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Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours)

 
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Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 12/27/2008 5:05:50 PM   
Stealth_Hitman


Posts: 52
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From: New York City
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Game problems
More tweaks to the camera movement (it feels slow changing around the camera angle with mouse)

Slow down and lag when moving mercenaries while a battle is going on

Game crashes when I move a merc and when it discovers an enemy really close by

Additions
A way to move an entire clip from inventory to merc backpack and visa versa

Show a hit indicator so I know if I have a chance to hit an enemy

Change the sound files of some women mercs who make moaning noises to something else (I am not playing as an interrogator who is sexually arousing the women)

An updated .pfd or text file of the more commonly asked F.A.Q. about functions in this game

I heard there was suppose to be night vision, either add them in or remove the slots (they take up resources and space)
Post #: 1
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 12/27/2008 5:30:00 PM   
Reinforce


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Have you checked to see if your settings are camra settings have been changed? If I recall the default is set rather low.

I find I only get slowdown lag when I've already been in turn based mode and then it switching back to real time mode when I can't find the last few hostiles on the map. Most annoying I second a fixing of that.

You may want to open a bug report in the tech section about your crash and post your DxDiag file there along with any other info you can give about this crash. I personaly have not had this happen so it may be a driver issue or something else. The Admins might be able to trouble shoot that for you.

As for the clips, You can double click to move things between your mercs backpacks and the sector storage.

There has been afew topics about haveing a hit % display. Or distance or both.

The night vision not being in and them leaveing the slots. There's really not that much memory taken up by this, Those spots are just places made on a TGA image file.


(in reply to Stealth_Hitman)
Post #: 2
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 12/28/2008 5:43:48 PM   
R@S

 

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First and foremost they have to fix the interrupt bug. Starting a new turn without any AP's is just too "Stoopid".

The slowdowns Reinforce mentions should be fixed as well. I don't remember experiencing that before the official patch but I might be wrong about that. I have a high end computer and it´s not that bad but it´s still annoying.

(in reply to Reinforce)
Post #: 3
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 12/29/2008 12:55:58 AM   
RinoaHeartily

 

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i would ask for more stealth play.. currently whenever you drop into enemy's area you are greeted by them immediately... remember JA.. you can still sneak around... taking them down one by one... truly classic

(in reply to R@S)
Post #: 4
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 12/29/2008 1:52:55 AM   
Reinforce


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RinoaHeartily

i would ask for more stealth play.. currently whenever you drop into enemy's area you are greeted by them immediately... remember JA.. you can still sneak around... taking them down one by one... truly classic


With good cammo and silenced weapons your able to sneak around alot prone. You just need to take your time... and it takes along time becouse the game will switch to turn based mode the moment you see an enemy. If however it didn't change to turn based the moment you spoted a tango and could pop afew shots into them with a silenced weapon that would be much much better... I have yet to Ninja kill someone with a knife though. Wish we could throw them at least then we'ed have a use for them. I would like to see a way of seeing just what the odds are of being spoted. Sadly however stealth is limited to mostly the long grass and bush maps. In the built up makes I agree it's really weak not being able to sneak about and down tangos quick and clean.

Another bug I've seen is Tangos that aren't moveing but are moveing.. It's hard to explain. Like the tangos over by a building but when you shoot at him your shooting off some other way and scoreing hits and kills. Or you get them blue "sound" people moveing around you but there's no one there... and no I don't belive in ghosts. But it's really annoying. I had venom shot and killed today by a tango who wasn't even where the game told me he was. I made damn sure to pepper the place with 40mm's befor my turn was over and all I did was kill the grass. The tango was over by the building, This was on the port map. Anyone else seen something like this or is all my long Hired gun hours starting to make me crazy?

Much Love,
Reinforce

(in reply to RinoaHeartily)
Post #: 5
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 12/29/2008 9:50:09 AM   
rx178

 

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I need % accuracy indicator !

(in reply to Reinforce)
Post #: 6
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 12/29/2008 10:32:00 PM   
Slick Wilhelm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reinforce

I made damn sure to pepper the place with 40mm's befor my turn was over and all I did was kill the grass.



I've given up on using the 40mm grenade launcher. I think grenades work better, because they have an arc to them when thrown, unlike the 40mm "rifle".

(in reply to Reinforce)
Post #: 7
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/4/2009 7:33:27 AM   
Stealth_Hitman


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I also notice that when I click on a certain area it takes the mercs 2 seconds or more to respond and move to the area, which I find annoying

(in reply to Stealth_Hitman)
Post #: 8
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/5/2009 12:19:33 PM   
goldfinger35

 

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It would be nice if looting was done similar to silent storm/hammer and sickle;
When you press "approve looting", you get your inventory on the left part of the screen and all items available for looting on right part of the screen. You select which items to pick up and which to leave.
The reason I would like that is because currently all items are looted including 20 helmets and cammo suits etc. and that is not needed.

< Message edited by goldfinger35 -- 1/5/2009 12:20:16 PM >

(in reply to Stealth_Hitman)
Post #: 9
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/5/2009 5:28:46 PM   
Zipuli

 

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My wishes:

-Animation speed changeable, as in SS:Sentinels... currently a lot of the enemy's turn is just watching slooooow animation
-adding of delays to DJ's orders and merc arrivals

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 10
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/5/2009 8:12:10 PM   
VassagoPT

 

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What I really wish is more of an expansion then a patch, because to be honest I would like all of JA2's features with Hired Guns 3D graphics...
To sum a few:
- Night and Night ops modifiers and specific gear (NVG and others).
- More mercs and ways to hire them, maybe implement the already coded extra mercs and put them on an extra merc agency or even allow their recruitment via tactical map action.
- use of other sort of ingame items, like the need of toolbox for repairs, need of gas to fuel the vehicles, metal detectors and minefields, remote explosives, craft materials and crafted items like the barrel extension and Molotovs, and maybe some new ideas.
- more maps and missions
- multiplayer mode.

But for now I would be very pleased with the following updates:
- performance optimization (there is no excuse for a game like this to be so resource demanding and performance hit while in tactical map in real-time is just absurd)
- implement proper interrupt management
- release a map editor that allows the community to create both new sectors and allow their selection via the strategic map (most of the game is already customizable so with such tool the community could freely turn this into a much better game obviously boosting it's ratings and sales).



(in reply to Zipuli)
Post #: 11
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/6/2009 8:17:59 PM   
goldfinger35

 

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A few more:
1) Fix this: When enemy is shooting at you, you can clearly see that he is firing from, let's say P90, but after you have killed him, he has no weapon.
2) Ability to "reserve" AP for going prone or firing (silimar to hammer and sickle)

(in reply to VassagoPT)
Post #: 12
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/6/2009 9:05:01 PM   
R@S

 

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Try to  fix the CPU usage. I have a dual core but the game only utilizes one of them, causing it to get a bit hotter than usual. STALKER had the same issue but then you could set the affinity in the task manager. This game is very unstable and when you try it you get a CTD.

The Tags should not be so low blocking the enemies heads. You have to juggle the cam a while before you can see if they wear a helmet.

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 13
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/7/2009 12:28:43 AM   
Slick Wilhelm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: goldfinger35
2) Ability to "reserve" AP for going prone or firing (silimar to hammer and sickle)


That is an outstanding idea! There have been a few times where I've gotten carried away and didn't leave enough AP's to go prone.

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 14
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/7/2009 1:36:39 AM   
Headshot

 

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I think that the most important fix is to FIX the Line Of Sight issues and I believe that in doing so you will find that stealth is alot better and actually usable.

I have done some stealth kills but most of the time I seem to get spotted even tho I am behind the enemies preceived LoS. How often have you spotted someone that is beyond your 180 degree field of vision ( which I know is actually 150 or so ), which tells me that the enemy is doing the same thing and spotting you when you should have been hidden.

Put up a range indicator under or over the targeting curser that simply calls and displays the Range Variable. Should be a simple and easy Fix.

Put a radio button / selection to allow us to TURN OFF the AUTO Tranperancy features so we can see the invisable trees and bushes that obstruct shots. This would also FIX the problem with mercs being stuck on the edge of a roof and unable to move on the roof or get down from the roof as noted in other posts about problems.

Have enemies drop ALL items carried in inventory. They cant be sold to gain money so why should they disappear.

Ok this is more of a money issue for those that want easier cash flow... make the trash can, a sell to locals depository at say 5 to 10% of the weapons new condition value. So a weapon with a new value of 1000 that is at 50 percent repair would get the player from $25-$50 put into thier account.

That it... for now.

Headshot

_____________________________

If you shoot them in the head they dont normally get back up and helmets dont stop AP rounds...

(in reply to Slick Wilhelm)
Post #: 15
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/7/2009 12:48:23 PM   
goldfinger35

 

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Oh, I almost forgot the most important thing: better AI (of enemies).
AI in this game is more or less the same as it was in 2004 game Silent Storm; all enemies just stand there when you shoot them. Or they run 20m and stand there. They should hide behind some cover etc.

I don't understand why is cover not used more in this type of games? It should be a key element of this type of games.
It should be implemented similar to "company of heroes" or "brothers in arms"; you "stick" your merc to some pre-set cover (bigger rocks, house, tree etc.). Enemies should also use that.

(in reply to Headshot)
Post #: 16
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/7/2009 2:37:39 PM   
redmarkus4


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I don't think there is any real AI in the game. All the enemy are able to do is either stand where the scenario developer put them, or run towards anyone who fires at them.

It would be better is ALL enemies were setup hiding in buildings etc. and waited for the player to come into line of sight. The way they behave now is just crazy.

(in reply to goldfinger35)
Post #: 17
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/7/2009 3:34:54 PM   
Slick Wilhelm


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I agree about the weak AI, but even so....if you're careless with your Merc's movements, the AI will kill them very quickly. 

(in reply to redmarkus4)
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RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/8/2009 4:28:48 AM   
Stealth_Hitman


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Many good ideas people are mentioning here. I would expect a patch in like a month or two im in no rush

(in reply to Stealth_Hitman)
Post #: 19
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/12/2009 2:36:05 AM   
RinoaHeartily

 

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after progressing thru the 3 day game day... i finally have something that i truly want implemented...

how about reserving ammo from dickie. It's extremely frustrating not to be able to get the 7.64 x .45 ammo or something like that for those cool sniper rifles!

Even amazon website i can reserve something that's out of stock!

(in reply to Stealth_Hitman)
Post #: 20
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/16/2009 7:04:44 AM   
LimeyBugger

 

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I would like to see a couple of things:

1. replace the localization team. Translations are at times incomprehensible. I don't know who did the English translations for the game, but I suspect they spent far too much of their salary on vodka.

2. stability and performance issues. I believe Matrix has enough dumps to identify the worst offending crashes. Seeing the same crashes after another patch will be very disappointing. If the developers ever want to grow beyond a niche market, they're going to have to take stability and performance testing _BEFORE_ release far more seriously.

3. more reasonable implementation of interrupts. Developers can refer to JA2 for ideas if they're lost.

4. alarm notifications (guards alerting others) needs to be implemented to allow for "ninja kills" - as it stands, it's 90% a slug-fest, where you do your best to fight from where you enter. There isn't very much in the way of sneaking around to a position of choice before starting combat.

4a. night fighting - related to 4, so a sub-section. There's a clock, and I can't see any reason why night fighting can't be implemented. Not just as a visibility range parameter - but a real change on the maps, where lit and unlit areas make a real difference. Again, refer to JA2, This might require some map work, but I can't see it being too onerous.

5. hidden goodies. Seriously - how many JA2 players can remember prying or picking every single box, locker and crate for whatever hidden goodie they might contain - regardless of whether or not it was actually needed. There's probably some Pavlovian explanation to it, but prying open every single container seemed to be a common pastime.

6. documentation of as much of the modding parameters as possible, as well as a (perhaps command line?) system of using alternate mods without wholesale replacement of files. This has been done reasonably well with MTW2, where modders can put together specific packages - each of which can be used independently of others without file-swapping.

7. economics - reduce the reliance on sector income. Selling opponent drops would make it more rewarding to the player to actively raid and engage, rather than taking a few profitable sectors, piling up the guards, and engaging enemies only as necessary. As it stands, there's no reward for raiding or actively defending (ie: pulling back and letting the NPC guards defend).

8. probably outside the scope of a patch, but releasing some of the dev tools would almost assuredly extend the life of the (or next, if they survive) game. I don't think I have to point out the number of games whose lives have been dramatically extended due to the ability of the mod community to turn out their own maps, graphics, etc. OK, perhaps I need an example - look at NWN - a pretty mundane game by any account, had its life stretched out for years due to their allowing the mod community to extensively script and alter the base product. How many games of NWN's age do you _STILL_ see on the shelves?


< Message edited by LimeyBugger -- 1/16/2009 7:08:11 AM >

(in reply to RinoaHeartily)
Post #: 21
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/18/2009 10:20:53 PM   
Edgewise

 

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I'll add another vote for adding night.  Additionally, make improvements take time to be implimented, I mean how long does it take to put in a new generator at the damn? I'd say months or years irl, more for some backwater in Africa.  We could do a couple weeks in the game, perhaps just fixing one that's there instead of putting in a new one which would cost millions and require a partial rebuild of the damn.  I think you get the idea?   Make counter attacks bigger, better, and more common.  Look hard at Reinforce's mod.  I would have quit the game after my first run-through which took about 2 days if not for that mod making me think there is hope for the game so long as people keep working on it. 

Allow mercs to climb through windows, switch places with NPC's, or eachother, costing AP as if each moved independant of the other.  Defending the damn, I've been blocked from going over the small bridge several times by a NPC going half way over and crouching when he saw an enemy way across the map.

Change the character creation process!  Rather than a quizz, just give people an additional 40 points, charge 20 points per skill, 10 per positive personality trait and -10 for negative traits.  Be creative, add stuff. -50 for a deaf Merc. +20 for exceptional hearing, exceptional health, etc. -25 for a partially lame merc who can only walk, not run.  As it is, you can't take certain combos, and some abilities are not available at all like camo.

Again I'll add a vote for better AI, the AI is really really awful.  If they took cover or just went prone after firing/being fired at, this would make a huge difference.  When one comes under fire, he should call his friends to his location so they don't sit spread all over the map allowing you to pick them off with a silenced weapon one at a time while they stand there stupidly.  Give the soldiers wearing uniforms a camo bonus of 25 or so.  For every 10 soldiers (not militia), have one with a sniper rifle and good accuracy who will try to shoot from far away, one with a machine gun and auto fire skill, one with a heavy weapon and heavy weapon skill.  RPG's are as common as dirt in some parts of Africa, no reason the dictators troops shouldn't have a bunch.  Additionally, one sarge with high stats and an assault rifle, one officer with good stats and a pistol, the other 5 troops with SMG's and assault rifles.  All of the regular troops (soldiers) should have a grenade they can throw. Guards should be similar but better.

Weapon distribution: Militia should have a mix of low-end and old equipment, much as they do in the game.  Pistols, rifles, cheap SMG's, rarely assault rifles.  They should not have desert eagles or calico SMG's or calico AR's.  I'd be surprised if there are ANY calico's in all of Africa outside the private collections or private security forces of a few wealthy people in South Africa.  Possibly mercs would use these, but they should be rare, not 20% of all AR's dropped in the game.  It is a very cool gun but seriously, you can buy an AK variant for a lot less money, and they're very common anyplace where there is war or dictators.  Soldiers should use standard military weapons, but not the bleeding edge stuff imo. AKM's, AK-74's, RPK-74's, RPG's, the occasional western assault rifle, 9x18 pistols.  Red dot sights should be reserved for the Elite troops, along with AK-100 series weapons, caseless ammo SMG's, 50 cal sniper rifles, uber heavy weapons, etc.

Body armor in general works better in this game than in reality. Make armor get damaged more easily and not be repairable.  How do you repair a hole in kevlar? You buy another one.  Needle and thread aint gonna cut it.  Any weapon damaged beyond 50% should be broke to the point that it's junk and can't be fixed with a screw driver.  Unless you got a machine shop in your back pocket to fabricate a new part... Maybe a new NPC could be added who can fix even the most damaged gear because he just happens to have all kinds of stuff in his factory.  But you gotta do him some 'favors' or pay him a ton to get him on your side.  Decrease the amount of damage body armor prevents when it is not penetrated, increase the amount of stamina you lose when getting hit and the body armor is not penetrated.  I'd also say increase all weapon damage in general by about 50% or maybe 100%.  It should be at least 50% likely that 1 shot from an AR to the torso will put them to critical, dying, or dead on an average unprotected target.  I don't think that the game damage is even close to that.  Head shots to an unprotected target should be 75% fatal imo from any weapon. Even with a helmet, you should have a 30-45% chance of getting hit in the face/neck. 

Alot of the weapons are a bit off on damage, range, AP cost etc in relation to other weapons in what almost seems a sort of arbitrary and slightly random way of assigning values.  Let's use the M1 rifle as our starting point because it's the first rifle you can get for free assuming you don't immediately start a fight with the soldiers like I do. It has an assigned AP of 7, damage of 22, range of 75, weight of 4.32 lbs.  Using any modern .30-06 cartridge, it should outrange almost any assault rifle, but it doesn't. Remember, back in the first half of the 20th century, rifles were built for range.  Most WW-I and II rifles are accurate at 1KM or more, and most modern sniper rifles are derivatives of these early weapons.  The M1 was considered great at 400m if in the right hands.  Most assault rifles are great to 200-300m.  So range-wise, I think alot of rifles are gimped in the game.  Also, alot of 'sniper' rifles seem to do proportionally more damage than they should, like it's classification magically improves it's lethality.  Some sniper rifles have suped up cartridges that do indeed hit with tremendous force, but alot of the 'sniper' rifles are just rifles... with a scope. 

I've fired M-16A1's, A2's, and A4's, and AR-15's.  I've also fired AK-47's and owned an SKS until I moved away from Texas and had to leave it behind. I have alot of good things to say about soviet firearms, but how the AK's have a lower AP is baffling to me.  I could buy giving them higher damage, great reliability, low cost,  better armor penetration... But the AP on the M-16's should be lower. The M-16's are lighter, have a better center of gravity, and less recoil.  The basic M-16 battle-sights are super easy to use.  The M-16 is fast aiming and low recoil, and generally beats most AR's in those reguards, so giving it a higher AP than an AKM and 50% higher AP than the AK-100's is just off.  I could go on here for a very long time, but I guess I'll just say you guys should take a second look at many of the weapon stats.

Lasers... I don't get how a laser increases your range.  Imo it should be more like an auto aim feature that gives you a free 2-3 points of aiming or so and only works out to a range of about 20.  A tiny deviation in allignment will make the laser useless at longer ranges unless you can calibrate it very well, and even then the bullet trajectory won't follow the beam.  These are useful in close quarters so you don't have to take any time aiming when charging through a door, and that's about it. Oh... and movies, hollywood likes to put them on for the 'cool' effect.  For this reason, I recommend restricting them to Pistols, SMG's, and shotguns.  Give them the added negative of -30 camo when equiped too, since the dancing laser light show might well give you away.

Get rid of HP ammo for high powered (Rifle, assault rifle, sniper rifle) cartridges.  Many manufacturers have tried/are trying to come up with a high velocity HP type bullet, so far none have worked out afaik.  The standard high velocity rounds are plenty deadly just like they are, and exploding bullets designed for exploding in human targets are banned by international law.  Get rid of all but AP ammo for caseless ammo, as those weapons and the ammo they use is designed specifically to be armor piercing, and no non-armor piercing ammo variants would even work in them.  Also, get rid of damage negatives for AP.  AP rounds have a steel core and are expensive to make, but generally have just as much mass and velocity as standard rounds if not more.  They should be very costly because of how they are manufactured and also because they are illegal virtually everywhere outside of military/police use.

I'll stop now... :)




(in reply to LimeyBugger)
Post #: 22
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/18/2009 10:38:23 PM   
Reinforce


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quote:

Allow mercs to climb through windows


They can, I've done it afew times. I look sweet doing it too here's a screen shot.




Much Love,
Reinforce

(in reply to Edgewise)
Post #: 23
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/19/2009 12:10:11 AM   
Edgewise

 

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*GASP* Ok, how? :P  when I try they just walk around through the door.  In JA1 and 2 there was a button that would jump onto/over/through stuff when you were next to it, so you could jump over a short fence, through a window, onto a box or roof when and how you wanted.  Now it's kinda random, tell a guy to climb onto the roof, he walks over, jumps on a box, jumps off the box, turns around jumps back on the box then finally jumps onto the roof.  I tell my guy to go through the window, he walks around over to the door, through the building, then over to the other side of the window. :) 

(in reply to Reinforce)
Post #: 24
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/19/2009 12:52:28 AM   
Reinforce


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Did you shoot the window out? If it's there you can't go threw it. I had blasted this window out with gunfire awhile befor hand and dove in for cover. Seems to be a size issue on some windows too. Can't dive threw the little ones.

Much Love,
Reinforce

(in reply to Edgewise)
Post #: 25
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/19/2009 12:15:35 PM   
LimeyBugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edgewise
...so you could jump over a short fence, through a window, onto a box or roof when and how you wanted.


I feel your pain. Just went back to re-take a sector. One of the houses had a merc (no longer in my employ) in it, and I wanted to come around the far side of the house. The idea was to come in through the back door and blast him, since he seemed to be content to stay in the front room.

Alas, the house was surrounded by a little garden fence - the only opening in which was leading up the front walk.

My devious flanking move foiled by a 3-foot tall picket fence. I cursed my mercenary's combat training. Auto weapons - check. Pistols - check. Explosives - check. First aid - check. Hopping picket fences... er... "sorry boss - SAS training just didn't cover picket fences. Look at those pointy wooden pickets. I don't dare hop it!"

I ended up blowing out the front of the house (and the merc inside) with a RPG.

Damn those picket fences. Centuries of military knowledge crammed into the training of a modern soldier - and they overlooked fences. Good thing the terrorists don't know. Otherwise, they'd sneak up to the army bases at night and stealthily erect garden fences. TVs would stand helplessly outside as the soldiers slowly starved to death, unable to escape their heinous prison.

quote:

Get rid of HP ammo for high powered (Rifle, assault rifle, sniper rifle) cartridges. Many manufacturers have tried/are trying to come up with a high velocity HP type bullet, so far none have worked out afaik.


Actually, it seems they have -
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/core-Lokt.asp

quote:

For every 10 soldiers (not militia), have one with a sniper rifle and good accuracy who will try to shoot from far away


I'm not sure I get this. You're complaining about the lack of Calicos in RL Africa - but you're quite happy that 10% of the soldiers are walking around with a Dragunov, M-24 or perhaps even a .50 cal M-82? I think you're contradicting yourself here - you want weapon rarity (or prevalence in 3rd world usage) to be reflected in HG.... but you suggest this? Or do you really think sniper rifles are _THAT COMMON_? Do you really think they're _THAT COMMON_ in a 3rd world military (who are for the most part still using WW2 gear)?

quote:

(AP ammo) should be very costly because of how they are manufactured and also because they are illegal virtually everywhere outside of military/police use.


I'm not clear on what your complaint is. But I can only assume you mean:
1. AP ammunition is too cheap in HG
DJ sells .38 AP ammo for $10 - that's $10 PER SHELL. You don't think that's already a little "over market value" for AP ammunition? 12x70 buckshot ammo (yes, very rare) for about $$8.50 each - that's reasonable? I agree that prices need some looking at - but for every example of "too cheap" you can point out, I'm sure I can point out something that's "insanely expensive". Granted, ammo prices need work - but "AP is too cheap" as a blanket statement, isn't reasonable imo.

2. AP ammo is rare because it's restricted to military/police
I somehow suspect Dickie Jay isn't too worried about vetting his customers. So as to the first part of your argument that they're illegal - well, ask yourself if either he or his clients would really care.

Considering he also sells RPGs, dynamite, grenade launchers - ya, I think it's reasonable to assume he has access to "military/police" supply channels. So what's your complaint?

< Message edited by LimeyBugger -- 1/19/2009 1:23:30 PM >

(in reply to Edgewise)
Post #: 26
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/19/2009 4:08:28 PM   
Edgewise

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 1/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Actually, it seems they have -
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/core-Lokt.asp


I -really- want to see the performance stats on those rounds.  I suspect they are not high velocity, particularly from the description of the copper thickness.  Could be wrong though... Let me know if you can find more info on those please.

quote:

I'm not sure I get this. You're complaining about the lack of Calicos in RL Africa - but you're quite happy that 10% of the soldiers are walking around with a Dragunov, M-24 or perhaps even a .50 cal M-82? I think you're contradicting yourself here - you want weapon rarity (or prevalence in 3rd world usage) to be reflected in HG.... but you suggest this? Or do you really think sniper rifles are _THAT COMMON_? Do you really think they're _THAT COMMON_ in a 3rd world military (who are for the most part still using WW2 gear)? 


What exactly do you consider to be a sniper rifle?  A springfield M1903 (standard infantry weapon in WW1, standard sniper rifle in WW2, and still in limited military use today) with a scope is deadly at 1KM.  You don't need a Druganov, M-24, or .50 cal, you didn't read my whole post I think.  A 'sniper' rifle is just a rifle... with a scope.  the vast majority of modern sniper rifles are derivatives of WW1/WW2 battle rifles carried by typical infantry troops.  Eventually it was realized that the average soldier was not engaging targets beyond 200 meters, so modern military weapons are typically accurate to 200-300 meters.  Lighter cartridges with new deadlier ammo allows smaller grain projectiles to still be very effective, but now the soldier can carry 3-4 times as much ammo, and put more rounds down range in less time with low recoil weapons.  The next time you look at a sniper rifle however, consider that a couple generations ago, almost every soldier had a weapon that could be made into a sniper rifle simply by putting a scope on it.  So if they use WW2 gear then -YES- they'd have sniper rifles. Some WW2 main battle rifles were accurate to 2KM! That particular rifle was also about 6 feet long however, not very practical but I think you get the idea. Older rifles = Longer range and bigger cartridge.

quote:

I'm not clear on what your complaint is. But I can only assume you mean:
1. AP ammunition is too cheap in HG
DJ sells .38 AP ammo for $10 - that's $10 PER SHELL. You don't think that's already a little "over market value" for AP ammunition? 12x70 buckshot ammo (yes, very rare) for about $$8.50 each - that's reasonable? I agree that prices need some looking at - but for every example of "too cheap" you can point out, I'm sure I can point out something that's "insanely expensive". Granted, ammo prices need work - but "AP is too cheap" as a blanket statement, isn't reasonable imo. 

2. AP ammo is rare because it's restricted to military/police
I somehow suspect Dickie Jay isn't too worried about vetting his customers. So as to the first part of your argument that they're illegal - well, ask yourself if either he or his clients would really care.

It should be more... considerably more for military grade AP rounds. Partly because they are expensive to make and partly because they are illegal and black market exchanges add considerably to the cost.  So dickie Jay isn't worried about vetting his customers... that doesn't change the fact that he's gotta buy it through illegal channels.  Who cares about his customers?  I'm talking about how much he has to pay to get them in the first place.  As for buckshot ammo, I wasn't looking at that at all as AP.  It completely fails to be AP.  I have no idea why you'd even mention it in a conversation about AP.  I'm talking about steel/tungsten/carbide core rounds. Not tipped, not FMJ, not tracer, not ball, and not buckshot.  I'm talking about bullets that cut through any existing body armor like a cotton t-shirt. Most high velocity rounds will do this already at close range, but I'm talking about bullets effective at medium and long ranges. Again, I'm thinking you either did not read my entire post or are very selectively responding to it.

quote:

  Considering he also sells RPGs, dynamite, grenade launchers - ya, I think it's reasonable to assume he has access to "military/police" supply channels. So what's your complaint?

RPG's are made very cheap by many countries that will sell them litterally to anyone with cash.  -You- yes you can go to China (assuming you have the cash) and buy an RPG -and- something to shoot it at, -and- a military operator there showing you exactly how to use it.  This is not illegal or black market, but completely endorsed/encouraged by the Chinese military and government. Grenade launchers... well RPG is a grenade launcher, (RPG stands for rocket propelled grenade) and Dynamite is commercially available everywhere, even in countries without running water.  AP rounds are not.  I'm don't know if I can justify or explain the cosmic reasonning for this, it simply is the way it is.

(in reply to LimeyBugger)
Post #: 27
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/19/2009 11:03:00 PM   
LimeyBugger

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/11/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edgewise

I -really- want to see the performance stats on those rounds. I suspect they are not high velocity, particularly from the description of the copper thickness. Could be wrong though... Let me know if you can find more info on those please.


Dammit - I had a page with some serious testing. But I found this - might give some insight.

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/mar96premium.html

Pretty old article - hard to say what things are like now.

*edit*
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

I think that has most of what you might be looking for.

quote:

What exactly do you consider to be a sniper rifle?


Single shot, long barreled rifle, generally. FN-FAL is kind of in a grey area for that due to its characteristics. In general, a rifle designed for long-range engagements. M1, yes, comes under that description. Pity they gave 30-06 sich pitiful damage.

quote:

...because they (AP ammunition) are expensive to make and partly because they are illegal and black market exchanges add considerably to the cost.


Illegal in the USA - that doesn't necessarily apply to some banana republic, where they may be perfectly legal. Laws change quite a lot from one state to the next. Handguns are pretty common in the USA, but in countries like the UK or Iceland - well, good luck trying to get a license for one. AP ammunition? What's the laws regarding that in Sudan or Zimbabwe? It's quite plausible that they don't have any laws regarding AP ammunition.

My point here is that legal or illegal doesn't mean much where you're dealing with gun runners. It doesn't mean that it makes the product hard to get nor terribly expensive. Victor Bout is a prime example. He delivered helicopters, AA guns and armoured vehicles - all quite illegal for civilian use. If you look at the charges against him however, they're mainly financial related - the activities which got him in hot water were his supplying of "terrorists" (highly subjective term, I'm not touching that - by some definitions, we're playing terrorists in HG). Most of his activities were legal, or sufficiently gray that the authorities weren't bothered to do anything about them.

Heck - illegal is a subjective term. Most of these transactions were probably quite legal considering the laws of the states involved. What are the laws for arms export in BananaRepublic1 and the laws for imports in BananaRepublic2? Pretty murky area. You might note that the strongest international warrants against him are based on money laundering - financial matters, not his gun running.

Look at cocaine or other recreational drugs. Illegal? Yes. Hard to get? No. Hard to get in large quantities? Certainly not. Expensive? Well, I pay more per gram for printer ink. So no, not really expensive.

The price of these "illegal" goods is determined by the market. Victor Bout was a big fish in the gun running pond. That doesn't make him the only one. More competitors would drive the price down.

quote:

So dickie Jay isn't worried about vetting his customers... that doesn't change the fact that he's gotta buy it through illegal channels. Who cares about his customers?


Actually.... from what I understand of Victor Bout's dealings, most of what he gets is through perfectly legal channels. The problem is with who he sells it to.

Sale to Victor - legal
Sale from Victor to customer - not so legal
Handling of taxes for payment - clearly illegal - money laundering

Your argument is that it's "illegal" - but then you say "Who cares about his customers?". That's the whole point. The customer _DETERMINES_ the whole legality.

You're really confusing me.

quote:

I have no idea why you'd even mention it (buckshot) in a conversation about AP.


My point is that _ALL_ HG prices are out of whack. They need to be standardized, so it's not half the price to buy ammunition in one manner as opposed to another.

quote:

Grenade launchers... well RPG is a grenade launcher, (RPG stands for rocket propelled grenade)


RPG - "any hand-held, shoulder-launched anti-tank weapons capable of firing an unguided rocket equipped with an explosive warhead"

Grenade launcher - "launches a grenade with more accuracy, higher velocity and to greater distances than a soldier could throw it by hand"

Note the difference between "anti-tank rocket" and "grenade". A RPG is not a grenade launcher.

quote:

RPG's are made very cheap by many countries that will sell them litterally to anyone with cash.


You think that the same doesn't apply for AP ammunition?

quote:

Dynamite is commercially available everywhere, even in countries without running water.


It was one example in a list of items DJ sells, which would indicate that he's not restricted to civilian channels. Yes, it's "commercially available" - that doesn't mean "easy to get", however. Explosives tend to be far more tightly regulated than the AP ammunition you comment on.

quote:

-You- yes you can go to China (assuming you have the cash) and buy an RPG -and- something to shoot it at, -and- a military operator there showing you exactly how to use it.


Hold on - that's completely out of context. The activities you're talking about DO NOT involve you putting it in your bags to take home. You get to _SHOOT_ the weapon. Some businessman gets his rocks off seeing something go boom. That doesn't mean he has the right to take a few dozen back with him for the trip home. I've heard there's places in Russia where you can pay to shoot things from a tank. That doesn't mean you're going home with a T-80, tho.

quote:

Again, I'm thinking you either did not read my entire post or are very selectively responding to it.


I read it all. I simply responded to the bits I disagreed with. So yes, I'm responding selectively. If I didn't comment on it, I didn't have any disagreement (or missed it).

< Message edited by LimeyBugger -- 1/20/2009 2:07:48 AM >

(in reply to Edgewise)
Post #: 28
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/20/2009 4:54:48 AM   
Edgewise

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 1/18/2009
Status: offline
quote:

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/mar96premium.html
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Good stuff.  What I was hoping for tbh was more like something demonstrating the muzzle velocity of the hollow points to determine if they are infact high velocity rounds.  The historical problem with HP rifle rounds has been making one that had the range and power of a normal cartridge.  The data the second chart shows for the 5.56 rounds are normal rounds btw.  All the small assault rifle rounds tumble on impact these days.
quote:

Single shot, long barreled rifle, generally. FN-FAL is kind of in a grey area for that due to its characteristics. In general, a rifle designed for long-range engagements. M1, yes, comes under that description. Pity they gave 30-06 sich pitiful damage.

So why would you say that militia having old weapons and sniper rifles would be contradictory?
quote:

Illegal in the USA -

Like it or not, the US is by far the place with the widest diversity of ammo manufacture on the planet.  I dunno of any other country where you can find AP ammo that is not manufactured exclusively for or in some cases by the military.  I'm sure there are private comanies someplace, but they would be very rare.  Buying weapons from a guy who got them at discount prices from military sources is a completely rational premise for mercs in HG, but you'd still be getting standard ball ammo afaik.  My knowledge of Russian ammo manufacture is far from extensive but I'm pretty sure you'll find their armories stuffed with typical ball and tracer rounds, not AP.  If you want to get steel core rounds for whatever personal use, I can't think of anyplace you could get them really except from US based suppliers.
quote:

RPG - "any hand-held, shoulder-launched anti-tank weapons capable of firing an unguided rocket equipped with an explosive warhead"

Grenade launcher - "launches a grenade with more accuracy, higher velocity and to greater distances than a soldier could throw it by hand"

Note the difference between "anti-tank rocket" and "grenade". A RPG is not a grenade launcher.

I have to disagree here and say Wiki has failed you.  RPG is a Rocket Propelled Grenade.  A LAW (Light Anti-tank Weapon) is a shoulder fired anti tank rocket, as is an AT-4 (Anti-Tank), as are a couple dozen other weapons that are -not- RPG's.  Some RPG ammo is shaped charge specifically designed to be armor penetrating, some is not at all usefull vs a tank, some is multi-purpose high explosive. Some is exotic/uncommon.  Anti tank hand-grenades and shaped charge 40mm rounds exist as well. A shaped charge RPG round is definitely used for poking holes in light armored vehicles or weak spots on tanks, but it's no less a grenade.  Tbh, the shaped charge variety of RPG-7 rounds is largely useless against most tanks and armored fighting vehicles, same with the LAW.  I remember watching an M2 AFV shrug off several RPG hits on live TV early in the US invasion of Iraq. Back in the 60's they were ok vs light armor, but today they're really not much use in an anti-armor role.  Great vs trucks, walls, bunkers, and infantry.
quote:

You think that the same doesn't apply for AP ammunition?

I've already laid out exactly what I think.  Insofar as all high velocity rounds are inately AP in nature, ap rounds are all over the place, the standard ammo for assault rifles everywhere.  If you want to differentiate steel/tungsten/carbide core penetrator rounds as 'AP' and standard rounds as just standard rounds, then yes, it would absolutely not apply to those rounds.
quote:

It was one example in a list of items DJ sells, which would indicate that he's not restricted to civilian channels. Yes, it's "commercially available" - that doesn't mean "easy to get", however. Explosives tend to be far more tightly regulated than the AP ammunition you comment on.

You would think that, but infact that is not the case. It is very easy to get or even make explosives.  That is not the case with the specialized core ammo I was describing.  It is not easy to make, or get.
quote:

Hold on - that's completely out of context. The activities you're talking about DO NOT involve you putting it in your bags to take home. You get to _SHOOT_ the weapon. Some businessman gets his rocks off seeing something go boom. That doesn't mean he has the right to take a few dozen back with him for the trip home. I've heard there's places in Russia where you can pay to shoot things from a tank. That doesn't mean you're going home with a T-80, tho.

Ever been to a massage parlor? Sure, you can get a normal massage, all above board. For a little extra you get the 'happy' massage.  If you grease the right palms, have the right paperwork, then just like Victor Bout you keep talking about, you too can be driving home in a tank.

(in reply to LimeyBugger)
Post #: 29
RE: Next Patch ideas and suggestions (post yours) - 1/20/2009 9:36:50 AM   
LimeyBugger

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/11/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edgewise

So why would you say that militia having old weapons and sniper rifles would be contradictory?


Because it includes Dragunov, M-82, M-24. All pretty high-end weapons. Your statement included some rather high end gear, without any qualifier. "... a cheap but long range weapon - for example a M1 w. a scope" - would be fine. The term "sniper rifle" could be giving your hypothetical militia man a weapon worth more than he earns in a decade.

quote:

Like it or not, the US is by far the place with the widest diversity of ammo manufacture on the planet.


... and? Wal-Mart is the biggest retailer - does that mean, "if you can't get it at Wal-Mart, you can't get it? Guess what? There's other stores around...

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/07/chinese-made-ar.html

Sorry, the Iraqui insurgents got their hands on AP ammo. Where'd it come from? Not the USA - China. Yep, some wild-eyed nutter in a turban can get AP ammo. So, why exactly can't professional mercenaries get it, then?

quote:

I dunno of any other country where you can find AP ammo that is not manufactured exclusively for or in some cases by the military.


See above - they're being exported.

For military use only? So? You think that stops gun runners? In 1999-2001, 18 Kh-55 CRUISE MISSILES were smuggled out of Russia to Iran. Those are clearly manufactured _BY_ and _FOR_ exclusive military use. Yet they got their paws on them. You're saying that gun runners can get cruise missiles, tanks, AA, etc - but somehow they'd be hard pressed to get AP ammo?

The USA is the biggest arms exporter in the world - yes. Only? Nope. Russia, Germany, UK, France, Israel, China - there's lots of other fish in the pond.

Come on, France's sale of Exocet missiles to Argentina gave the UK a real headache. 3rd world banana republic with modern anti-ship missiles? Who'd have guessed? But you didn't read about it in the mainstream press before the Falklands war. Just because you're not seeing it in the popular press, doesn't mean it isn't happening. You won't find the manufacturers, purchasers or any middle-men in the arms trade are out for publicity.

quote:

I'm sure there are private comanies someplace, but they would be very rare.


Well, someone in Iraq found one of those "very rare" arms suppliers.

There's lots of private companies. Izmash, Norico, IMBEL, to name a few. State controlled? Yes. Involved in the world arms trade? You bet'cha. There's loads of these "rare" companies in the world arms trade. They don't just supply their nation's industry. If there's profit to be had, they'll happily export. If there's political gains to be had as well? Guess what? Missing shipments turn up in the oddest of places, and nobody bats an eye.

*EDIT*
I think you're getting confused with "rare" and "hard to acquire". One doesn't necessarily mean the other. The fact that most banana republic forces don't have AP ammo has more to do with the fact that most peasants armed with sharpened papayas aren't wearing body armor. Nor do the ill-paid and ill-trained soldiers for that matter, making it not a priority for the rabble to acquire. Rarity of specialized armor piercing ammunition has more to do with market forces than a lack of suppliers - or that's my guess.


quote:

...but you'd still be getting standard ball ammo afaik.  My knowledge of Russian ammo manufacture is far from extensive but I'm pretty sure you'll find their armories stuffed with typical ball and tracer rounds, not AP.  If you want to get steel core rounds for whatever personal use, I can't think of anyplace you could get them really except from US based suppliers.


China. As shown above.

I can't see why other suppliers would be any different.

quote:

I have to disagree here and say Wiki has failed you...


Wiki isn't infallible. But it's generally accurate. I challenged you to find a reputable source which uses "your" definitions. You didn't provide one, and your strongest argument is "wiki failed you". Go find a source. I have a source for my argument, you don't.

Do you really think you're being reasonable in your refusal to accept my source, on the argument that "it's wrong" - despite the fact that you haven't offered a single source to back up your argument?

quote:

RPG is a Rocket Propelled Grenade.


Since you're basing your whole argument on the wording - well, hate to break it to you, but "RPG" doesn't mean that. Ruchnoi Protivotankovye Granatamyot is what it means - "hand-held anti-tank grenade-launcher". Get your facts straight.

Go do some research. Find an reputable source that says a RPG-7 _IS_ a grenade launcher. Don't try to mince words, especially since you haven't understand the words you're trying to mince.

*EDIT*
There seems to be some ambiguity as to the use of the term "grenade". It seems to be used quite liberally for anything that "goes boom". Hand grenade. Anti-tank grenade. There seems to be a lot of ambiguity as to what defines a "grenade". This might be your source of confusion. Just keep in mind that while a RPG is a "grenade launcher" in that it's warhead is a "grenade" by some definitions - you have to look at the Russian usage of the term, "ANTI-TANK". I think that's what really draws the line between a "grenade launcher" and "RPG". From what I can see:
1. Grenade launchers are primarily anti-personnel, where RPGs are _ALWAYS_ anti-tank.
2. RPGs are _ALWAYS_ hand-held, whereas a grenade launcher can include weapons which are crew served or vehicle mounted.

So does this mean there's no overlap in the wording? Nope. But the same goes for "rifle" and "pistol" and "carbine". There's a degree of overlap in all these. (eg: Mortimer's "pistol" in For a Few Dollars more). However, people generally know what they mean when they use one term or the other.

All RPGs come under the rather liberal definition of "grenade launcher", but not all "grenade launchers" fit the definition of "RPG". The use of the term RPG, by definition, _ONLY_ includes those which are hand-held and anti-tank by design. A Milkor Stopper 37/38 mm riot gun is a grenade launcher. A M-79 is a grenade launcher. A mortar could be described, quite loosely, as a grenade launcher. Hell, a Katyusha could be argued to be a "grenade launcher". Hell, an UR-100 could probably be argued to be a "grenade" that's "launched"... man, that's an ICBM! It's launched - its warhead goes "boom" as any grenade does - ya, sure - it's a "grenade launcher". But none of these are RPGs.

I concede that RPGs are "grenade launchers". It covers a pretty damned broad swath of weapons. I've yet to see a 81mm mortar be described in any military literature, as a "grenade launcher" - but by by the given definition - yep, it is. But you're really losing me with your argument that a LAW or AT-4 aren't RPGs. They are. My original statement was, "Considering he also sells RPGs, dynamite, grenade launchers" - well, some of what he supplies are grenade launchers (M-79, M-203) but do not fall in the classification of RPGs. Thus, I think I was quite correct in using separate descriptors for them.

Well, that's how I suss things out.


*FINAL EDIT*
ARGH! There doesn't seem to be any definition of "grenade" or "launcher" - from what I can see, a "grenade launcher" encompasses anything from a M-79, to a riot tear gas launcher, to a mortar, to an ICBM. Definition of "grenade launcher" seems to be more by consensus than definition. Why don't you give me _YOUR_ definition of what you consider to be a "grenade launcher"?


quote:

as are a couple dozen other weapons that are -not- RPG's


See link above. LAW and AT-4 are classified as RPGs in the article. Hand-held, check. Anti-tank, check. RPGs.

quote:

Tbh, the shaped charge variety of RPG-7 rounds is largely useless against most tanks and armored fighting vehicles, same with the LAW. I remember watching an M2 AFV shrug off several RPG hits on live TV early in the US invasion of Iraq. Back in the 60's they were ok vs light armor, but today they're really not much use in an anti-armor role. Great vs trucks, walls, bunkers, and infantry.


Actually, RPG-7s worked fine vs. Strykers, which is a modern afv.

The RPG line is up to RPG-30 now, I believe.

In 2007, a RPG-29 took out a British Challenger 2 MBT. That's one tough tank.

In 2008, a RPG-29 took out a M1.

Yes, the RPG-7 is pretty dated for most (not all, tho *cough* Stryker *cough* crappola *cough*) modern armor. But there's more than just the RPG-7. It's a whole family of Russian love for RPG-X. That main battle tanks can shrug off RPG-7s is one thing to say. It's quite another to say that they can shrug off RPGs in general. Well, that's just the Russian anti-tank weapon line. Include the other weapons indicated in the above link, and you'll probably find that modern RPGs fare pretty well against modern armor.

quote:

Insofar as all high velocity rounds are inately AP in nature, ap rounds are all over the place, the standard ammo for assault rifles everywhere.


If you're suggesting that HG expand the ammo types for assault rifles to include "normal", to represent "standard ball ammo - as they do with pistol ammunition - then yes. I agree. Given that there's only AP or OC ammo in HG, however - the AP ammo we've been arguing about isn't being represented. "proper" AP ammo should be able to cut through assault armour with relative ease. Something we don't see in HG.

quote:

You would think that (explosives are tightly controlled), but infact that is not the case. It is very easy to get or even make explosives.  That is not the case with the specialized core ammo I was describing.  It is not easy to make, or get.


It was one example of DJ being able to get "restricted" goods. I don't think it's a major point. I brought it up with other items he supplies, to show that he has access to military supply channels. I'm not going to argue it, since it's off topic.

As for your "hard to get, specialized ammo" - well, there's loads of vendors out there. It's turning up in the hands of wild eyed Jihadists. I don't think the facts support your case that AP ammo would be hideously difficult to get your hands on, as a mercenary or gun-runner.

quote:

Ever been to a massage parlor? Sure, you can get a normal massage, all above board. For a little extra you get the 'happy' massage.


Actually, I prefer straight-up brothels or independent workers. Generally higher quality of girls and there's no dispute over "services rendered". But that's my personal bias.

quote:

If you grease the right palms, have the right paperwork, then just like Victor Bout you keep talking about, you too can be driving home in a tank.


Your point is lost on me. You're talking about gun runners one minute, and the next you're talking about of entertaining businessmen with things that go boom. I don't see the connection, aside from the fact that arms are involved. Are you suggesting that the same people taking cash off the businessmen are the same people involved in the arms trade? I haven't heard of any of these customers of the Chinese entertainers, to be caught running guns, or trying to smuggle RPGs home in their bags. If that's your argument, back up your statement. Otherwise, it's irrelevant and only serves to cloud the issue.

< Message edited by LimeyBugger -- 1/20/2009 4:04:26 PM >

(in reply to Edgewise)
Post #: 30
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