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RE: Just had to show this

 
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RE: Just had to show this - 1/24/2009 2:38:40 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

The next question would be, "How many, which of the squadrons were equipped with torps?"  As I recall, about half the bombers were carrying bombs, not torps (never see that in WitP!).  But that would help narrow your identification, if you knew which squadrons were carrying bombs.

-F-


From Wiki:

"At 1005, Tenedos reported she was being attacked by Japanese aircraft, about 140 miles southeast of Force Z. The attack was by nine Mitsubishi G3M 'Nell' twin-engined medium bombers from the Genzan Air Corps, 22nd Air Flotilla, based at Saigon, each armed with one 500 kg (1,100 lb) armor-piercing bomb. They mistook the destroyer for a battleship and wasted their ordnance with all bombs scoring no hits."

"At 1113, the fleet was attacked by three waves of Japanese planes, the first being 17 Nell high-level bombers from Bihoro Air Corps, armed with 500 kg (1,100 lb) bombs, as well as eight Nells with two 250 kg (550 lb) bombs. Beside eight near misses by 250 kg (550 lb) bombs,[32] they scored just one hit on the hangar deck area of the Repulse, which started a small fire. She was making 25 kt (46 km/h, 29 mph) again within minutes."

"Around 1140, the first of 16 Nell torpedo bombers (two squadrons from Genzan Air Corps) arrived and attacked, sending at least six torpedoes into Prince of Wales. The first wave of attackers delivered one catastrophic torpedo hit on her outer port propeller shaft..."

"Another high altitude attack by bombers aimed at the Repulse passed without damage. Then a second attack by eight torpedo bombers from the Mihoro Air Corps attacked Repulse from two directions, but she avoided all the torpedoes "brilliantly""

"The third and final attack by 26 Mitsubishi G4M 'Betty' torpedo bombers from the Kanoya Air Corps, a detachment from the 21st Air Flotilla also based near Saigon, struck from several directions. Repulse, which had dodged 19 torpedoes so far, was caught between two Japanese torpedo attacks and hit by two, possibly four of them, the first jamming her rudder."

This account seems to be innacurate, as it it turns out there were only 4 torpedo hits on POW as determined by exploring the wreck.

i rather doubt that the torpedoes had the shallow water adapters installed... as pointed out, they were designed for use by the PH strike force, and literally were not completed until the last moment.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 1/24/2009 2:41:39 PM >

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 31
RE: Just had to show this - 1/24/2009 4:58:34 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Probably the artist had seen a photograph of the torpedoes being used at Pearl Harbor and based his drawing on them in the mistaken belief that all the Japanese aerial torpedoes looked like that. 

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 32
RE: Just had to show this - 1/25/2009 3:49:40 AM   
m10bob


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This may be controversial, but I have a book which says the Japanese had 2 or 3 Betty units which were special trained as torpedo units.
They were the ones which attacked Force Z and later were the same planes encountered in the Solomons. Since they were used in such important areas, maybe this is why all the G4m's were interpreted as torpedo-bombers?

Perhaps this might be corrected in a mod by having them broken into 2 distinct planes, one a level bomber, the other a torpedo bomber?
I can furnish the names and deployment of those specialty units, but many of us know them already..

Interesting the mayhem caused by those 3 units with their torpedoes might have caused such a misrepresentation of the plane.
Kind of like thinking the B 29 only had one mission.

www.vectorsite.net/avbetty.html

www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/g4m.htm

Here is the OOB for the attack on Force Z..The Japanese planes with torps are the special units I was referring to.
I have a book which sez they scored 70% hits on stationary targets before the war with their torps, and they much inspired by the exploits and feats of the Brits at Taranto.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Force-Z.htm

< Message edited by m10bob -- 1/25/2009 4:22:47 AM >


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RE: Just had to show this - 1/25/2009 4:08:30 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

This may be controversial, but I have a book which says the Japanese had 2 or 3 Betty units which were special trained as torpedo units.
They were the ones which attacked Force Z and later were the same planes encountered in the Solomons. Since they were used in such important areas, maybe this is why all the G4m's were interpreted as torpedo-bombers?

Perhaps this might be corrected in a mod by having them broken into 2 distinct planes, one a level bomber, the other a torpedo bomber?
I can furnish the names and deployment of those specialty units, but many of us know them already..

Interesting the mayhem caused by those 3 units with their torpedoes might have caused such a misrepresentation of the plane.
Kind of like thinking the B 29 only had one mission.

www.vectorsite.net/avbetty.html

Yes, relatively few Betty/Nell units could deliver torpedo attacks - and they required specialized report unit... this has been explored and people have tried mods that had different types of Bettys and Nells: those that could make torpedo attacks, and those that couldn't.

Unfortunately, something seems to be hard wired, and they couldn't stop the "bomb" Bettys/Nells from delivering torpedo attacks.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 34
RE: Just had to show this - 1/25/2009 8:07:20 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

This may be controversial, but I have a book which says the Japanese had 2 or 3 Betty units which were special trained as torpedo units.
They were the ones which attacked Force Z and later were the same planes encountered in the Solomons. Since they were used in such important areas, maybe this is why all the G4m's were interpreted as torpedo-bombers?

Perhaps this might be corrected in a mod by having them broken into 2 distinct planes, one a level bomber, the other a torpedo bomber?
I can furnish the names and deployment of those specialty units, but many of us know them already..

Interesting the mayhem caused by those 3 units with their torpedoes might have caused such a misrepresentation of the plane.
Kind of like thinking the B 29 only had one mission.

www.vectorsite.net/avbetty.html

Yes, relatively few Betty/Nell units could deliver torpedo attacks - and they required specialized report unit... this has been explored and people have tried mods that had different types of Bettys and Nells: those that could make torpedo attacks, and those that couldn't.

Unfortunately, something seems to be hard wired, and they couldn't stop the "bomb" Bettys/Nells from delivering torpedo attacks.


Those aircraft were designed to deliver torpedo attacks as part of the strategy for operation against the American advance across the Pacific. Torpedoes were expensive and finicky, so the real constraints were ground facilities and availability, not aircrew/aircraft capability.

BTW, the Japanese only made 150 of the 800 kg bombs before they wore out the machine tools used to make them from 16" AP shells.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 35
RE: Just had to show this - 1/25/2009 12:56:09 PM   
rtrapasso


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Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

Those aircraft were designed to deliver torpedo attacks as part of the strategy for operation against the American advance across the Pacific. Torpedoes were expensive and finicky, so the real constraints were ground facilities and availability, not aircrew/aircraft capability.


Maybe i should have stated it as: "Yes, relatively few Betty/Nell units could deliver torpedo attacks BECAUSE they required specialized report unit".

However, units that didn't have access to torpedoes routinely probably wouldn't have made effective torpedo bombers if torpedoes suddenly became available... the pressing of B-26's into torpedo bomber mode during the Battle of Midway springs to mind.

The game as it stands now really doesn't model different pilot skills very well: bomb some rocks enough and a unit's pilots will soon be able to outmaneuver other planes in air-to-air combat. AE will change this to some degree

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 36
RE: Just had to show this - 1/25/2009 5:52:01 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

real constraints were ground facilities and availability, not aircrew/aircraft capability.


Torpedo attacks need to be trained to be efective. Italians set up Torpedo schools and Germans in Mediterranean went there too.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 37
RE: Just had to show this - 1/25/2009 6:26:15 PM   
herwin

 

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From: Sunderland, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

real constraints were ground facilities and availability, not aircrew/aircraft capability.


Torpedo attacks need to be trained to be efective. Italians set up Torpedo schools and Germans in Mediterranean went there too.


Yes, but if you have some experts, they can bring the rest up to speed rapidly.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 38
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