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Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waiting...

 
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Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waiting... - 10/25/2008 2:21:13 PM   
Time Traveller

 

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As a very interested potential paying customer, I was wondering if anyone who is working on this game could give any general time frame for release. I think after waiting several years, we are owed at least this much. I don't think this is asking too much. More and more it is appearing this title is vaporware and will never see the light of day. No more excuses please. Thank you.

< Message edited by Time Traveller -- 10/25/2008 2:27:38 PM >
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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/25/2008 4:55:38 PM   
Hard Sarge


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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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I have said a number of times, when I have something I can say, I will say it, until then, I got to say, it is not ready yet

if you read some of the other forums, the main complaints are that the game was released too soon and it was not ready

I still think there are things that need to be corrected before the game can be released, until those are fixed, and Matrix has gotten a chance to do the stuff that they need to do, I can not say, when and where it will be ready




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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/25/2008 7:04:22 PM   
flipperwasirish


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Hard Sarge,

Thanks for the update. Keep plugging away until you get it as RIGHT as you can.

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/25/2008 10:11:47 PM   
jamesm

 

Posts: 764
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From: Cairns, Australia
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It is good to see that Matrix is no 360 games!

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/26/2008 1:09:38 AM   
harley


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wow a first-time poster demanding response... There's something you don't see every day. 

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/26/2008 2:42:03 AM   
Time Traveller

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

wow a first-time poster demanding response... There's something you don't see every day. 


Excuse me? Demanding? I was politely asking. Just because that was my first post doesn't mean I haven't been watching what is going on with this title. I have been a regular customer purchasing Matrix games for years now, and visiting this forum regularly. You guys have no clue what customer service is, do you? Your arrogant attitudes in this sub-forum towards regular and potential customers is absolutely astounding. While I don't agree with Executioner Five's name calling in the other thread, he was basically right. You guys keep up these attitudes towards regular and potential customers who are asking very reasonable questions and you will have no customers left at all, even if this game is ever released. And congratulations, you've just lost another long-time customer. I will not be purchasing any more Matrix games.

< Message edited by Time Traveller -- 10/26/2008 2:57:57 AM >

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/26/2008 10:55:12 AM   
harley


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I'm sorry you feel that way. I won't make any exuses for my post, but if you read your own post objectively, you'll see why I drew the conclusion of "demand".

I apologise for tweaking you, I shouldn't have done that, though you should see it from my perspective. For all I knew, you were E5 posting under a new login. Your grammar is far better, I should have realised that.

I'll take "arrogant attitude" under advisement - I do not suffer fools gladly (or any other way) so I know I do come across that way at times. I thought I had it in check here. One hopes you weren't referring to one explicitly...

Please also remember Ron, Waynn and I are NOT Matrix. We don't speak for Matrix, and nothing we say should be construed as Matrix policy (unless explicitly stated otherwise).

this has been an unpaid apology on behalf of the harley was tired party.





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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/26/2008 11:24:46 AM   
Time Traveller

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

I'm sorry you feel that way. I won't make any exuses for my post, but if you read your own post objectively, you'll see why I drew the conclusion of "demand".

I apologise for tweaking you, I shouldn't have done that, though you should see it from my perspective. For all I knew, you were E5 posting under a new login. Your grammar is far better, I should have realised that.

I'll take "arrogant attitude" under advisement - I do not suffer fools gladly (or any other way) so I know I do come across that way at times. I thought I had it in check here. One hopes you weren't referring to one explicitly...

Please also remember Ron, Waynn and I are NOT Matrix. We don't speak for Matrix, and nothing we say should be construed as Matrix policy (unless explicitly stated otherwise).

this has been an unpaid apology on behalf of the harley was tired party.


Sorry for jumping on you like that. I certainly am not demanding anything. I was just a little bit surprised at your response. I have actively been following the development of this release since it was announced over two years ago. The very secretive 'it's ready when it's ready' is just getting a little bit old after this long. I hope you can understand where I am coming from. I know you and Hard Sarge aren't the programmers. I do realize only one college guy is working on most of it at the moment. I've been following Hard Sarge's test reports for a while now. I do want it to be released as bug-free as everyone else. I'm just worried that after this long, cost overruns might cause it to be shelved before release. I hope that's not the case. I owned the original 12 'o Clock High years back and was really looking forward to this re-release. Here's still hoping it gets released someday.

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/26/2008 11:33:41 AM   
Lützow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller
You guys keep up these attitudes towards regular and potential customers who are asking very reasonable questions and you will have no customers left at all, even if this game is ever released. And congratulations, you've just lost another long-time customer. I will not be purchasing any more Matrix games.


Off course there will be people left, purchasing this game. Maybe you should consider that Matrix is not your typical mainstream publisher but rather a platform for dedicated dev's and their loyal fanbase. So save your overemphazising of 'customer' for those companies primarily caring about financial interests of share holders while disregarding hardcore gamers.

That being said, better losing some customers than having BoB rushed out of the door.

< Message edited by Lützow -- 10/26/2008 11:41:27 AM >

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/26/2008 12:33:42 PM   
Hard Sarge


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TT

"The very secretive 'it's ready when it's ready' is just getting a little bit old after this long."

this is the area that I do not understand or follow

how am I being secretive when I say I can't tell you when, when I don't know when myself ?

we just released a major beta verison, that should be a big deal, the next one, should close down a major exploit in the game system, that has been there from day one, besides added some things that the game needs, from the player and AI sides

the release after that one, should hopefully nail a old bug that was a game killer, we finally locked it up and hope to be able to figured out what and why it is happening, in the old game it was very rare, but could happen, it is still there and it is still rare (unless it happens)

when I get the go ahead to say something, I will say it (really, you won't be able to shut me up)


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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/27/2008 4:35:49 PM   
Time Traveller

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

TT

"The very secretive 'it's ready when it's ready' is just getting a little bit old after this long."

this is the area that I do not understand or follow

how am I being secretive when I say I can't tell you when, when I don't know when myself ?

we just released a major beta verison, that should be a big deal, the next one, should close down a major exploit in the game system, that has been there from day one, besides added some things that the game needs, from the player and AI sides

the release after that one, should hopefully nail a old bug that was a game killer, we finally locked it up and hope to be able to figured out what and why it is happening, in the old game it was very rare, but could happen, it is still there and it is still rare (unless it happens)

when I get the go ahead to say something, I will say it (really, you won't be able to shut me up)



A few Playtesters Wanted for late Beta stage testing of Gary Grisby’s Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich

posted 4/15/08


link

This 'late' beta announcement was posted in April. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask this question- what happened? Seriously. Whoever is doing the programming on this game, why can't they just be honest and tell us what the heck is going on after this long? It is now almost November and it appears the game is nowhere close to being finished. And it sounds like you have even more beta releases lined up. I think we are being kept in the dark about the release date of this game because no one even knows if or when this title will be released. Regardless of what you or anyone else on this board says, experience and common sense tells me that the snail's pace development of this game is almost guaranteeing it won't be released. I honestly hope I'm wrong.

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/27/2008 5:19:52 PM   
Hard Sarge


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I don't basicly know what more I can say, it seems like no matter how many times I say we are working on it, and it is not ready yet, does not seem to sink in, and all we are doing is lying and sitting at home playing the game ourselfs because we don't want anybody else to play it

and yes, I got other beta releases planned, how do you think this stuff works ? something is fixed, added, changed, it got to be tested to be sure it works as planned and or does not add new issues to the game

with the NDA's and all, I don't think I can show my folders, but here is my master Beta folder

and I know 3 of the games I have worked on, I have cleaned out there folders as the job was finished, so the master folder should be larger




Attachment (1)

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/27/2008 5:21:54 PM   
Hard Sarge


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just in case, I have about 7 Matrix folders, one is for my games, some are for files and S numbers and stuff like that, this is my master Beta folder, were all of my beta info is stored, it is kept on a outside HD, just in case something screwy happens to my computer

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/27/2008 6:09:49 PM   
Time Traveller

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

just in case, I have about 7 Matrix folders, one is for my games, some are for files and S numbers and stuff like that, this is my master Beta folder, were all of my beta info is stored, it is kept on a outside HD, just in case something screwy happens to my computer


Thanks for your honesty, HS. I know they aren't telling you much, either. Best of luck.

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/28/2008 2:22:17 AM   
Joel Billings


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Please realize that the guys working on Eagle Day are "volunteers" that have devoted a lot of time and energy to the project with (as far as I know), no payments other than the hope someday of getting the game out and making a few dollars from royalties on sales (which if you factor the hours put in would surely be slave wages). These are people that enjoyed the original game and wanted to make it better. They have real world lives that get in the way of the work. I don't think they've ever tried to make people think the game is closer than it is. As Ron says, he doesn't even know himself when it's going to be finished, which is partially due to the fact that he doesn't control the resources that are on the project and can't say when someone will have the real world intrude on the project's progress. You can take exception with the way that this project is being done, but really it's the only way that it could get done. Gary and Keith put a few hours in to help out a few times over the past couple of years, but were not and are not now in a position to do much more than that minor help. It's really been up to these guys and they've done the best they can with the time they've had to work on it. As BoB/BTR were the two Gary Grigsby games that I never were involved with, I can't say much about the state of the project. However, Gary has looked at what's been done and thinks it's looking pretty good. You never know what's going to happen in the future, but the odds seem good that the game will be finished. I know Matrix very much wants to get the game out. Good luck to Harley and Ron and hopefully a year from now you'll be looking back and saying, "I'm sure glad those guys stuck with it because I love this game".

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/28/2008 2:44:11 AM   
2ndACR


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Take you time........not too much mind you.....................One day I will have time to play the thing..........blasted WITP is worse than crack.

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/28/2008 4:40:31 AM   
jcjordan

 

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Don't forget about the coke, crank, meth & mj - BOB/BTR, WITP2 & AE Just what did Gary & Keith spawn after all...a heck of a lot of addicts & it's only getting worse.

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/28/2008 5:26:45 AM   
Time Traveller

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Please realize that the guys working on Eagle Day are "volunteers" that have devoted a lot of time and energy to the project with (as far as I know), no payments other than the hope someday of getting the game out and making a few dollars from royalties on sales (which if you factor the hours put in would surely be slave wages). These are people that enjoyed the original game and wanted to make it better. They have real world lives that get in the way of the work. I don't think they've ever tried to make people think the game is closer than it is. As Ron says, he doesn't even know himself when it's going to be finished, which is partially due to the fact that he doesn't control the resources that are on the project and can't say when someone will have the real world intrude on the project's progress. You can take exception with the way that this project is being done, but really it's the only way that it could get done. Gary and Keith put a few hours in to help out a few times over the past couple of years, but were not and are not now in a position to do much more than that minor help. It's really been up to these guys and they've done the best they can with the time they've had to work on it. As BoB/BTR were the two Gary Grigsby games that I never were involved with, I can't say much about the state of the project. However, Gary has looked at what's been done and thinks it's looking pretty good. You never know what's going to happen in the future, but the odds seem good that the game will be finished. I know Matrix very much wants to get the game out. Good luck to Harley and Ron and hopefully a year from now you'll be looking back and saying, "I'm sure glad those guys stuck with it because I love this game".


Thanks for that informative reply, Joel Billings. I do appreciate it very much. I am certainly not trying to put a hex on the development of this game. I want to see it released someday just as much as everyone else here.

By the way, I have WITP and absolutely love it.


< Message edited by Time Traveller -- 10/28/2008 5:27:43 AM >

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/28/2008 11:30:32 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Time Traveller


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

TT

"The very secretive 'it's ready when it's ready' is just getting a little bit old after this long."

this is the area that I do not understand or follow

how am I being secretive when I say I can't tell you when, when I don't know when myself ?

we just released a major beta verison, that should be a big deal, the next one, should close down a major exploit in the game system, that has been there from day one, besides added some things that the game needs, from the player and AI sides

the release after that one, should hopefully nail a old bug that was a game killer, we finally locked it up and hope to be able to figured out what and why it is happening, in the old game it was very rare, but could happen, it is still there and it is still rare (unless it happens)

when I get the go ahead to say something, I will say it (really, you won't be able to shut me up)



A few Playtesters Wanted for late Beta stage testing of Gary Grisby’s Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich

posted 4/15/08


link

This 'late' beta announcement was posted in April. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask this question- what happened? Seriously. Whoever is doing the programming on this game, why can't they just be honest and tell us what the heck is going on after this long? It is now almost November and it appears the game is nowhere close to being finished. And it sounds like you have even more beta releases lined up. I think we are being kept in the dark about the release date of this game because no one even knows if or when this title will be released. Regardless of what you or anyone else on this board says, experience and common sense tells me that the snail's pace development of this game is almost guaranteeing it won't be released. I honestly hope I'm wrong.


Not ever having been involved in Beta testing and thus knowing nothing pertinent, I am curious, whether this 7 month Beta testing period (with further testing time still required)
is more, normal or less than one would expect?

Alfred

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/28/2008 5:40:06 PM   
flipperwasirish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Not ever having been involved in Beta testing and thus knowing nothing pertinent, I am curious, whether this 7 month Beta testing period (with further testing time still required)
is more, normal or less than one would expect?

Alfred


"Normal" time-frames for any project depend upon many variables and are dependant upon available resources. So it is difficult to say what normal is. Parts of this project could be all of the above.

Joel basically repeated what has been said before and we will have to wait for anything more. Hopefully the wait will be worth it in the end.




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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/28/2008 8:32:10 PM   
Terminus


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No such thing as "normal". All projects are different, but the main reason for the long time (like in WitP/AE) is, like Joel said, the volunteer part-time status of the development team.

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/29/2008 8:14:12 PM   
kaybayray

 

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Just some thoughts from another long time customer of Matrix games as well as a former member of Wild Bill and the Raiders Team.

Long ago back a couple years when I first found this game on the Matrix forums I asked about any projected release or completion date like many of us have on this and other games. The reply I got from Sarge and others was very good IMO. They directed me to some of the more technical posts on what they had or were working on to correct, add or modify with this game. This showed me that they were in fact "working the problem" so to speak.

Well after months of following them I realized that they have a gargantuan task they are working on and it will likely be some time before they really get it completed. So with some help from them and some other regulars on this forum I located and purchased an old copy of the original game and started working away at it. Right away I realized this was no pretzel and beer game. This game requires some significant thought for organizing and planning your strategy and mission doctrine. With that I came to a significant realization that the task to repair, modify, add content to and/or really tune this game up would require at the very least a much more significant focused and cognitive effort of several people working very well together if they were to achieve success. So in the words of a fellow Engineer I worked with way back " what is the appropriate Engineering term for this Revelation?? DUH !! "

So realizing the extreme depth and breadth of this game I have been working on learning how to play it and how to succeed at it, thanks to the help of Sarge, Swift, Harley to name a few with theie very considerate and helpful replys to my newb questions. With the help of other people I have found a treasure trove of historical information that I believe will greatly enhance my game experience with the original version I have and with the Matrix version I will have once completed. So my advice to any who feel frustion or anxiety at the fact that a release date is not set in stone on top of Mount Arrarat is to read through the myrad of posted topics on this forum so you can get a true perspective of what efforts are being made and what challenges these guys are dealing with before you really get upset at them or Matrix.

Some perspective for you all on the "Volenteers" that work on the games distributed by Matrix. Long ago way back in the 90's I was on the Wild Bill and the Raiders team workin on campaigns and scenarios for the Steel Panthers World at War game. All of us working on that were doing that as a "Labor of Love" and were not an employee of Matrix and any affiliate. We were people working in many different professions but sharing the one common bond of an enjoyment of competitive gaming. So much so that we wanted to help other enthusiests get more from these games. So in what little and varied time we could hack out of our regular lives or responsibilty and obligation we strove to build these great games better. This is taking a real "nuts n bolts" approach which is rather rare in these days of glossing over everything. So as much as I join all of you in wanting to see this game released I also understand that it will be some time. So if you really want to check it out, search for one of the original 12 Oclock High, Bombing the Reich games and start digging.

Later,
KayBay

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/30/2008 1:22:43 PM   
sauro

 

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O.K. boys I can say only.. ok is ready when it is ready, but the wait wears out (for me)

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/30/2008 3:06:05 PM   
Hard Sarge


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not to be smart, but it is not our idea

also wanted to say, that I have said alot in the past, so any more, I am getting to the point that I don't know what I should be saying, so you guys know what is going on

so, if you have questions or what not, ask and then I can explain what and why or how it is working


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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/30/2008 6:04:52 PM   
Yank


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As computer wargame fans we're lucky anybody is working on re-releasing these titles as (hopefully) much improved products over the original games. If these guys were not doing it I don't know who would. Certainly not the mainstream game development companies. So the reality is we have part-time developers who do this more for the love of it than the money. With a few exceptions like 2by3 games, Paradox, or Norm Koger there's almost nothing new in our area of interest being produced. Even some of the 2by3 work lately has been on the wargaming "lite" side.

People are obviously confusing some of these "fan-based" development efforts with big budget game development projects that have full time professional development staff. My advice for what it's worth, is that it might serve Matrix well to remind people of that in as "official" a way as they can, when one of these types of projects is announced, and a spot created for it on the forum. It might help people put the development timeline (indefinite) in better perspective and cut down on the inquiries.









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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/30/2008 6:26:26 PM   
Hard Sarge


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for 2 by 3, while I will agree that the world at war, is a little on the "lite" side (but was designed to be that way) but the AWC game is very detailed, and a very nasty AI

and not sure what can be said, but I know at least one of there games coming up is good and detailed and large, and, it has nothing to do with the pacific


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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/30/2008 6:57:58 PM   
Lützow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
and not sure what can be said, but I know at least one of there games coming up is good and detailed and large, and, it has nothing to do with the pacific


That would be "Russian Front" but 2by3 didn't post news or dev diaries anymore for ages.

WitP has been the pinnacle of Grigsby's creation and an advancement of what he started with '12 o Clock' and 'Bombing the Reich'. Can't say much about WtBS as I don't own it, but 'World of War' was a huge regress in comparison to his previous titles.

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/30/2008 7:15:35 PM   
Hard Sarge


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well, to be honest, WaW was planned to be "lite" from the start, after all the detail work on UV/WitP

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RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/30/2008 7:48:23 PM   
Joel Billings


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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online
Yes, and at risk of going way off topic, we are actively working on our next Russian Front game. I've been so busy testing it I haven't written a dev journal entry in months. Guess it's time I get around to doing that. You'll notice that Matrix tends not to start a public forum anymore for games in development until the game is near completion. That's because of games that have been in development for years after the forum was created. That's good and bad. It makes it less likely that people will get frustrated from the wait for a game long since announced as in development. However it also keeps us developers from discussing what we're doing with the public, and sometimes getting good public feedback. With our games we can often be in testing for a good year or longer before release (WBTS was about 16 months), and sometimes I'd like to have a public forum to discuss things even before I have a release date. That's the tradeoff we and Matrix faces. We've elected to get early alpha testers and set up a forum where the testers can discuss things, but even so, there are times we'd like to go out to the wider world but don't have an easy way to do that.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 29
RE: Waiting... and waiting... and waiting... and waitin... - 10/30/2008 9:23:09 PM   
Yank


Posts: 169
Joined: 5/19/2004
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline
Didn't mean to denigrate 2by3 in any way, shape, or form with my "lite" comment. I'm a huge Grigsby-Billings fan. WAW not my cup of tea, but it's rare for them to make something I am not interested in.

_____________________________

Ils ne passeront pas


(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 30
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