Matrix Games Forums

A look through the keyhole #10!The Age of Shadows on Distant Worlds starts now!Paypal System UpdateDistant Worlds: Shadows Final Teaser!Distant Worlds: Legends gets Updated!Recruiting Testers for Commander: the Great War on Mac!Armageddon invasion starts in 2014Command Rommels Panzers in Battle Academy!Servers UpdateThe Deal goes Fourth!		 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Tree Improvement Project

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Panzer Command: Kharkov >> Maps, Models and Mods >> RE: Tree Improvement Project Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/20/2009 7:38:03 AM   
Stridor


Posts: 5074
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		Ben this is what I did to clean up the tree image without black borders

1. Load you tree in photoshop.
2. Load the tree alpha in photoshop.

Note it is not a good idea to work with lossy formats when working with textures / alpha masks (ie jpg is a no no)

Do a select all on the pixels of the alpha mask image. And the do a copy.

Now select the main tree image. Go into the channels tab and click create new layer, this will be called alpha1.

With alpha 1 selected paste the alpha mask you copied earlier. Make sure that RBG channel is selected. You will notice the background (transparency) will go red.

Now as I have 64bit PS4 and the nvidia tools don't work with 64bit, I need to do this intermediate step (if you have 32bit PS you can just save the dds now).

So I need to ... save the file as a tif with alpha transparency.

Load it up in Paint.Net (as it has excellent dds tools).

Save the tif in Paint.Net as a dds DXT-1.

There you go a nice clean texture. Because you are using a 1 bit alpha it will always be blocky around the edges! However if you want the best quality and are prepared for a tree with twice the memory size you can always save it as a DXT3 file. This will fix all your issues as the alpha blends but at a cost in memory. The choice is yours.

Here is the example textures I was talking about.

Checkout the difference between DXT3 and DXT1

Regards

S.


Attachment (1)

(in reply to Mraah)
Post #: 91
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/20/2009 12:34:28 PM   
Marc von Martial

 

Posts: 10890
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

These are not "photographic". The problem that I had with a few of the stock textures were that they were actually photographs. These had issues because they carry all the problems that the original photographs had- made at different times of day in different light, odd highlights etc. These should have a better tonal quality that should match the colors that we use to make the maps.


Hey, you can even out such oddities via these methods in Photoshop. I use this process a lot when generating tiling textures.

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/polevoy_george/texture_tiling.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010523/hajba_pfv.htm




_____________________________

Marc von Martial
Director of Art & Production


(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 92
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/20/2009 3:34:28 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 31472
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stridor
Checkout the difference between DXT3 and DXT1


Those look great, I have to say. Are these the 150 poly trees?


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development and Business Relations


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Stridor)
Post #: 93
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/20/2009 3:35:58 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 31472
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark
Here they be. There are place-holders for the MM included.
Thanks, as always.


They really look good, I think once you get that border issue resolved, this will be a great improvement.

Have you had much luck with the LODs yet? I think those will really make a huge performance difference for you if you include them.


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development and Business Relations


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 94
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/20/2009 5:01:20 PM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		Thanks all!

Stridor, I was adding an unnecessary step that was inane to do. Man, it helps to have you around!

Marc, that's funny, I had just been looking at the second link a few days ago. That's a good description of how to make a tiled texture.

Erik, these are basically the same models as PzC uses- two faces at "+" shaped angle from one another. I didn't use any extra faces (as the PzC models do) to simulate "branches" on these. It looks too chaotic to me.

So LODs from these- how do I make an even smaller model? I believe that the .DDS has multiple levels of detail built in- am I wrong?

I have all of the smalls left to do (completely separate textures), plus a few "specials" that will be proper 3D models.

< Message edited by benpark -- 2/20/2009 5:22:44 PM >

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 95
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/20/2009 5:54:59 PM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		Hades! Alpha set for "0" sure is ugly!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by benpark -- 2/20/2009 9:16:01 PM >

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 96
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/20/2009 10:18:04 PM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Ben this is what I did to clean up the tree image without black borders


You may still suffer around the edges if you do this when you look at downsampled textures/mipmaps.

A sampling area that is mostly opaque will result in a single solid pixel. If the underlying colour is green on a black background the texture may sample as darker than the high detail texture around the edges. If the texture is green on a white/sky background then the fringe will be excessively pale.

It would be better to use a neutral/averaged hue and tone as the background to the colour channels, with the high detail only over the opaque sections. This would avoid altering colour or tone inappropriately when viewing the low LOD trees.


< Message edited by Lieste -- 2/20/2009 10:19:35 PM >

(in reply to Stridor)
Post #: 97
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/20/2009 10:50:50 PM   
Stridor


Posts: 5074
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		Lietse,

Agree 100%

Ben,

Don't ever use alpha 0 for anything! Otherwise your trees are looking good.

Regards

S.

(in reply to Lieste)
Post #: 98
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/22/2009 4:44:00 AM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		The new tree models are adding quite a bit of additional cover, I think. There are a lot of trees on this map, so I'll have to test fewer.

This is the first game that I've had no enemy contact until turn 6. No shooting at all. I've just spotted some Soviet infantry and one SPG after I slowly moved through the forested area at the rear of the screen.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to Stridor)
Post #: 99
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/22/2009 5:42:54 AM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		These run fine for me, but I want to be sure there won't be slowdown for lower end systems. Since we can't billboard, can I still do the LOD models with only 1 face (as opposed to the two there are now)?


_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 100
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/22/2009 4:00:11 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10242
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

These run fine for me, but I want to be sure there won't be slowdown for lower end systems. Since we can't billboard, can I still do the LOD models with only 1 face (as opposed to the two there are now)?



I have a low end system if you want me to do some tests with your map.

The reduced visibility is much more realistic. The discussion I've seen here on how sight rays work where a tree trunk can't block LOS 100% didn't seem at all right. 6 turns to contact is still good. Most of my scenarios are set where you gain contact within the first 5 turns.

I come to a wargame to fight. 6 turns is very acceptable. Especially since most PC scenarios played vs the AI seem to take tremendously longer to play than their CM counterparts. Played H2H they seem to be much shorter.

Better trees and LOS will be a big step forward. So, while I can't help with the graphics, I can help with playtesting if you need it.

Good Hunting.

MR

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 101
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/22/2009 4:19:46 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 31472
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Ben,

That's looking great. If you send me the trees and the map you're using, I can take a look on three test systems of different power levels to see what performance is like and to see if the sighting system is still performing within expected parameters.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development and Business Relations


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 102
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/22/2009 5:33:30 PM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		This map is more dense than I would probably make it normally, so it's cover is going to be more extreme than normal. One plus with the new trees is that they are more WYSIWYG- I have tried very hard to make the model conform to the image you see.

Thanks for the offer to test them. I'm nearly there, but there are a few things to iron out. I'll PM you (and anyone else that would like to test them) as soon as they are ready.

Erik, I'll email you today.

< Message edited by benpark -- 2/22/2009 5:34:50 PM >

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 103
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/22/2009 5:51:11 PM   
Mraah

 

Posts: 1084
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		Ben,

The trees look very,very good.

If you haven't had the opportunity to look, the original Pck models had polygon counts ranging from 16-32 ... just to give you an idea.

Also, you might want to make half size models of your trees to represent the saplings. Are you planning on making winter versions of your trees?

And, finally ... A summer scene should contain more underbrush compared to a winter scene. I like your current brush models but I'm thinking that the color should be more like your tree's ... It seems your brush textures seem a bit dark to me.

Anyway, to help degrade LOS through a summer wooded area it may help to have low polygon underbrush.

Thanks for your work!

Rob

< Message edited by Mraah -- 2/22/2009 5:55:46 PM >

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 104
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/22/2009 5:54:59 PM   
Mraah

 

Posts: 1084
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I can take a look on three test systems of different power levels to see what performance is like and to see if the sighting system is still performing within expected parameters.



Erik,

When you get a chance ... After your testing, could you let Rick know what the recommended parameters are ... I'm thinking it would be nice to have him include that in his manual so players can have a rough gauge for an expected FPS rate under a specific cpu system.

Thanks,

Rob

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 105
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/22/2009 7:41:18 PM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		Rob, all trees are scaled in 3 sizes- small, medium and large trees.

The brush can be redone at some point. There are a few things I've added that make for small, brush-like objects (the yew tree for example). I'm going to need a break to deal with "real" work for a while now, though. Sorry, no winter trees at this point.

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to Mraah)
Post #: 106
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/23/2009 5:24:39 AM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		I just need to complete the fall trees and then do the LODs. I think I have the process for doing the LODs figured out, so hopefully that shouldn't be too painful.

In the meantime, I included linden trees for maps in Berlin-this is the southern part of Templehof airport and surrounding area. I realize that most trees should be bare/burned for April/May, but it's a test.

This map has a lot of models on it, but it's running fine for me. It should be tested on slower rigs, though. Erik, this will be in the set I send you (still working on t so maybe an extra day or two...).




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by benpark -- 2/23/2009 2:56:05 PM >

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 107
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/23/2009 3:24:14 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 31472
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Looks great, thank you! We should definitely test it with the LODs if possible. Ben, I really appreciate the work you're doing on this. We'll all see a big improvement in the look of the maps as a result.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development and Business Relations


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 108
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/26/2009 6:30:51 PM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		I'm including some winter/dead trees. This has held it up for another day or two.

I'm up to over 50 different tree variations now, so this is going to be a lot of new stuff to populate your maps with.

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 109
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/27/2009 4:21:06 AM   
RyanCrierie


Posts: 1067
Joined: 10/14/2005
Status: offline 		AWESOME.

_____________________________

My Website with cool bits and pieces!

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 110
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/27/2009 4:47:11 AM   
Rick

 

Posts: 11600
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

I'm including some winter/dead trees. This has held it up for another day or two.

I'm up to over 50 different tree variations now, so this is going to be a lot of new stuff to populate your maps with.


Ben,

I'm looking foward to seeing this package!

Thanks!
Rick

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 111
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/27/2009 6:44:23 AM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		It's 99% done, and then to Erik. I had some snags with all of the models matching up with my inept data entry in my .xml files that slowed me down. If something needs to be automated, it's a wunder-waffen to auto write the data.

I may add a few new bush models, since I've already gone completely insane with this thing.

Autumn trees below. As you can see, some look more 3d than others, but that's the compromise to get many more as well as allowing those with more aged rigs to use with speed.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by benpark -- 2/27/2009 6:54:29 AM >

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to Rick)
Post #: 112
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 2/27/2009 3:33:34 PM   
Marc von Martial

 

Posts: 10890
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		Good job there

_____________________________

Marc von Martial
Director of Art & Production


(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 113
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 3/5/2009 9:17:51 AM   
Rick

 

Posts: 11600
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: online 		Ben,

You even put apples on the apple trees! I can see the orchards showing up now!
(my pic may be too dark to see - but they're there!

Thanks,
Rick





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 114
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 3/5/2009 10:11:18 AM   
spellir74

 

Posts: 1983
Joined: 6/15/2008
Status: offline 		That apple tree is good. It's the right leaves and branchs for apple too I believe: palmated rose like leaves.

Take your time Ben.

Take your brake, then do the important finishing of your project when you are refreshed. _But write notes before you put it all down!_ (This way you'll know what's what's when you return to your folders.)

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 115
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 3/6/2009 1:27:35 AM   
benpark


Posts: 3736
Joined: 8/12/2002
From: New Haven, CT
Status: offline 		Oh, it's done! I know better than to leave a mod half way done. I'd forget everything.

I sent it off to Erik. He's going to look at it to be sure it's up to spec. It will either be released through the patch (soon) or me.

VERY glad you like it! I hope others do too.



_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey


(in reply to spellir74)
Post #: 116
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 4/22/2009 6:49:11 PM   
Bil H


Posts: 1972
Joined: 4/24/2003
From: Richmond Virginia
Status: offline 		Ben, those trees look terrific. 

Oh yeah, it's nice to see someone using my NATO symbols in the game.

Bil

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 117
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 3/9/2012 2:01:10 PM   
joeyeti


Posts: 115
Joined: 2/28/2012
Status: offline 		Hi folks,

I know I am too late, but has this been incorporated into the game via a patch or a separate download?

(in reply to Bil H)
Post #: 118
RE: Tree Improvement Project - 3/9/2012 2:25:28 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12675
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		It's been so long that I don't remember. Since it states that Ben sent the files to Erik, I would assume that they are in an update.

PCO includes some true 3D trees.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to joeyeti)
Post #: 119
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Panzer Command: Kharkov >> Maps, Models and Mods >> RE: Tree Improvement Project Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.741