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OB Smoke? - 11/13/2008 6:05:04 PM   
Krasny

 

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How do I get OB mortars / arty to fire smoke?

Thanks.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/13/2008 6:53:11 PM   
Andrew Williams


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That is not an option.


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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/13/2008 11:53:56 PM   
Krasny

 

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Why in heavens name not?

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/14/2008 3:10:56 PM   
Perturabo


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Because that is not an option.

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People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/14/2008 3:31:07 PM   
Krasny

 

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Yeah, I know it's not an option, because of my mystical powers of being able to read.

But WHY is it not an option.

Is it going to be an option in future patches? If not why not?

Smoke is a fairly common feature of OBA, it's not an rare thing in WW2, all sides used it. A lot.

Lack of OB smoke is a major weakness of the game, and should be fairly easy to correct in a future patch.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/14/2008 6:54:27 PM   
Andrew Williams


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Smoke has nebver been an Off board option.

There is ample opportunity to place smoke with on board assets.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/14/2008 7:16:33 PM   
Krasny

 

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quote:

Smoke has nebver been an Off board option.


That's a stupid answer and you know it is.

Just because something has never happened, doesn't mean it should never happen.

Something as fundamental as OB smoke should be in the game.

I'm really astonished I was the first person to note such a glaring error.

It's not like I'm asking for 3D graphics.

I would have thought it was a matter of honour to get the game right, rather than utter stupid corporate platitudes.

quote:

There is ample opportunity to place smoke with on board assets.


Well so what. There are anti-tank guns in the game, why bother with Panzerschrecks and Bazookas.

OB smoke was such a common tactical asset. To exclude it frome WAR is crass, nonsensical and lazy.

I paid £28 for this game and I already own the original. I expect more than a new lick of paint



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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/14/2008 7:29:02 PM   
Andrew Williams


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quote:

Something as fundamental as OB smoke should be in the game.

I'm really astonished I was the first person to note such a glaring error.


I think that answers your question after 11 years of Close Combat.

In a game on such a small scale as WaR Off board smoke is not required.

Even the Off Board artillery is limited for the same reason.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/15/2008 11:06:34 AM   
Krasny

 

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Yes, it seems I am wrong, I must bow to your superior wisdom and knowlwdge of WW2.

No wait!

It seems every other computer game of a similar scale has OB smoke, EG. Combat Mission, also every board game of a similar scale has OB smoke, EG. Advanced Squad Leader (a game noted for it's attention to detail).

So are you saying these games were designed by morons?

Also it has to be noted that OB artillery generally also fired smoke rounds as well as HE. So if you have access to OB artillery, you are likely to have access to smoke, given it's the same guns firing.

Nice try Andy, but the Daddy knows best argument does not work well on adults.

< Message edited by Krasny -- 11/15/2008 11:07:51 AM >


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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/15/2008 4:15:37 PM   
LitFuel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

Lack of OB smoke is a major weakness of the game, and should be fairly easy to correct in a future patch.


Well maybe if you didn't act like a child who hasn't gotten his way you he wouldn't have to use that approach...lol. This statement is just ridiculous. You lost all credibility after that.

It's funny this game has managed to survive since 96 with this "major weakness" ...me thinks you just don't know how to use your smoke effectively within the game. It's part of tyhe fun of the game not a hinderence...and he's right within the scope of this game and style it works just fine. The examples you gave are really not the same and you know it...weak try there.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/15/2008 4:16:09 PM   
Tejszd

 

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Right, wrong or otherwise off board smoke support has never been included in any CC game.

It might be a nice addition but with smoke available via individual teams, mortars and tanks you do still have lots of options to get smoke.

If they are looking to add things it is something that they could have on the list to be considered but I personally would like a lot of other things before OB smoke.


< Message edited by Tejszd -- 11/15/2008 4:17:58 PM >

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/16/2008 11:11:17 AM   
samarobriva

 

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If you plan to do a massive attack with a smoke cover then change your third platoon with three mortar teams. You'll get a much better effect but you won't get this as this is an OB arty smoke


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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/16/2008 11:30:59 AM   
Krasny

 

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That's a gamey work around.

I wonder what the cause of this blinkered uber-conservatism amongst CC fans is?

The lack of OB smoke in CC, is fundamentally unrealistic. Surely, if it's in the war, it should be in the game. It would not even be too difficult to implement

If every wargame designer took such a conservative approach, we would still be playing chess, saying things like [deep south accent]"Naw me an' Skeeter dun hold wi them noo fangled hexagons."[/deep south accent]



< Message edited by Krasny -- 11/16/2008 11:33:06 AM >


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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/16/2008 12:45:46 PM   
Perturabo


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Taking in account that the incomplete company that the player leads in battle is the most most important incomplete company whose realistic duel with the enemy incomplete company will decide the fate of whole battalion/regimental combat team/whatever, it should be able to get arty smoke on attack.
Especially that the attacks in CC4-5 are done with the classic 1:1 local superiority.


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People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/16/2008 1:36:58 PM   
Stwa


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[shaking head back and forth]

I keep staring at this thread, and I have come up with several words you could just subtitute in for "smoke" above. I just don't have the guts to post em.



< Message edited by Stwa -- 11/16/2008 1:37:19 PM >

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/16/2008 4:23:19 PM   
samarobriva

 

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It could be über conservative from your point of view. But it can be also a very pragmatic point of view. The battlefield is very limited Off board artillery is so massive on a larger scale.
Some questions may come up like : is there any smoke shells available ? How is the weather today ? What about the wind ? Artillery accuracy ? Smoke time length ?
How are you going to manage your teams through a large smoke cloud ?
And even more questions and arguing....

quote:

[deep south accent]"Naw me an' Skeeter dun hold wi them noo fangled hexagons."[/deep south accent]


And please do not forget that people may not be living in the usa; sometimes a wordplay could be difficult to get


< Message edited by samarobriva -- 11/16/2008 9:25:17 PM >

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 3:11:47 AM   
Perturabo


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Let's not forget that the Warmaster himself commands in every single battle. He assigns fire support to his units and he can get as much smoke as he wants.


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People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 11:09:16 AM   
Platoon_Michael


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I'm curious as to when I drop enough smoke in/on and around a tank that it still has the ability to shoot my troops?
Seems like it nevers hinder there sight.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 11:40:34 AM   
samarobriva

 

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When you believe that something is coming, are you standing still waiting for it, or do you prepare yourself to 'welcome' it ?

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 11:50:20 AM   
Krasny

 

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quote:

It could be über conservative from your point of view. But it can be also a very pragmatic point of view. The battlefield is very limited Off board artillery is so massive on a larger scale. Some questions may come up like : is there any smoke shells available ? How is the weather today ? What about the wind ? Artillery accuracy ? Smoke time length ? How are you going to manage your teams through a large smoke cloud ? And even more questions and arguing.... quote:[deep south accent]"Naw me an' Skeeter dun hold wi them noo fangled hexagons."[/deep south accent] And please do not forget that people may not be living in the usa; sometimes a wordplay could be difficult to get


First up, I think, since nobody has contraticted me, I can conclude that the total absence of OB smoke is unrealistic.

People seem to prefer work arounds and fudging. Fair enough.

Had I known WAR was a game designed by the Amish for the Amish, I would not have bought it.

Making lame excuses why OB smoke isn't in the game is, well, lame. The same concerns would be applied to on board smoke.

CC used to be a cutting edge game, I remember be so thrilled when it came out. Now it seems fans of the game have developed a bunker mentality, and are seemingly oblivious to the arguments of reason. But as Martin Luther said, "Reason is Satan's whore."

Lastly, American culture is so widely disseminated, even Aboriginal tribes people would get it.



< Message edited by Krasny -- 11/17/2008 11:51:44 AM >


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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 2:20:42 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

CC used to be a cutting edge game, I remember be so thrilled when it came out.

It used to. Then there was CC2, CC3, CC4 and CC5 with only minor changes to tactical gameplay (and these were mainly interface changes) and tons of changes to campaign.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

Now it seems fans of the game have developed a bunker mentality, and are seemingly oblivious to the arguments of reason.

That's because CC is no longer a mere tactical wargame. It's an operational wargame where tactical combat isn't really important. It's the strategic layer that is most important and deserves most improvements because it adds depth to the series. I'm pretty sure, that everyone agrees that it's better to dedicate limited resources to improving the strategic combat instead of adding a new tool to something that is just an equivalent of a dice roll on strategic map.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 11/17/2008 2:21:54 PM >


_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Krasny)
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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 4:56:17 PM   
Tejszd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoon_Michael

I'm curious as to when I drop enough smoke in/on and around a tank that it still has the ability to shoot my troops?
Seems like it nevers hinder there sight.


AI and players can fire through smoke and will kill troops. The odds of hitting are/should be reduced as an individual soldier/vehicle can not be targeted but just an area to fire into.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 5:23:50 PM   
Tejszd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

quote:

It could be über conservative from your point of view. But it can be also a very pragmatic point of view. The battlefield is very limited Off board artillery is so massive on a larger scale. Some questions may come up like : is there any smoke shells available ? How is the weather today ? What about the wind ? Artillery accuracy ? Smoke time length ? How are you going to manage your teams through a large smoke cloud ? And even more questions and arguing.... quote:[deep south accent]"Naw me an' Skeeter dun hold wi them noo fangled hexagons."[/deep south accent] And please do not forget that people may not be living in the usa; sometimes a wordplay could be difficult to get


First up, I think, since nobody has contraticted me, I can conclude that the total absence of OB smoke is unrealistic.


It probably is a realistic change and would be a good enhancement to the game. Though because of the other smoke options available I would prefer the developers add other things before this (AA units that can protect the battlefield during a battle, air interdiction on the strat map, vehicles carrying troops, etc.), but everyone will have their own preferred order for enhancements. Given that the attacker in CC usually doesn’t have a numerical advantage as was previously mentioned maybe it should be higher up my wishlist….

quote:


People seem to prefer work arounds and fudging. Fair enough.

Had I known WAR was a game designed by the Amish for the Amish, I would not have bought it.

Making lame excuses why OB smoke isn't in the game is, well, lame. The same concerns would be applied to on board smoke.

CC used to be a cutting edge game, I remember be so thrilled when it came out. Now it seems fans of the game have developed a bunker mentality, and are seemingly oblivious to the arguments of reason. But as Martin Luther said, "Reason is Satan's whore."

Lastly, American culture is so widely disseminated, even Aboriginal tribes people would get it.


You are free to have your own opinion but I do not share it. All strategy and wargames have to pick and choose what to implement and how best to implement stuff. So I do not think there are any perfect ones out there. I'm surprised that this one thing wrecks the game for you. Keep asking and lobbying others, if enough people want this over other things it could be added in patch or a follow up game….

As for CC the last totally new retail version was CC5 (and it didn’t change tons of things from CC4) and that was back in 2000. So CC has fallen behind some of today’s newer releases in some areas. On some of the other CC sites, and maybe in the other CC forums here at Matrix, the developers have said the plan was to do the re-release to raise capital to put into a new version down the road. With WAR being the 3rd re-release there is only 2 more to go….


< Message edited by Tejszd -- 11/17/2008 5:24:11 PM >

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 8:48:54 PM   
dutch08

 

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This game delivered what was advertised. They said it was a re-release of CC4 that worked on modern computers with some updated graphics and campaign. I'm happy with that.

If you expected more than what they promised, that's on you. And if they don't deliver what they hype, that's on them. But I think Matrix did everything pretty damned fairly and honestly with this release.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 8:59:17 PM   
berndn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoon_Michael

I'm curious as to when I drop enough smoke in/on and around a tank that it still has the ability to shoot my troops?
Seems like it nevers hinder there sight.


AI and players can fire through smoke and will kill troops. The odds of hitting are/should be reduced as an individual soldier/vehicle can not be targeted but just an area to fire into.



Like Platoon_Michael I too was suprised how little smoke can cover my moving troops against the AI. They seem to laser guide their shoots through smoke even when using to mortars firing short before a tank. It would be great if this could be well a bit better especially when using mortars to fire smoke grenades.

Without this I can't see a great desire to have OB smoke as an option because the main reason, giving cover, would not be archived.

IMO ;)

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 9:20:54 PM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny
CC used to be a cutting edge game, I remember be so thrilled when it came out.




CC1 in 1996 and CC4 in late 1999.

And in all that time neither you nor anyone else discussed nor asked for OB smoke.



-




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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/17/2008 10:03:47 PM   
Stwa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny
CC used to be a cutting edge game, I remember be so thrilled when it came out.




CC1 in 1996 and CC4 in late 1999.

And in all that time neither you nor anyone else discussed nor asked for OB smoke.



-






Good point!

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/18/2008 3:34:45 AM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

quote:

It could be über conservative from your point of view. But it can be also a very pragmatic point of view. The battlefield is very limited Off board artillery is so massive on a larger scale. Some questions may come up like : is there any smoke shells available ? How is the weather today ? What about the wind ? Artillery accuracy ? Smoke time length ? How are you going to manage your teams through a large smoke cloud ? And even more questions and arguing.... quote:[deep south accent]"Naw me an' Skeeter dun hold wi them noo fangled hexagons."[/deep south accent] And please do not forget that people may not be living in the usa; sometimes a wordplay could be difficult to get


First up, I think, since nobody has contraticted me, I can conclude that the total absence of OB smoke is unrealistic.


It probably is a realistic change and would be a good enhancement to the game. Though because of the other smoke options available I would prefer the developers add other things before this (AA units that can protect the battlefield during a battle, air interdiction on the strat map, vehicles carrying troops, etc.), but everyone will have their own preferred order for enhancements. Given that the attacker in CC usually doesn’t have a numerical advantage as was previously mentioned maybe it should be higher up my wishlist….

That's funny. I'm playing a freeware RTW game made by a single programmer that has AA units and a support system in which one can choose number of tubes, number of salvoes, type of ammo and area size for artillery missions and where fire support has a decent delay and a heigh map and a tool that allows to check line of sight and a lot more.

But I guess, for some reason such things are impossible to implement in CCMT or other CC games.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/18/2008 3:56:40 AM   
Tejszd

 

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Perturabo, what is the game? Might have to check it out, it is definitely priced good....

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RE: OB Smoke? - 11/18/2008 10:42:13 AM   
Platoon_Michael


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quote:

AI and players can fire through smoke and will kill troops. The odds of hitting are/should be reduced as an individual soldier/vehicle can not be targeted but just an area to fire into.


I have seen how they do still shot,but in CCIV when mousing over said item it would have said "Cant See"
I'm not quite sure about the accuracy going down as the tank still hit it's mark quite a few times.

quote:

I can't see a great desire to have OB smoke as an option because the main reason, giving cover, would not be archived.


I second that one.

< Message edited by Platoon_Michael -- 11/18/2008 10:44:03 AM >

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