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PC Editor - 12/4/2008 8:19:06 PM

Mad Russian

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Do you prefer to see a complicated editor that possibly only a few designers would use or a simple one that lot's of desingers would use?

While that seems an easy enough question it's not that basic.

A complicated editor can make the maps for the games that can include ANYTHING.

That comes with a cost. It comes with a more complex editor. Not that there haven't been tutorials made around the current editor and more especially the map maker.

A less complex editor can't make maps that can model ANYTHING. Is a basic set of choices which include things like 4 or 5 types of single story buildings, 4 or 5 types of 2 story buildings, 4 or 5 types of trees...that sort of thing.

That also comes with a cost. It doesn't give the same look and feel that the more complex editor would.

I play tactical wargames not for the graphics so much as game play.

Since that's the case with me I much prefer many more scenarios of a lesser graphics quality than fewer scenarios of a better graphics quality.

But that's my take on it. At the moment I don't have a machine that can use the map maker. I've probably done more CM scenarios than any other designer but one and I've yet to get a single map made of my own for PC.

That's not good IMO.

What I think might be a better direction to take the map maker is a better morph ability. The only consistant complaint I heard about CM maps is that the terrain looked too blocky in the squares. If the program morphed that into more irregular features I don't see where a CM style editor/map maker wouldn't work just fine in PC.

So, what are some other comments or ideas concerning the editor and very specifically the map maker? Here is your chance to tell Matrix what you want to see.

Good Hunting.

MR

Post #: 1

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 1:52:36 AM

Mobius

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I play games for fun and for a bit of a history lesson. Some part of it is to solve a tactical military problem. What I've learned from making maps with MapMaker is that real landform is part of knowing what actually was the situation as much as OOB or gun or tank data.

There is a pretty high cost in time and effort in making realistic terrain of actual battlefields.

Now I think Stridor could if he wanted to come up with an addon Quick Map Generator that sprinkles generic hills, fields, streams and buildings on a flat plate and call it a map. It won't be realistic terrain but it would be fast.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 2

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 2:53:47 AM

Mad Russian

Posts: 12138
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From: Texas
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I'm not talking about Quick Maps as something that is generated by the computer. Although CM had that.

What I'm talking about are designer made maps.

I've spent as long as 2 months making a CM map and as little as an hour. I can see no possible way that I can make a PC map with the process I see being used right now for PC in an hour. On the other hand I can see where the map that took me 2 months to do in CM would take me considerably less time using the PC map maker once you learn how to use it.

There have been easily 2,000+ custom designed scenarios made for CM by game designers. I think if you want that kind of an answer for PC then the map maker needs to have relatively simple functions. Let the hard part be in the details. Not having to know 2 or 3 different computer programs.

What is telling for me is reading Stidor's tutorial and seeing the comment that, "good, a few of you have figured out how to do this".

To me that comment is a death sentence for an easily usable map maker. Will SOME learn to use it. Yes, of course. No matter how complicated it is. Will that generate into thousands of maps and scenarios that propel the series into long term game play. I don't think so.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it....

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 12/5/2008 2:56:18 AM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 3

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 3:59:22 AM

Stridor

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quote:

Let the hard part be in the details. Not having to know 2 or 3 different computer programs.

To be fair all you need to know is MM and any single paint editor of your choice (including MS Paint).

As the creater of MM I don't really want to wade into this argument too much. What I will say is that MM is *not* the offical map editor of the PC series, it is a mod developed by a beta tester. I think that Matrix should take the feedback from threads like this and design their own effort in the future.
Regards

S.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 4

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 4:18:30 AM

Stridor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

What is telling for me is reading Stidor's tutorial and seeing the comment that, "good, a few of you have figured out how to do this".

I think this comment came up in the map maker beta thread which has encompassed a mod which was once very basic and without any documentation (version 0.01) all the way to the latest 0.9e with a now fully documented tutorial of its own.

Perhaps I made the tutorial too detailed, I wanted to get across a complete impression of what the MM could do. You don't need to use even 1/2 as many of the functions I described for simpler maps.

I think MR I may be able to help you with simpler map making by essentially removing some of the complexity (and hence flexibility) of map making by providing you with a set of pre-made templates. Essenially all you would need to do is to take the map template you like, draw your own map over the template example, load it up and the MM will build it all for you (it will take care of the textures, autogens, lights, etc). How does that sound?

A map template in this context would define the "look and feel" of the map (fields look a certain fixed way, forests another, roads another, etc). All you would need to do is follow a strict color guide.

There could even be a range of templates

Eg: Central Russia 1941 summer, Kharkov 1942 winter, etc, etc

How does that sound?

The really cool thing is that I wouldn't need to be involved at all. I would think guys like Mobius, Rick or Rob would be more that happy to provide templates of their own work and that way you could even pick and choose what you like. What is more is that you could do it all right now with 0.9e, you wouldn't need to wait for a code change to support it.

Regards

S.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 5

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 4:19:48 AM

Rick

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MR,

Actually, I disagree with the premise that mm is too complicted. If a person uses due diligence, and actually goes through the tutorial, a map can be made in a reasonable amount of time. (I think the tutorial is a key to this).

I think that the real time consuming part comes in when the person using MM starts to realize just how closely the map can reflect the actual ground, down to the bldg level. It tends to make perfectionists out of all of us, and before you know it we've invested a lot more time than anticipated.

It isn't a trivial program to use. But it's certainly in the realm of doable. I have pretty meager "modding" skills, but was able to go through the tutorial and end up with a fairly decent map (well, from my perspective anyway).

Could it be easier? I don tknow, perhaps. But often "dumbing down" a utility is difficult witout also reducing it's flexibilty. And that would not be desirable in my opinion. I've taken the tutorials, made a few edits, that reflect my thoughts on the process to follow. I think it might be good to have a little more guidance on using textures. I found my self spending a good afternoon, just experimenting with different textures, and different order of textures. But that was simply because I could, MM made it easy to do, so i lost track of time doing it.

Now having said that, I also would like to see more maps (along with TEMPLATES!) so I support whatever it takes to get folks doing that. I dont beleive MM has been officially "released" perhaps when it is we'll see more user made maps. I'd gladly volunteer to take Stridors tutorial and create a PDF manual if that would expedite the process.

Rick

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 6

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 3:08:58 PM

z1812

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From: Toronto Ontario
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Hi All,

I always appreciate the time consuming work done by those making mods and 3rd party programs for games.

The group working on Stridor's current map editior has done great work but most probably the result, as it stands now, would be too complicated and/or time consuming for the average player to enjoy using.

I agree with Stridor that Matrix should take the lead in developing a map editor.

It is intersting to note that, at the moment, there is still far more interest in the CMx1 titles than PCK. Matrix had a chance here to shine and it seems to me they have missed it. No concrete news concerning any new titles in the series and no information on the "before Xmas patch".

When people with talent, such as Mad Russian and Stridor, along with many others, are willing to support a game, it seems like an opportunity missed when the developer/publisher appears lost to the process.

It is always a shame when games with great potential only partially deliver.

Regards John

(in reply to Rick)

Post #: 7

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 3:37:29 PM

Rick

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Joined: 4/20/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi All,
...

I agree with Stridor that Matrix should take the lead in developing a map editor.

Yes - that seems reasonable - but then I'm glad Stridor was able to take this as far as he did.
...

quote:

It is always a shame when games with great potential only partially deliver.

Regards John

Well - I feel like I've already gotten more from PC:K than I had expected. When i purchased it, I knew it was the second in an EVOLVING system . I thought it was pretty clear that it was expected to be the final syte. The editing that came with the original PCK were actually able to do more than I had expected (being able to completely change a map except for topograhy for example.)

I think KOIS and Matrix has delivered more than they promised with this game. I'm only hoping that there is enough interest in the game series for it to be worthwhile for them to release the next game in series.

The editors that came with game are pretty easy to use (Scenario Editor espcially),
I had not expected to see a map editor until the next game in series was released! The MapMaker addon was an unexpected bonus.

Rick

(in reply to z1812)

Post #: 8

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 7:04:53 PM

invernomuto

Posts: 950
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stridor
I think MR I may be able to help you with simpler map making by essentially removing some of the complexity (and hence flexibility) of map making by providing you with a set of pre-made templates. Essenially all you would need to do is to take the map template you like, draw your own map over the template example, load it up and the MM will build it all for you (it will take care of the textures, autogens, lights, etc). How does that sound?

A map template in this context would define the "look and feel" of the map (fields look a certain fixed way, forests another, roads another, etc). All you would need to do is follow a strict color guide.

Great idea! A good compromise for those - like me - find too time consuming building a map from scratch with MM.

_____________________________

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Best AAR I've ever seen!!!

(in reply to Stridor)

Post #: 9

RE: PC Editor - 12/5/2008 10:30:00 PM

Rick

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I'd be more than happy to work with or help anyone who'd like to make maps for PC. I can provide step by step for your specific need, or work from a map sketch. I'm not an expert like some in here, but I'd be glad to help.

I'm going to try out this map template idea that Stridor mentioned and see if I can get something like that set up.

Rick

(in reply to invernomuto)

Post #: 10

RE: PC Editor - 12/6/2008 1:09:35 AM

Mad Russian

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From: Texas
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BUT if I understand this right, and I may very well not understand it, the map templates would only affect the suface terrain. How would you make changes to the height map with a template?

Good Hunting.

MR

(in reply to Rick)

Post #: 11

RE: PC Editor - 12/6/2008 1:12:22 AM

Rick

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Mapmaker has a fairly simple to use built in tool for creating, modifying a heightmap.

Rick

didnt mean to be so breif. MM has tools that let you "pull up" or "push down" an area. and yu can select different sizes of ares.

Also you can lever, or smooth an area - (two diffrent things)

Rick

< Message edited by Rick -- 12/6/2008 1:14:50 AM >

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 12

RE: PC Editor - 12/6/2008 1:20:08 AM

Mad Russian

Posts: 12138
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick

Mapmaker has a fairly simple to use built in tool for creating, modifying a heightmap.

Rick

didnt mean to be so breif. MM has tools that let you "pull up" or "push down" an area. and yu can select different sizes of ares.

Also you can lever, or smooth an area - (two diffrent things)

Rick

It might have when you can get the program to run. My OLD computer won't run MM.

Good Hunting.

MR

(in reply to Rick)

Post #: 13

RE: PC Editor - 12/6/2008 1:27:21 AM

Rick

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I posted a reply to MD in main forum, about how i got it to run. I was able to get it running on a pretty old tosh. laptop (4-5 yrs old). Although I've since cleaned it out and reloade fresh PC:K so I could test things on a clean install.

I know youve done a lot of CM scenarios, i ish there was some way I could hep get you going with the MM editor, or if I could help make maps for you.

Rick

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 14

RE: PC Editor - 12/13/2008 4:38:19 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 12138
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: online

Notice that this thread is about the PC Editor...that is not the exclusive domain of the map editor.

The scenario OOB editor will be an integral part of the overall PC editor.

I still want to see KISS. For the most part the scenario editor at the moment does a good job of allowing you to do the scenario OOB in very little time with very little problems.

What I think is missing in the scenario editor is, well, what's missing.

As the scenario designer I want to determine the rest of the story.

Like the ammo load outs for EVERYTHING. How is it that I can go all way down to selecting the target and the ammo for a unit during game play but have no say in what kind of ammo or the amount that unit gets when making the battle. How are you ever supposed to balance the scenario with those kind of loose controls?

The morale for each individual unit on the map. I want to determine what their state of mind is at the start of the battle. I would really like a fanatical setting for units such as the Russians and SS.

The OOB needs to be filled out with the missing units. Things like recon platoons, etc....

The ability to accept or reject that a particular leader can call for indirect fire. Not every leader, especially Soviet ones could call for fire. There was a definite chain of command for this. I'd like to be able to turn that ability on and off for every leader.

I'd like to see three briefings. An overall briefing and then one for each nationality. It's just fine to read the entireb briefing if you are playing the computer. It's not so great when you are playing a gamer that gets to read your instructions the same as you do.

I would like the ability to set the number of game turns as well has have the game ending determined as it is now.

The scenario editor should be as all inclusive as possible. This will give the scenario designers the ability to make endless combat situations for PC. There are more ideas that I'll add as I remember them but this is a start and should get discussion going on what others would like to find in the editor.

Good Hunting.

MR

(in reply to Rick)

Post #: 15

RE: PC Editor - 12/13/2008 8:10:30 PM

Stridor

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Joined: 9/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Notice that this thread is about the PC Editor...that is not the exclusive domain of the map editor.

The scenario OOB editor will be an integral part of the overall PC editor.

I still want to see KISS. For the most part the scenario editor at the moment does a good job of allowing you to do the scenario OOB in very little time with very little problems.

What I think is missing in the scenario editor is, well, what's missing.

As the scenario designer I want to determine the rest of the story.

Like the ammo load outs for EVERYTHING. How is it that I can go all way down to selecting the target and the ammo for a unit during game play but have no say in what kind of ammo or the amount that unit gets when making the battle. How are you ever supposed to balance the scenario with those kind of loose controls?

The morale for each individual unit on the map. I want to determine what their state of mind is at the start of the battle. I would really like a fanatical setting for units such as the Russians and SS.

The OOB needs to be filled out with the missing units. Things like recon platoons, etc....

The ability to accept or reject that a particular leader can call for indirect fire. Not every leader, especially Soviet ones could call for fire. There was a definite chain of command for this. I'd like to be able to turn that ability on and off for every leader.

I'd like to see three briefings. An overall briefing and then one for each nationality. It's just fine to read the entireb briefing if you are playing the computer. It's not so great when you are playing a gamer that gets to read your instructions the same as you do.

I would like the ability to set the number of game turns as well has have the game ending determined as it is now.

The scenario editor should be as all inclusive as possible. This will give the scenario designers the ability to make endless combat situations for PC. There are more ideas that I'll add as I remember them but this is a start and should get discussion going on what others would like to find in the editor.

Good Hunting.

MR�

They are all good ideas.

None of them are supported in the PCK game system right now.

When they do the scenario editor will support them.

Regards

S.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 16

RE: PC Editor - 12/13/2008 9:43:03 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 12138
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stridor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Notice that this thread is about the PC Editor...that is not the exclusive domain of the map editor.

The scenario OOB editor will be an integral part of the overall PC editor.

I still want to see KISS. For the most part the scenario editor at the moment does a good job of allowing you to do the scenario OOB in very little time with very little problems.

What I think is missing in the scenario editor is, well, what's missing.

As the scenario designer I want to determine the rest of the story.

Like the ammo load outs for EVERYTHING. How is it that I can go all way down to selecting the target and the ammo for a unit during game play but have no say in what kind of ammo or the amount that unit gets when making the battle. How are you ever supposed to balance the scenario with those kind of loose controls?

The morale for each individual unit on the map. I want to determine what their state of mind is at the start of the battle. I would really like a fanatical setting for units such as the Russians and SS.

The OOB needs to be filled out with the missing units. Things like recon platoons, etc....

The ability to accept or reject that a particular leader can call for indirect fire. Not every leader, especially Soviet ones could call for fire. There was a definite chain of command for this. I'd like to be able to turn that ability on and off for every leader.

I'd like to see three briefings. An overall briefing and then one for each nationality. It's just fine to read the entireb briefing if you are playing the computer. It's not so great when you are playing a gamer that gets to read your instructions the same as you do.

I would like the ability to set the number of game turns as well has have the game ending determined as it is now.

The scenario editor should be as all inclusive as possible. This will give the scenario designers the ability to make endless combat situations for PC. There are more ideas that I'll add as I remember them but this is a start and should get discussion going on what others would like to find in the editor.

Good Hunting.

MR�

They are all good ideas.

None of them are supported in the PCK game system right now.

When they do the scenario editor will support them.

Regards

S.

This game sets ammo load out figures somehow.

Good Hunting.

MR

(in reply to Stridor)

Post #: 17

RE: PC Editor - 12/13/2008 9:57:23 PM

Mobius

Posts: 8837
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
This game sets ammo load out figures somehow.

No it doesn't. It has a chance of running out of selected ammo.

But a good idea thread is best served on the PCK general forum so more could chime in.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 18