection level of the enemy's TFs increases your chances of either intercepting or retreating (what ever is best for you).

If you don't detect the enemy and he detects you - bye bye.



(in reply to CV Zuikaku)
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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 3:39:59 PM   
sanderz

 

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thanks for the info on how it works guys - this looks really good

i am very new to this game myself - still in mid 42 in my first game vs the AI - am interested if you find it actually changes tactical decisions on how you use your carrier fleets - do you have to be more cautious, or use a different TF mix?

thanks

sanderz

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 7
RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 4:38:36 PM   
Grotius


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So it sounds like float planes will become more important for surface groups? In vanilla WITP, I often don't bother to include a CS in surface groups (especially not Chitose). Among other things, Japan's CS's often have very low crew XP.

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 5:04:56 PM   
jwilkerson


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BTW in case you all get the idea that all of your CV TF are going to be routinely intercepted and destroyed every even numbered turn in AE - no - that is not going to happen. So far, in all of our play testing, that one result posted above - is the ONLY time - we've seen carriers actually damaged in a surface intercept. Yes they have been intercepted a few other times - very rarely - but usually they successfully disengage immediately without ever suffering damage. In fact, until we saw the above result, we did not know if we would ever actually see carriers actually hit in a surface engagement, but now we know that it is a possible if extremely rare possibility.

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 5:57:53 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

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THX, I just intended to ask that

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 6:35:55 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

BTW in case you all get the idea that all of your CV TF are going to be routinely intercepted and destroyed every even numbered turn in AE - no - that is not going to happen. So far, in all of our play testing, that one result posted above - is the ONLY time - we've seen carriers actually damaged in a surface intercept. Yes they have been intercepted a few other times - very rarely - but usually they successfully disengage immediately without ever suffering damage. In fact, until we saw the above result, we did not know if we would ever actually see carriers actually hit in a surface engagement, but now we know that it is a possible if extremely rare possibility.



Since the one real determining factor in this example is speed, it was not a good idea to put some slower Jap CVL's with the CV's. This likely allowedthe intercept.

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 7:12:35 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Since the one real determining factor in this example is speed, it was not a good idea to put some slower Jap CVL's with the CV's. This likely allowedthe intercept.

Just fyi, Bob, it used to be that just about everybody had a cruise speed of 15, back in WiTP-I. In AE, things are different. My evil, devious, mind gives slower top speed capital ships a slower cruise speed to match. Not only 'full' speed, but also 'cruise' and 'mission' speed will depend on the slowest puke in the pack. So .. early war BBs want to play with the big boys? .. oops. Hiyo, Junyo want to play 'fleet' carrier? .. oops. And on it goes.

Just a fly in the oitment, Hans.

Ciao. John

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 7:32:50 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I had a surface TF made up of USS North Carolina and some escorts catch Hiyo in the Coral Sea in midocean that way.  We'd traded airstrikes between carrier TF's, and I split NC and escorts off of the CVTF and sent them off at high speed down the path the IJN TF had taken.  Hiyo had been damaged so she'd been separated from the main TF, and my ships caught up to her.

Other than some RN cruisers intercepting and sinking an IJN CA heading for Rangoon, I've not managed to catch anything in midocean hexes since then.

(in reply to JWE)
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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 9:40:52 PM   
jwilkerson


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In stock mid-Ocean intercepts are quite possible - and I've done hundreds of them - BUT - the intercepts can only happen at the end of each of the movement phases. So - in stock - to do a mid-Ocean intercept you have to correctly guess which hex the TF will be in at the end of the phase (in which you wish to intercept) and then place your intercepting TF in that hex at the end of the phase. For slowly moving MS convoys this is fairly easy - for warship TFs - in stock it is pretty tough. In AE - the stock - end of phase only - process would make it much harder - because there are more hexes - and now ships travel about 50% more hexes per phase than they do in stock. So for that and other reasons we (uh Don) created a whole new movement and intercept system that checks for intercepts hex by hex. And based on reaction setting - this can even generate intercepts for TFs in an adjacent hex as well. If you steam around the area where the enemy is steaming around - you will usually find them eventually - though if you were trying to duck in - find something at might - and get away before dawn - good luck - that is a tough job - mid-Ocean.

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 9:47:26 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

In stock mid-Ocean intercepts are quite possible - and I've done hundreds of them - BUT - the intercepts can only happen at the end of each of the movement phases. So - in stock - to do a mid-Ocean intercept you have to correctly guess which hex the TF will be in at the end of the phase (in which you wish to intercept) and then place your intercepting TF in that hex at the end of the phase. For slowly moving MS convoys this is fairly easy - for warship TFs - in stock it is pretty tough. In AE - the stock - end of phase only - process would make it much harder - because there are more hexes - and now ships travel about 50% more hexes per phase than they do in stock. So for that and other reasons we (uh Don) created a whole new movement and intercept system that checks for intercepts hex by hex. And based on reaction setting - this can even generate intercepts for TFs in an adjacent hex as well. If you steam around the area where the enemy is steaming around - you will usually find them eventually - though if you were trying to duck in - find something at might - and get away before dawn - good luck - that is a tough job - mid-Ocean.


Fantastic stuff!!!

Thanks guys!!!


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/29/2009 10:03:46 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

Just fyi, Bob, it used to be that just about everybody had a cruise speed of 15, back in WiTP-I. In AE, things are different. My evil, devious, mind gives slower top speed capital ships a slower cruise speed to match. Not only 'full' speed, but also 'cruise' and 'mission' speed will depend on the slowest puke in the pack. So .. early war BBs want to play with the big boys? .. oops. Hiyo, Junyo want to play 'fleet' carrier? .. oops. And on it goes.


I hope that is not hardcoded and can be managed by editor. In my editing i am trying to calculate/finding cruising SpeedVsRanges and choosing slower cruise speeds for those ships that usually will end escorting Merchants like older DD's.
There is another issue how much older ships loose speed with age. In my research it can go from a 2kt for heavy units to 5 or 6kt for lighter units.

Technically there is another issue that is not managed i guess: Escorts of Fleet TF's, in Japan case only CV's since BB's are slow and in America CV and BB's w/ Iowa Class need necessarely to have several knots more speed to get back to main body when they are diverted from the main body for example to check submarines.

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/30/2009 12:30:18 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Since the one real determining factor in this example is speed, it was not a good idea to put some slower Jap CVL's with the CV's. This likely allowedthe intercept.

Just fyi, Bob, it used to be that just about everybody had a cruise speed of 15, back in WiTP-I. In AE, things are different. My evil, devious, mind gives slower top speed capital ships a slower cruise speed to match. Not only 'full' speed, but also 'cruise' and 'mission' speed will depend on the slowest puke in the pack. So .. early war BBs want to play with the big boys? .. oops. Hiyo, Junyo want to play 'fleet' carrier? .. oops. And on it goes.

Just a fly in the oitment, Hans.

Ciao. John



Oh, yeah....this is gonna be good.

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/30/2009 4:37:35 PM   
W T Door

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

Just fyi, Bob, it used to be that just about everybody had a cruise speed of 15, back in WiTP-I. In AE, things are different. My evil, devious, mind gives slower top speed capital ships a slower cruise speed to match. Not only 'full' speed, but also 'cruise' and 'mission' speed will depend on the slowest puke in the pack. So .. early war BBs want to play with the big boys? .. oops. Hiyo, Junyo want to play 'fleet' carrier? .. oops. And on it goes.


I hope that is not hardcoded and can be managed by editor. In my editing i am trying to calculate/finding cruising SpeedVsRanges and choosing slower cruise speeds for those ships that usually will end escorting Merchants like older DD's.
There is another issue how much older ships loose speed with age. In my research it can go from a 2kt for heavy units to 5 or 6kt for lighter units.

Technically there is another issue that is not managed i guess: Escorts of Fleet TF's, in Japan case only CV's since BB's are slow and in America CV and BB's w/ Iowa Class need necessarely to have several knots more speed to get back to main body when they are diverted from the main body for example to check submarines.



Lots of factors in play there, one of which is how long it's been since the vessel has a had a proper yard avaialbility, where the yard was (this is a parts thing, we ran into it when I was forward deployed), the maintenance culture of the navy in question and so forth. The kind of engines will enter into it a lot, as well, reciprocating steam will tend to wear out quicker than turbines or diesels, diesels will be easier to maintain without either a huge maintenance support structure (US fleet train) or access to one's own shipyards (vice captured yards under own side's control). I haven't messed with the editor, so I'm not conversant with the details of how the vessels are modeled, but Harpoon II provides each system as a device that is a subsystem of the overall device (ship) so it would be possible to have different rates of deterioration and recovery depending on these factors. Then again this would open a whole new can of worms reflecting how resource availability, condition of factories and so forth would be reflected in the quality of repair parts and so forth.

Cruising speed does vary a great deal, especially with questions revolving around most economical cruise speed (fastest speed to cover a given distance in the least amount of time) which is influenced by length of wetted waterline (this influences hump speed, which is a reflection of hydrodymaic drag and interaction with waves). Most navies have established criteria for fleet cruising speed, which accounts for these factors as well as the need for escorts to leave the main body to deal with threats or conduct searches and then return.

(in reply to Dili)
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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 1/31/2009 11:14:53 PM   
Luskan

 

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Does the commanding admiral's aggression (or carefulness) affect the "wanting" to intercept?

I only say this because 99% of the allied surface combat admirals aren't aggressive and given a choice to intercept . . . ;)

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 2/1/2009 12:03:45 AM   
2ndACR


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Glad to see you back Luskan.......missed seeing you around. Waiting on the next Banna affair AAR.

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 2/1/2009 12:50:41 AM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luskan

Does the commanding admiral's aggression (or carefulness) affect the "wanting" to intercept?

I only say this because 99% of the allied surface combat admirals aren't aggressive and given a choice to intercept . . . ;)


Yes.

(in reply to Luskan)
Post #: 21
RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 2/1/2009 11:34:14 AM   
Luskan

 

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Thanks 2nd - I've been in lurk mode for a while.

I may try and write up an AAR about my current battle at some point (but is 1944 and my memory is a bit biased).

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 2/1/2009 2:51:20 PM   
witpqs


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Bias is what good AAR's are all about...

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RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 2/1/2009 8:56:48 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

The waypoints make it easier to intercept as well... especially if you anticipate the base a TF is moving to. I was able to intercept the Legaspi Invasion TF with Boise as they returned to base making use of waypoints. I calculated the path the Leg TF would take back to port and plotted the Boise TF to move back up this path with waypoints. Bammo mid ocean intercept.   As Don mentioned the CS's Chitose and Mizuho screened the transports while the transports ran away. Scratch two seaplane carriers.

Of course Boise gets killed next turn returning to base after it encountered a BB off the coast of Mindanao.


I think you came out ahead.

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(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 24
RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 2/1/2009 8:59:21 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanderz

thanks for the info on how it works guys - this looks really good

i am very new to this game myself - still in mid 42 in my first game vs the AI - am interested if you find it actually changes tactical decisions on how you use your carrier fleets - do you have to be more cautious, or use a different TF mix?

thanks

sanderz


IRL American CV admirals were very nervous about gunship intercept, so it should affect tactical decisions.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to sanderz)
Post #: 25
RE: Ship intercepts on a hex by hex basis - amy effects... - 2/1/2009 9:03:54 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6057
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Since the one real determining factor in this example is speed, it was not a good idea to put some slower Jap CVL's with the CV's. This likely allowedthe intercept.

Just fyi, Bob, it used to be that just about everybody had a cruise speed of 15, back in WiTP-I. In AE, things are different. My evil, devious, mind gives slower top speed capital ships a slower cruise speed to match. Not only 'full' speed, but also 'cruise' and 'mission' speed will depend on the slowest puke in the pack. So .. early war BBs want to play with the big boys? .. oops. Hiyo, Junyo want to play 'fleet' carrier? .. oops. And on it goes.

Just a fly in the oitment, Hans.

Ciao. John


The cruise speed should be the documented values when known. Also, will you be modelling CV ops? They had to pick up their skirts and turn into the wind to allow flight deck operations to take place. The BBs might plod along at 15 knots, but CVTFs had to make more steam to maintain the same advance rates.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 26
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