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Guns inside buildings - 12/1/2008 10:24:24 AM   
TheTomDude


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Hello

I asked myself why it is not possible to place guns inside building like it was done during WW2. At least PAK40 and smaller should be placeable inside buildings at the beginning of a round. It was possible in a few Mods for CC5.
Is this patchable ? That would be great.

I would always have loved to see tanks going through buildings (or hiding inside buildings for an ambush), like it was possible in Steel Panthers. Not sure if the code allows this.
But that's maybe an idea for a mod, not a patch, right?

Post #: 1
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/1/2008 10:53:48 AM   
berndn

 

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I can place smaller guns in buildings. It depends on the gun size and the place inside the building and maybe some map coding ?
Funniest was placing one of the smaller guns in a steeple (4 floor ).

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Post #: 2
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/1/2008 12:13:20 PM   
TheTomDude


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quote:

ORIGINAL: berndn

I can place smaller guns in buildings. It depends on the gun size and the place inside the building and maybe some map coding ?
Funniest was placing one of the smaller guns in a steeple (4 floor ).



Only tried it a few times with PAK38 and 40 and it didn't work. Will have to try out more then. Thx

(in reply to berndn)
Post #: 3
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/1/2008 1:25:52 PM   
Pzt_Serk


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the US 57 mm gun can be placed in buildings depending of the interior walls. IIRC, placing a gun in a building will always be at ground level, no matter how many floor there is, so it might be tricky when testing LOS at deploy.

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Post #: 4
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/1/2008 1:44:06 PM   
squadleader_id


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AFAIK, since units are automatically considered to be occupying the top level of multi-level buildings...you can only place guns on level 1 buildings.
This was the general rule for CC5 and most mods...CMIIW.
You can place guns on the 4th floor of buildings, Bernd?


_____________________________


http://www.moddb.com/mods/cc5-battle-of-surabaya-1945

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Post #: 5
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/1/2008 2:44:28 PM   
berndn

 

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I did it. I'm playing as allied and will report the map where it's possible. Screenshots with printscreen key or do I need an external program ?

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Post #: 6
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/1/2008 3:34:05 PM   
TheReal_Pak40

 

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TomDude,

A Pak40 is a rather large gun. It's not going to fit through your average door. There's really no way to put it inside unless you blow a hole through the wall, which I'm sure happened, but then there would have to some major code re-write to allow this to happen in CC.

I would like to have AT guns in general be harder to spot and kill. A well camouflaged defense would be the norm for AT guns. This should make them hard to spot, even after the first shot. You might see a puff of smoke but spotting the actual gun should harder, especially under a tree line. If this was done in the game then we wouldn't feel the need to put AT guns inside buildings so much.

(in reply to TheTomDude)
Post #: 7
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/1/2008 9:08:39 PM   
Platoon_Michael


Posts: 1032
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I use UOSU for a screenshot program.
I'd like to see that screenshot.
I tried putting a mortor crew on one of the 4 story steeples that was destroyed (no roof) and the team wouldnt fire.
The reason said "in house"

< Message edited by Platoon_Michael -- 12/1/2008 9:13:13 PM >

(in reply to TheReal_Pak40)
Post #: 8
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 12:12:12 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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1) yeah, true. I don't expect 57mm guns to do anything at all in their lifetime, i only wish their sad lifespan come be slightly increased.
(The average lifespan of a 57mm gun in WaR after firing its first shot is something crazy like 5.7 seconds. lol)

I agree with pak40, they should be modelled to more accurately reflect well-concealed firing spots. So let the poor gun shoot like 3 or 4 more rounds before it bites the dust. ALSO, it would be really cool if i could detach the AT crew from the gun at will. So use the gun, abandon it, go hide in a house, and come back later and re-use the gun. This would make choosing AT guns more worthwhile.

2) maybe i just never got this, but does anyone ever sometimes feel like the starting position for a unit is one soldier away from being perfect? All the soldiers are well placed, inside the house, except one is off somewhere you don't want it. Then you play tug-of-war with the computer to try to get it just right and it never does.  Can we add the ability to move individual soldiers around?

3) Its really hard for me to guess when a unit placed in the snow is going to dig in or not. I am getting better at it, but can there be a way to let me know before battle begins whether the unit will dig in, or just lie there and get torn up at the start?

4) Related to point#2, when i move a unit into a building during the actual battle, its such a struggle to get all the right men in place along the windows. Can we possibly move individual units?


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Post #: 9
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 12:40:43 AM   
squadleader_id


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crushingleeek

1) yeah, true. I don't expect 57mm guns to do anything at all in their lifetime, i only wish their sad lifespan come be slightly increased.
(The average lifespan of a 57mm gun in WaR after firing its first shot is something crazy like 5.7 seconds. lol)

I agree with pak40, they should be modelled to more accurately reflect well-concealed firing spots. So let the poor gun shoot like 3 or 4 more rounds before it bites the dust. ALSO, it would be really cool if i could detach the AT crew from the gun at will. So use the gun, abandon it, go hide in a house, and come back later and re-use the gun. This would make choosing AT guns more worthwhile.



Put AT guns on ambush...then if a target comes into LOS...give them the defend order.
They will last longer (ie: remain hidden).
If you manually give the ATG fire orders...the ATG will be spotted right away.

In CCWAR...be careful when giving ATGs the defend order...make sure there are no nearby enemy infantry or the crew will start shooting at nearby infantry using rifles giving away their position


_____________________________


http://www.moddb.com/mods/cc5-battle-of-surabaya-1945

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Post #: 10
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 1:10:14 AM   
Platoon_Michael


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quote:

2) maybe i just never got this, but does anyone ever sometimes feel like the starting position for a unit is one soldier away from being perfect? All the soldiers are well placed, inside the house, except one is off somewhere you don't want it. Then you play tug-of-war with the computer to try to get it just right and it never does. Can we add the ability to move individual soldiers around?


Keep clicking untill you find said soldier using the popup window that shows the soldier (F7 key)
then relocate him.When having the same problem during deployment find the leader and move him,it changes the grouping a lot better sometimes.

Same for #4 but harder when shot at.

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 11
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 3:44:22 AM   
TheReal_Pak40

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Put AT guns on ambush...then if a target comes into LOS...give them the defend order.
They will last longer (ie: remain hidden).
If you manually give the ATG fire orders...the ATG will be spotted right away.


You think we don't already do this? Come on, give us some credit, we're not newbies to CC.

our point is that even you do above said actions, your AT gun will likely get off 1, maybe 2 rounds before it is KO'd. Mortars and armored vehicles suddenly have an uncanny accuracy when firing at an AT gun. I see tanks missing each other from 200 yards all the time in this game but as soon as a tank fires at an AT gun - boom, almost guaranteed hit and it doesn't matter if you gun is dug in or in a gun pit or trench.

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Post #: 12
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 3:58:52 AM   
Pzt_Serk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

AFAIK, since units are automatically considered to be occupying the top level of multi-level buildings...you can only place guns on level 1 buildings.
This was the general rule for CC5 and most mods...CMIIW.
You can place guns on the 4th floor of buildings, Bernd?



Squadleader,

it is always possible to place small ATG's in building with 3 or 4 floors. But they will be considered positioned at ground level with the according los. If you have inafantry at the same position, you will have the LOS from 4rth floor but not with the gun. Bring some 57mm atg' to the grufflenge battle and test it out.

Serk.

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 13
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 4:01:31 AM   
TheReal_Pak40

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crushingleeek

2) maybe i just never got this, but does anyone ever sometimes feel like the starting position for a unit is one soldier away from being perfect? All the soldiers are well placed, inside the house, except one is off somewhere you don't want it. Then you play tug-of-war with the computer to try to get it just right and it never does.  Can we add the ability to move individual soldiers around?


Well, usually this is because there's a limited amount of window space(or at least that's how I justify it). It's kind of hard having six soldiers firing out of two windows. But, usually I am able drag and drop and get a different placement.

Also, when setting up infantry in buildings at the beginning, manually place them on ambush mode, then rotate them to defend the desired side of the building and they will automatically be replaced to the appropriate side of the building.


quote:


3) Its really hard for me to guess when a unit placed in the snow is going to dig in or not. I am getting better at it, but can there be a way to let me know before battle begins whether the unit will dig in, or just lie there and get torn up at the start?


I think I read about this in the manual. If a unit is "defending" then they will be dug in. In operation or campaign mode, a unit is considered defending if it spent the previous turn on that map without being attacked. (I think). In any case, I think once you go from the battle force screen it will flash a message with one of 6 possibilities: Axis attack, allies attack, allies defend, axis defend, meeting engagement, or battle continues.

let's say you're defending as allies on the 1st turn of the campaign on map "X". You will start this battle dug in; but you fight your opponent to a standstill where neither of you is routed or destroyed. On the next turn, you both will be fighting on the same map but you will get the "battle continues" message before deployment and you will not be dug in this time.

anyway, I think I have this correct. Maybe someone else can clarify or confirm.

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 14
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 4:45:29 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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quote:

Well, usually this is because there's a limited amount of window space(or at least that's how I justify it). It's kind of hard having six soldiers firing out of two windows. But, usually I am able drag and drop and get a different placement.


That's very reasonable logic. I just wish I could manually put the soldiers that "can't see" at the next available window for max firepower.

quote:

Also, when setting up infantry in buildings at the beginning, manually place them on ambush mode, then rotate them to defend the desired side of the building and they will automatically be replaced to the appropriate side of the building.


Yes, I do have this strategy down; I'm just being a little more picky. I'd like to control where every BAR/.30cal/mg42/bazooka/panzerschrek is without compromising the fire of riflemen.

(in reply to TheReal_Pak40)
Post #: 15
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 4:52:30 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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quote:

I think I read about this in the manual. If a unit is "defending" then they will be dug in. In operation or campaign mode, a unit is considered defending if it spent the previous turn on that map without being attacked. (I think). In any case, I think once you go from the battle force screen it will flash a message with one of 6 possibilities: Axis attack, allies attack, allies defend, axis defend, meeting engagement, or battle continues.



Thanks for the explanation. I think I'm asking a slightly different question though; I know which scenarios i am allowed to dig in. I am just less certain, for example, if I place my unit in a forest, near a steep slope, or near a road, or near brush, sometimes the unit will not dig in. I am assuming this is because some of the soldiers are situated on terrains that are not "dig-in-able". This kind of goes back to my wish to move individual soldiers. Haven't you ever placed a rifle squad in a concealed forest on a map you are defending, (and put them on ambush or defend), only to find when you start the battle, that they didn't dig in?


(in reply to TheReal_Pak40)
Post #: 16
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 4:55:05 AM   
Pzt_Serk


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yeah I see what you mean. I'm usually looking for the opposite, trying to position my bazooka team and ATG's in places i'm sure they wont dig in since the trench and gun pits only reveal their position and rendering them useless, especially gun pits.

Also, matrix should take alook at some large permanent gun pits like in meyerode that can't accept ATG's, not even a 57mm ATG.

< Message edited by Pzt_Serk -- 12/2/2008 4:56:40 AM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 5:04:23 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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quote:

yeah I see what you mean. I'm usually looking for the opposite, trying to position my bazooka team and ATG's in places i'm sure they wont dig in since the trench and gun pits only reveal their position and rendering them useless, especially gun pits.


for your problem, you could just set your units up, place a "Crawl" order for them to somewhere very close to where you have set them up. this initial crawl order should prevent them from digging in, i think.

But I need to know that my boys will hide in a trench!!

(in reply to Pzt_Serk)
Post #: 18
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 5:09:35 AM   
Pzt_Serk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crushingleeek

quote:

yeah I see what you mean. I'm usually looking for the opposite, trying to position my bazooka team and ATG's in places i'm sure they wont dig in since the trench and gun pits only reveal their position and rendering them useless, especially gun pits.


for your problem, you could just set your units up, place a "Crawl" order for them to somewhere very close to where you have set them up. this initial crawl order should prevent them from digging in, i think.

But I need to know that my boys will hide in a trench!!


Just tried that out, does not seem to work.

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 19
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 5:12:08 AM   
squadleader_id


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheReal_Pak40

quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Put AT guns on ambush...then if a target comes into LOS...give them the defend order.
They will last longer (ie: remain hidden).
If you manually give the ATG fire orders...the ATG will be spotted right away.


You think we don't already do this? Come on, give us some credit, we're not newbies to CC.

our point is that even you do above said actions, your AT gun will likely get off 1, maybe 2 rounds before it is KO'd. Mortars and armored vehicles suddenly have an uncanny accuracy when firing at an AT gun. I see tanks missing each other from 200 yards all the time in this game but as soon as a tank fires at an AT gun - boom, almost guaranteed hit and it doesn't matter if you gun is dug in or in a gun pit or trench.




Sorry ...from your description...I just guessed that you're firing ATGs manually.
Well concealed ATGs set on defend should not be discovered and destroyed so easily. Are you deploying your ATGs in open fields?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pzt_Serk


quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

AFAIK, since units are automatically considered to be occupying the top level of multi-level buildings...you can only place guns on level 1 buildings.
This was the general rule for CC5 and most mods...CMIIW.
You can place guns on the 4th floor of buildings, Bernd?



Squadleader,

it is always possible to place small ATG's in building with 3 or 4 floors. But they will be considered positioned at ground level with the according los. If you have inafantry at the same position, you will have the LOS from 4rth floor but not with the gun. Bring some 57mm atg' to the grufflenge battle and test it out.

Serk.


Yup! Sorry, I stand corrected...
Actually you can do this also in stock CC5 and CC4.
I guess I missed this detail 'cause I'm just not a fan of small ATGs...AT Infantry is more useful than small ATGs IMO

(in reply to Pzt_Serk)
Post #: 20
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 5:28:41 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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quote:

Just tried that out, does not seem to work.


Sorry.

Ok cool, we can both try to grab people's attention about the issue of how to control DEFINITIVELY whether a unit, as part of the country defending the map, will dig in or not.


quote:

 
Well concealed ATGs set on defend should not be discovered and destroyed so easily. Are you deploying your ATGs in open fields?


I'm of the camp that says AT guns should be well-hidden...so no. anything else for a 57mm is blatant suicide. actually anything for a 57 is suicide.

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Post #: 21
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/2/2008 11:45:42 PM   
Senior Drill


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From: Quantico
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A couple of notes on Digging In and AT gun placement.

Units will begin the Morning turn, or first turn of a Day dug in, if the BG was on that map the previous turn, and not in contact - the previous battle, if any, left them in sole control of the map.  In all other cases, they will not be dug in at the start of the battle.  I'm also about 90% certain that a team can dig in on mixed elements if the team leader, identified by the colored circle, is on an element tile that allows digging in.   I hope that clarifies things....somewhat.

AT Guns have a Vehicle Size in the Vehicles.txt file.  This data "size", and not the graphic that we can see, tells the game engine if a gun can fit into a buildiing or not.  The more empty floor space (no coded interior walls or other clutter), the better a gun can fit.  It is a function of the Vehicles.txt file Vehcile Size column and the map's Elements coding.  The game engine only sees vehicles in terms of 2 meter square element tiles and the vehicle size is always square.  A rectangular tank is seen by the game as a square block, not the long, skinny picture that we see.  The same holds for AT guns.  As far as the game engine is concerned, it is as wide as it is long, as set in the Vehicles.txt file.

A few years ago I did a CC mod that adjusted both the AT gun sizes and the Elements.txt file treatment of AT Gun movement.  In the original CC
elements, almost all, if not all building elements are impassible to AT guns so that if an AT gun starts the battle inside a building, it stays inside the building, even if that building is an aircraft hanger or factory with very wide, open doors.  There is a magical barrier that keeps AT guns from crossing a football field wide opening.  That was easy to change on an element by element basis and AT guns could be rolled out through those openings.

Taking it one step further, I went with the premise that if those soldiers could get that gun in the building before the battle, they should damn well be able to get it out again during the battle.  After all, the hole in the wall should still be there, right?  So I adjusted the properties of wood and stone walls, doors and windows to allow AT guns to pass through them at a very, very slow rate such that it took several minutes to get a gun out of a building.  Most of the time it wasn't worth the effort, as the battle was now far down the road, or they got pants with the barrel pointing the wrong way, but on occasion, it helped to save or even win the day.

Neil N has seen that mod (part of the No-Walks-Through-Walls elements mod).  Some of that I did get into CoI, but I don't know what, if any got carried through to WaR.  The point is, both the game size of the guns and the movement can be modded.  Give it a go, if you want!  As has been pointed out many time before, if you come up with a better solution, it may get incorporated in a patch or new release.  At the least, you will have a mod that suits your interpertation.

And of course, the obligatory nag about modding things like the Elements.txt file or other of the Data\Base files:  In H2H play, the Joiner plays with the Host's data files.  It is always good form to make your opponent completely aware of each and every moddification to the data files that you have done.  Anything less is cheating.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 22
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/3/2008 2:14:05 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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This is my problem with digging in:

Before deployment




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 23
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/3/2008 2:15:33 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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AFTER DEPLOYMENT:

see rogue squad?







Attachment (1)

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Post #: 24
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/3/2008 2:17:30 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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The leader of that squad was on "Light snowy field" terrain. According to Sr. (thanks for the reply btw), that should be enough for that squad to dig in.
Why was this team too lazy to dig in?

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 25
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/3/2008 2:34:05 AM   
Senior Drill


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In this particular instance, I believe that the leader of that squad was probably on a Snowy Bush tile, rather than a Light Snowy Field tile. It is darn near impossible to get a terrain read directly under a soldier sprite without moving the team off the location, taking the reading and moving the team back. I doubt that the quadruple I formation had an effect, but that might have.

Are you positive that the leader was not on a non-entrenchable tile? Actually, I think you had a remarkable degree of luck to get that many teams to entrench in that terrain field unless you micro managed each placement. Eight out of nine was a good Vegas run (the other four were 100% gimmes).

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

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Post #: 26
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/3/2008 2:47:25 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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Thanks. The squad leader, to me, seems like he's on light snowy field (his torso at least). You might be right though, adjacent to him are "snowy brush" and "big conifer tree."

I might go make the elements file amenable to digging in in those terrains for ease of digging in. Why wouldn't a soldier be able to dig-in brush? These are trained killers!

(in reply to Senior Drill)
Post #: 27
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/3/2008 2:56:18 AM   
Neil N

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crushingleeek

Thanks. The squad leader, to me, seems like he's on light snowy field (his torso at least). You might be right though, adjacent to him are "snowy brush" and "big conifer tree."

I might go make the elements file amenable to digging in in those terrains for ease of digging in. Why wouldn't a soldier be able to dig-in brush? These are trained killers!


The ground was frozen and not exactly the best for digging in....although I'm not sure that was taken into account in the elements file...or, maybe it was

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Post #: 28
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/3/2008 3:03:02 AM   
crushingleeek

 

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Very Nice. Thanks. I just made it possible to dig-in to brush. Makes digging in much more reliable.

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Post #: 29
RE: Guns inside buildings - 12/3/2008 3:04:48 AM   
Senior Drill


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From: Quantico
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In the Ardennes, most of the Ami troops were virgin, amature trained killers.....as well as cooks, mechanics, clerks, supply pukes and other assorted REMFs press ganged into trying to be line infantry.

Sure, mod it. Balance game play, document and show your work and testing, and then make your case to the Ohm Watt Amps (the powers that be) to have it considered for updates, patches or whatever. Just remember the caveat about using it H2H on the unaware.

_____________________________

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

(in reply to crushingleeek)
Post #: 30
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