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Observations - 11/10/2008 11:00:16 AM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1503
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
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1) AI advancing slowly


  • I could verify and repeat the following a few times:

    The map Elsenborn ridge:

    The attacking US troops start on the ridge in the North West corner, while I can place my troops around the corner, with some cover in the North East (2 buildings, trenches), but with no trees as cover south of the ridge line, so I have to pull back these troops to a trench line further south, and to the woods south east., near the bridge.

    My Inf BG had no tank units left, just some 5 armoured scout units, like the 234/1 (heavy armed car w/ 8 wheels, they are somewhat like Greyhounds, but their armor is thicker - and their main guns [20mm] are weaker compared to the 37mm guns of the greyhound), 1 mortar halftrack, 1 inf gun HT, and plenty of infantry.
    The enemy, a US armored BG, splashed all my armored scout units and armoured mortar/inf gun units as this game doesn't care about the fact that these 8-wheel tracked vehicles had excellent off-road capabilities and that they could go up to 90 km/h on paved streets, so I couldn't just gun and run.
    The AI tanks finished my infantry (after they managed to take out 1 or 2 tanks in close combat - using lots of smoke screens .. hmm ok and sweat ,hehe ), then, after the first 2 objectives had been taken (the hill south of the ridge and the trenches north east), the AI just sits there for 5 mins, then moves like 30 meters, then stops again, then moves again, the same drill for half an hour.
    The problem for the AI was, that only my vehicle crews survived: Some searched for cover next to the vehicles, some hit the dirt out in the open, but the enemy AI had no LoF/LoS. So i could see them moving or better: Being idle then moving a few meters south, over and over for about 30 mins.
    Clicking on the Truce-button didn't do the trick here, as it seemed that my casualty rate wasn't sufficient to end the battle, with so many surviving crews.

    My settings: Green, always obey orders, no time limit. Basically, there was no way to end this battle before the game "decided" that the losses were sufficient to end the battle (which took way over an hour - [of me watching and cussing]).


2) Deployment of mortars and MGs:

  • I might have missed something, but I don't know any other way to keep a mortar squad from fireing mortar rounds at a target in LoS than to issue an ambush order. This may result in the group searching for better cover, so some of its members often start to crawl and if i have really bad luck, the guy operating the mortar moves as well. It then takes the guy ages to set up the mortar again, literally rendering this squad useless for quite a while.
    The same happens to MG squads. So, in WaR, i usually have to issue the "defend" order to MG squads and don't touch them anymore after that, to get the most of their suppressing fire until they are wiped out.

    In CC4 (and the early installments), the process of setting up heavy equipment takes around 20 seconds, maybe 30-40 secs max.). I don't know why this had been changed (or overlooked?), but the current behaviour is anything than realistic, especially since a single (badly aimed) tank round or bazooka round may result in restarting the whole procedure, as the gunner crawls to a different spot with better cover.

    I hate to say it, but this isn't an improvement, it's pretty much the opposite.


3) Infantry guns / AT guns:

  • The speed of these units is and was ridiculous, it's a detail which is really disturbing.
    Some of the german AT guns or Inf guns had a weight of up to 760 kg, so they could be pulled by 4-6 men, especially the 37mm and 57mm (US) guns. Given, the bigger guns, like the 75mm PaKs weighed up to 1.7 tons (PaK 36, 1710 kg), they had to be towed by vehicles and could only be adjusted or moved around a fire position. Most IG guns (inf guns) were rather lightweights: the le IG 42 (7,5 cm) weighed 560 kg, way less than today's civil passenger cars, so 5 ppl could move them in an appropriate manner. I've seen german newsreels where crews pull these IG guns in Russia, and they were hastily moving them to keep up with infantry squads assaulting a Russian village. They didn't move the gun at walking speed, they moved it on the double.

    Check out the 3rd picture in the right column:
    This is an infantry gun designated 7,5 cm Gebirgsgeschütz 36 (mountain gun), towed by a Krad (NSU Kettenkrad) - a mix of a motorbike (front) and a tracked vehicle, with 36 HP.
    How about adding something like this to tow guns/heavy mortars with these vehicles? I don't know if it's possible without re-writing the engine, but this would make re-deployment (during a battle) fun.

    http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/gebirgsgeschutze.htm

    At least the movement speed of the light guns (up to 760 kg) should be reviewed.


4) Weapon assignments.

  • It's a pity that, in support gun/weapon units (like HMG, mortar), once the soldier who operates the particular weapon dies, the crew loses the gun. In real life, the loader/assistant would take over the gun and proceed to suppress the enemy. I can't remember if it's the same for AT units, I am too lazy to test it now, and I don't feel like playing this game right now, with the constant overheating of my card.
    If this weapon issue could be solved, the game would be more fun and more realistic, no doubt.


5) Infantry equipped with Panzerfaust or Bazooka

  • German/US infantry line units equipped with 1 Panzerfaust/1Bazooka won't attack a given tank if ordered to do so, they often keep crawling and sneaking, and if they are ready to fire the AT round finally, the enemy tank has started to move away already, or moved completely out of LoS.
    If the player issues a defend order, the Panzerfaust round will be fired faster, but again, the player has no control (unlike with the Bazooka/Panzerschreck teams) over when a tank is being attacked with an AT round.
    I might be wrong, but the AI infantry doesn't seem to have this problem. Once my tanks closely pass a building that is occupied by enemy inf squads, I can be sure that they fire their AT weapons asap, in addition to throwing all their grenades and explosives.


6) Deadliness (or the lack of it) of inf AT rockets.

  • Maybe the damage values and range values of german AT rockets should be reviewed.
    Panzerschrecks (which looked like the US bazookas) used 88mm rockets, the american bazookas used 60mm rockets.
    Early versions of the Panzerschreck rounds could penetrate 60mm armor at 60° degrees, a later version (1944) with an improved round had a range of 180 meters.

    The "Panzerfaust" had a range of 30 meters (1943), and the last version, the "Panzerfaust 100m" (November 1944) had a range of 100 meters. Its warhead could penetrate 200mm armor.

    I don't know the specs of the american Bazookas (regarding penetration + range), but I tend to think that the Germans rather used their Panzerschrecks in order to have a better range (180m), as the several versions of the Panzerfaust ("faust"=fist) had ranges from 30m to 100 meters only.
    The Germans tried to copy the Bazooka and its RPG, but they struggled with many flaws in the design (soldiers received heavy burns caused by the beam of the rocket propelled grenade) and suffered of low supply regarding the Panzerschreck rounds, at several points.

    While the accuracy was low, the penetration power of the Panzerfaust was superior, it was the main AT weapon in close combat.
    The Panzerschreck could only be used in trenches or fortified main front lines, as the soldiers couldn't even use it in woods, as the grenade already used to go off when it touched branches or bushes during its journey, the operator could not shoot it through branches or bushes - a major downside.
    The barrel of the Schreck was also prone to light damages (mortar fire, shrapnels, bumps), it was rather a fragile weapon that had to be stored in cases - away from the LoF.

    4.120.500 Panzerfausts had been produced in 1944, compared to 238.316 Panzerschrecks. Also the constant and high losses of Panzerschrecks starting in July 1944 suggests that the troops in the Ardennes rather depended on Panzerfausts than on Panzerschrecks. I don't think the latter should be used for the AT teams in the game, they didn't have enough punch anyways.
    On the other side, American Bazookas really shouldn't show much effect when hitting German Panther or Tiger tanks. It must be a real lucky shot, to damage a Panther or Tiger tank, let alone to destroy it (nearly impossible imho).


6) Crews of destroyed/abandoned vehicles can't move.

  • It's funny, they often cover next to their burning tank or even under it (i doubt a crew would do that in real life, as the wrecks often burned for hours, with red-hot parts).
    I'd love to be able to command surviving crews. I might be wrong, but I think that was possible in the very first installment.

    Anyway, is it possible to change this?


< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 11/10/2008 2:45:09 PM >


_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006
Post #: 1
RE: Observations - 11/10/2008 4:52:44 PM   
LitFuel


Posts: 272
Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Syracuse, NY
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Doesn't playing with always obey orders on take away one of the best parts of the game? 

(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 2
RE: Observations - 11/10/2008 11:14:41 PM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
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Even the manual recommends 15 min battles vs the AI...so no time limits (especially with the AI attacking) won't give you the best battles.
And I agree with LitFuel, "always obey orders" should be turned off for you...give that to the AI instead.

quote:

4) Weapon assignments.


* It's a pity that, in support gun/weapon units (like HMG, mortar), once the soldier who operates the particular weapon dies, the crew loses the gun. In real life, the loader/assistant would take over the gun and proceed to suppress the enemy. I can't remember if it's the same for AT units, I am too lazy to test it now, and I don't feel like playing this game right now, with the constant overheating of my card.
If this weapon issue could be solved, the game would be more fun and more realistic, no doubt.


AFAIK when the gunner is KIA or WIA...the loader or the rest of the MG crew will take over.
Quickly checking the WAR data, MG Teams soldiers are correctly coded as crews...so all of them can operate the MG.

This is different for Heavy Infantry teams with an attached MG. Only 2 soldiers are assigned as crews of this MG...so when they die the squad loses the MG (the squad leader sometimes pick up the MG though).

quote:


6) Crews of destroyed/abandoned vehicles can't move.



* It's funny, they often cover next to their burning tank or even under it (i doubt a crew would do that in real life, as the wrecks often burned for hours, with red-hot parts).
I'd love to be able to command surviving crews. I might be wrong, but I think that was possible in the very first installment.

Anyway, is it possible to change this?


This has been hotly debated at the CC forums before
You can still control bailed out Command Crews, but 'normal' vehicle crews are not controllable. IMHO this is realistic, as Vehicle Crews were not infantrymen...so they should not be taking orders to fight as infantry when their vehicle is destroyed. The flaw in the CC engine is that the crews will try to find cover and then just stay in that cover (sometimes near their destroyed vehicle) and the enemy can find and destroy the almost helpless crews.
Ideally after finding cover, vehicle crews should start retreating and try to exit the map.

If you must have control over bailed-out crews...change the data to Command Crew in the AlsTeam.txt...but this is not the best option and certainly not realistic as vehicle crews also become leader units with leader sphere of influence.

< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 11/10/2008 11:35:48 PM >


_____________________________


http://www.moddb.com/mods/cc5-battle-of-surabaya-1945

(in reply to LitFuel)
Post #: 3
RE: Observations - 11/11/2008 12:02:30 AM   
TheReal_Pak40

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 10/8/2003
Status: offline
1. Yes, the attacking AI is very sluggish. The manual recommends setting it to 15 minute battles which will cure the long waiting. I'm not sure if it makes the AI more aggressive since it only has a few minutes to attack.

2. I haven't noticed this. Every time I go from Ambush to Fire, they start firing within a few seconds, but then again I don't put my mortar squads in view of the enemy. The best thing to do is use a platoon HQ to spot for your mortar which will improve accuracy. I think the mortar crew has to be within the command circle for this to happen.

If your mortar crew is in view of the enemy and is scrambling for cover it's probably because it's under fire.

3. The speed is kept slow because they also have to move the ammunition. Also, keep in mind that the soldier graphics are twice as big as they're supposed to be. Therefore, the rate at which they move is deceiving.

4. I have not noticed this and I seriously doubt it's the case. In fact, I know it's not the case with HMGs.

5. This is a bothersome thing that happens when their ammo is low. They are trying to conserve ammo. I wish there was an override to the conservation. There should be a "Fire NOW or you're dead!" command.

6 AT Rockets. I haven't played WaR enough yet but in past CC games the PF and PS were extremely deadly and very accurate within 120 meters or so. The bazookas were frustratingly inaccurate and not so powerful, probably very realistic. BTW, This is customizable if you're into editing the game data.

6 (crews). I noticed this the other night. This might be so that players don't use the crews in a "gamey" way like for scouting or attacking, which would not be realistic. IMO, they should make the crew scramble for the nearest side of the map ASAP.


(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 4
RE: Observations - 11/11/2008 12:08:55 AM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 2875
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

6 (crews). I noticed this the other night. This might be so that players don't use the crews in a "gamey" way like for scouting or attacking, which would not be realistic. IMO, they should make the crew scramble for the nearest side of the map ASAP.


In single H2H battles a lot of times crews were used for suicide VL rushes or scouting. So it is better that they are not in player control. As per TheReal_Pak40's comment above, CC3 probably handled this best with the men fleeing right off the map rather than hanging around.... But then again I'm sure that there might be some who at least think they should be forced to stay till the end of the battle....

< Message edited by Tejszd -- 11/11/2008 1:06:38 AM >

(in reply to TheReal_Pak40)
Post #: 5
RE: Observations - 11/11/2008 6:07:03 AM   
Stwa


Posts: 446
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Even the manual recommends 15 min battles vs the AI...so no time limits (especially with the AI attacking) won't give you the best battles.



Well, I don't agree with this at all. The manual is probably over 10 years old anyway, and I didn't get one when I bought my copy of CC5.

I have played a lot of games against the AI down through the years. I have had some very cool games where the AI was the attacker and there was NO TIME LIMIT. Also, if I played every game against the AI like Andrews video, I might become bored with the game after a few nights. Don't get me wrong, Andrews games looked cool, but there are a lot of other ways for people to appreciate a game with the AI.

My kid played again tonight for the first time in probably 5 years or more. He beat the AI on his first attempt. No time limit though. He likes to go real slow, and he hates it when his guys get zapped. Its strange behavior for a kid, but he was always this way when he was younger. I think he tries to take all the objectives without any casualties.


(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 6
RE: Observations - 11/11/2008 6:22:24 AM   
Stwa


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Joined: 8/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
My settings: Green, always obey orders, no time limit. Basically, there was no way to end this battle before the game "decided" that the losses were sufficient to end the battle (which took way over an hour - [of me watching and cussing]



Not all games a filled with excitement right to end. So there can be duds, and you can generally arrange circumstances to produce differing results. For instance see my screenie in the AI thread where the AI gets most of its teams shot up in 10 minutes or less by a single machine gun crew. Of course, the game was set to no time limit, but if the game isn't fun, heck, just hit escape. That will end it for sure.

Also, Me thinks the role designation really affect deployment more than anything on the tactical map. Once the combat starts the AI may decide to go on the defensive if his force moral is lower than yours. If he is not vis, heck, you gotta send out patrols and look for him. Its fun, but be careful.


< Message edited by Stwa -- 11/11/2008 6:31:35 AM >

(in reply to GoodGuy)
Post #: 7
RE: Observations - 11/11/2008 8:01:29 AM   
Noakesy

 

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Another mention of an overheating graphics card, probably puts me off this (my pc is 3yrs old I think, so presumably wouldn't cope at all).

(in reply to Stwa)
Post #: 8
RE: Observations - 11/11/2008 10:59:54 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
we've had 3 individual reports of "hot" cards... just each of them has been posted many times.

I'm running on a 600mhz celeron without any problems.

Also 2 P4's without any problems.

< Message edited by Andrew Williams -- 11/11/2008 11:02:10 AM >

(in reply to Noakesy)
Post #: 9
RE: Observations - 11/11/2008 3:12:26 PM   
TheReal_Pak40

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 10/8/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noakesy

Another mention of an overheating graphics card, probably puts me off this (my pc is 3yrs old I think, so presumably wouldn't cope at all).


I think think the minimum spec for this game is a pentium 133mgz. In other words, a really old machine could play this game.

BTW, I have a 3.5 year old laptop with 2gigs of RAM and an Nvidia 6800 card. The game is super smooth, but then again I can also play Oblivion with medium graphic settings.
You should be fine with a 3 year old computer.

(in reply to Noakesy)
Post #: 10
RE: Observations - 11/12/2008 11:22:40 AM   
Stwa


Posts: 446
Joined: 8/12/2005
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I have an old Athelon 2000, with 1Gig, and a Radeon 9600. Works pretty good, sometimes I think the movement gets slow on really huge custom maps like GJS.

Also, I wish my video card would heat up a little bit. I like using my puter as space heater during the winter.

(in reply to TheReal_Pak40)
Post #: 11
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