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Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/14/2009 10:38:52 AM   
hellfirejet


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Hey Marshall,

This should get you going hehehehe!

For my first suggestion hows about.

2 TYPES OFF HEAVIES, CAN BE BUILT IN THE GAME 3DECKERS AND 2DECKERS

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 1/14/2009 10:40:10 AM >


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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/14/2009 1:23:50 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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How bout we make 2DECKERS light ships? :-)

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Outflank Strategy War Games



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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/14/2009 3:25:44 PM   
iamspamus

 

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Hee hee. Good answer, ME.
Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

How bout we make 2DECKERS light ships? :-)


(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 3
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/15/2009 1:05:09 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Hey Marshall,

This should get you going hehehehe!

For my first suggestion hows about.

2 TYPES OFF HEAVIES, CAN BE BUILT IN THE GAME 3DECKERS AND 2DECKERS


Speaking of 2 types of heavies, help me out a bit:
Were 3 deckers that much more destructive?
Were build times for 3 deckers way more?
More expensive?

I believe (I'm sure you know better) that the 2 deckers were more popular and I'm curious why???




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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



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Post #: 4
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/15/2009 2:21:15 PM   
hellfirejet


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Hi Marshall,

3 Deckers were used mainly by fleet Admirals as command ships, They were more powerful in every way compared to 3rd Rates in the game version of heavy ships, I have listed some of the major benefits below compared to 3rd rates.

1 = Approx 30 - 40 Feet more above the waterline than 3rd rate.

2 = Much heavier weight of broadside + plunging fire advantage.

3 = Much stronger hull giving better damage resistance.

4 = Much bigger so better gun platforms.

5 = Cost and build times are more in keeping with the game as is now approx 18 months.

6 = Admirals of the period classified them as a 2 - 1 advantage in combat compared to a 3rd rate.

I hope this enlightens you more about the difference in the 1st Rate v 3rd Rate comparison. Please note 1st and 2nd rates were 3Deckers having between 90 -120 guns.

Spains Santissima Trinidad was the worlds only 4Decker 1st Rate having 130 + guns

As For the third rate 74s they were the most popular Rate of ship, in the period because they were strong in battle attack and defense wise, also slightly quicker than 1st rates about 2 or 3 knots, build time more like 12 months and much cheaper than a 1st Rate 3 decker. They often sailed alone on various missions, and could engage any type of ship.


Footnote your reply about making 2 deckers light ships is spot on actually, because they were the lightest ships that took part in any real fighting in fleet battles. Frigates were not engaged by the heavies in these contests, and could be treated as transports in any fleet encounters

Talking about daft ideas hows this grab you :

In game heavies = 1st & 2nd Rate 3Deckers.

In game Lights = 3rd Rate & 4th Rate 2DECKERS.

Transports = Frigates and below ship types ie 5th Rates, 6th Rates, Sloops, Schooners, Transports & Merchants.

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 1/15/2009 4:47:25 PM >


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Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/15/2009 4:59:32 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Wow!
Remind me to come to you when I need some info on these navies!
Thanks a ton, Hellfirejet!

I must admit that while I know C++, I am rather weak in the naval forces of the nap era. Come to thank of it, I'm rather weak in the nap era PERIOD LOL (BUT I am learning).





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Post #: 6
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/15/2009 5:05:32 PM   
hellfirejet


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Hi Marshall,

Just doing my best to improve things and help all I can, can give plenty more info about the naval side, I really like the game alot, hope I can implement some of my ideas via the editor.

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Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/15/2009 5:09:21 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Great!
Stick around :-)





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Post #: 8
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/16/2009 7:57:08 AM   
hellfirejet


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Hello Marshall,

One possible solution to this naval thing is as below;

Heavy Fleets = 1st & 2nd Rates ships, fleet size 10, cost $12, build 15 months.

Medium Fleets = 3rd & 4th Rates ships, fleet size 20, cost $9, build 12 months.

Light Fleets = 5th & unrated ships, Fleet size 20, cost $6, built 9 months.

Transports = Transports & Merchant, Fleet size 50, cost $3, build 6 months.

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 1/23/2009 8:40:35 PM >


_____________________________

Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 9
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/16/2009 8:30:15 AM   
hellfirejet


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Hi Guys,
           Hows about on the Army side of things, being able to build Heavy & Light Cavalry.

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 1/16/2009 8:31:28 AM >


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Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to hellfirejet)
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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/16/2009 10:08:18 AM   
iamspamus

 

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I'll take some shots here, but most cavalry of the time would be heavy/medium. The lights were infrequently used for combat. With no hexes, but rather larger spaces, the duties of light cavalry (screening and recon) are not really needed in the game. Those that had a special capability for light cav (RUS, AUS, PRU) already have counters: cossacks and Freikorps. Interestingly, the Ottomans should probably have a cossack type counter or two as well.

Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Hi Guys,
           Hows about on the Army side of things, being able to build Heavy & Light Cavalry.


(in reply to hellfirejet)
Post #: 11
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/16/2009 10:48:21 AM   
hellfirejet


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Thanks Jason,
                  All replys are welcome, just trying to improve the game!

_____________________________

Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 12
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/16/2009 11:38:51 AM   
Mardonius


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Hi Jason:

I would not discount light cavalry here. Certainly they were not breaking squares (lancers excepted), but they can do a lot of damage to troops in tactical movement or on their flanks and to artillery formations or even heavy cav that has been found at a standstill or not enough room/space to gather the momentum of a charge. Moreover, Lt Dragoons -- atlhough not shock cavalry -- are a lot more flexible in that they can peck and snipe with their muskatoons (shot muskets). These advantages more than balance the armor of a curassier except in markedly flat terrain. Plus, it is light cavalry and dragoons (medium cav) that deals those devastating pursuit results...

I think the best way to capture Hellfirejet's suggestion about heavy/lt cav is to have a Gd Cavalry category with higher morale,as did EiH. These troops might cost $3 more and take 3 extra months to place and have a morale of 5. They would be limited to guard corps or imperial cav corps. Not sure if the Birts or the Spaniards should be able to build them. The Brits already have a great cav corps...

best
Mardonius


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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/19/2009 10:08:09 AM   
iamspamus

 

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I'd put dragoons in the medium category.

Heavy guard cav is a good idea. There should be one in the British corps with guard. Not sure about Spain (unless you're talking game balance and then why not one for Sweden, and one or two for Prus and Aus?)

Jason


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Hi Jason:

I would not discount light cavalry here. Certainly they were not breaking squares (lancers excepted), but they can do a lot of damage to troops in tactical movement or on their flanks and to artillery formations or even heavy cav that has been found at a standstill or not enough room/space to gather the momentum of a charge. Moreover, Lt Dragoons -- atlhough not shock cavalry -- are a lot more flexible in that they can peck and snipe with their muskatoons (shot muskets). These advantages more than balance the armor of a curassier except in markedly flat terrain. Plus, it is light cavalry and dragoons (medium cav) that deals those devastating pursuit results...

I think the best way to capture Hellfirejet's suggestion about heavy/lt cav is to have a Gd Cavalry category with higher morale,as did EiH. These troops might cost $3 more and take 3 extra months to place and have a morale of 5. They would be limited to guard corps or imperial cav corps. Not sure if the Birts or the Spaniards should be able to build them. The Brits already have a great cav corps...

best
Mardonius




(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 14
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/21/2009 7:11:50 PM   
hellfirejet


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Hey Folks,
               Here is another wacky idea for you all, when the game was design originally the standard dice was 6 sided or d6 for short.
             But that was years ago,and things change due to evolution and technology,so what I propose is this, how about drawing up a set of charts using shock horror D12 DICE, hey you just double your 1-1, 2-1 etc in one swoop how cool is that, you could even have D20 DICE OR D30 DICE. Since the game is restricted to very few dice being rolled, you now have a much greater combat differential. This can be added as an options ?

Ok! I here you all say nuts, but sometimes you move with the times or stagnate.

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 1/21/2009 8:32:51 PM >


_____________________________

Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 15
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/22/2009 9:30:11 AM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Hey Folks,
               Here is another wacky idea for you all, when the game was design originally the standard dice was 6 sided or d6 for short.
             But that was years ago,and things change due to evolution and technology,so what I propose is this, how about drawing up a set of charts using shock horror D12 DICE, hey you just double your 1-1, 2-1 etc in one swoop how cool is that, you could even have D20 DICE OR D30 DICE. Since the game is restricted to very few dice being rolled, you now have a much greater combat differential. This can be added as an options ?

Ok! I here you all say nuts, but sometimes you move with the times or stagnate.


Raising the dice-size would just give alot more randomness witch is not always a good thing.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to hellfirejet)
Post #: 16
RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/22/2009 11:27:39 AM   
Jonny_B


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Marshall,

What About:
Naval,
Corsairs, Sloops, and Ships of the Line (quality determine by country).

Army,
Light Cavalry, Light Infantry, Sharpshooters, Dragoons, Hussars etc. etc.

An some form of economic growth, metal cotton, trade skills, etc.

Have the leaders have certain attributes like cav (already exist), naval abilities, and defensive leadership abilities.



Jonny

< Message edited by Jonny_B -- 1/22/2009 11:56:20 AM >


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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/22/2009 12:55:31 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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:-0
So many things to add and so little time LOL!
I'm not sure I would have the time to get there.





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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/22/2009 1:06:21 PM   
bresh

 

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I dont agree that EIA is a game that supposed to be going such into detail. Even deeper than CoG went...
IF it went there it would loose many.

Also defensive abilities for certain leaders etc are already in game.
Au/Tu/Ru/(Even GB when it comes to naval) have special bonuses on certain battles.

Regards
Bresh

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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/22/2009 6:58:10 PM   
obsidiandragon


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I guess so... while we are on the idea of adding to the game, I would like to reiterate something brought up in another forum about Leaders..  I think there should be more...  even if only as an option for second class leaders available etc.. I would hate to think of a stack of british troops in 1805 just doing thier own thing without SOMEONE actually in charge until Wellington gets there... (by stack I mean the cav and guard corps LOL)

I like playing with the leader casualties (it adds a twist and a bit of unpredictability) but it does get interesting when you are trying to conduct a battle as Prussia and a leader dies...(since you only really have 2)...

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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/23/2009 2:13:49 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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BTW: Why did GBr only have three leaders???


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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/23/2009 6:03:35 PM   
iamspamus

 

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Basically, many of the famous leaders were corps commanders or so. So, partly for play balance and partly to NOT have tons of leaders like grouchy and hill or constantine (RU GD corps), they limited them. Thus FR and GB corps are INHERENTLY better than others. You can't have GB with 3 corps and 8 good leaders! I don't know if I agree with that or not, but that was the reasoning. I don't know if they could find any more turkish leaders by name anyway!

If we are adding a leader, it should be Muhammad Ali for Egypt. AND Bernadotte should HAVE TO become the leader of Sweden...

HFJ, a concern is that it seems like you want an entirely new game. That's the way it appears.
Jason


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

BTW: Why did GBr only have three leaders???



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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/24/2009 10:48:16 AM   
hellfirejet


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I'll take some shots here, but most cavalry of the time would be heavy/medium. The lights were infrequently used for combat. With no hexes, but rather larger spaces, the duties of light cavalry (screening and recon) are not really needed in the game. Those that had a special capability for light cav (RUS, AUS, PRU) already have counters: cossacks and Freikorps. Interestingly, the Ottomans should probably have a cossack type counter or two as well.

quote by = Jason

Hi Jason,
The sole purpose of "heavy" cav was to break the enemy in battle. These cavalry were typically cuirassiers, heavy dragoons, etc. They were expensive to outfit and to maintain, took a long time to train but were devastating on the battlefield if used correctly. Light cav served multiple roles. They were used for scouting, skirmishing, screening the main armies movements from enemy observation, raiding, escort duties, pretty much everything. On the battlefield they were placed on the flanks in battle to watch the flanks, scout for enemy outflanking moves and to maintain contact with other formations. They could be used in the main battle line for pursuit of beaten formations or even thrown in to charges - pretty much jack of all trades. Lancers are an interesting one. the French didn't have a lot (Russians had Cossacks who carried lances and Prussinas had Uhlans) and they were mainly used by them towards the end of the period. They had the famous polish lancers but also some line units which were present at Waterloo and did a lot of damage to the British cav who they counter charged once the British heavies had become "blown"...I could go on.....

There is quite a difference in the tactical uses of Heavy & Light cav.

PS. MY INTEREST THIS PERIOD IS NOT JUST NAVAL.

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 1/24/2009 11:08:01 AM >


_____________________________

Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/24/2009 12:46:48 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

I dont agree that EIA is a game that supposed to be going such into detail. Even deeper than CoG went...


I prefer the higher level abstractions in EiA for a grand strategy wargame. The increased detail and micromanagement in COG may be fine for some but let those details remain in those other games. I don't want them and have avoided COG because of that reason.

(in reply to hellfirejet)
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RE: Wacky options ideas land and sea - 1/24/2009 2:27:42 PM   
Beren


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Totally agree with pzgndr

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