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PBEM skipping - 10/15/2008 11:46:51 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Hey guys:

If we had a popup menu attached to the phase title at the top of the screen that would allow you to skip any phase EXCEPT eco, would that help speed things up a bit?
This would only be active if it were your turn because these settings would need to be broadcast to all players BUT this might be pretty simple to do.

What say you?




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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/16/2008 12:08:29 AM   
bresh

 

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I think the idea sounds good.
It leaves it to the player if he wants to skip a phase or not.

Now a big question, what if Spain decides to skip his diplomacy phase ?  Currently if host skips Spain diplomacy phase all nations diplomacy is not run.

Another question, I remember for streamlinging there has been suggested "simultanious diplomacy" & "Simultanius eco phases", did you look into this ?



Regards
Bresh

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/16/2008 12:48:41 AM   
Marshall Ellis


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I am still looking into ALL streamlining possiblities and what it will take.
Simul is possible but I have not looked into any time estimates yet.




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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



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Post #: 3
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/16/2008 2:18:47 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Allowing a player to choose when to skip a phase would help speed up the game, especially for turns like the Austrian and Prussian naval phases, or the Russian naval phase when its fleet is ice locked. Yes, the host can skip a turn for you, but it still requires the host to log on, so someone still has to interact with the game, and there is no real time saving. If this is easy to do, please go ahead.

As to other phases, what happens when they are skipped? What would happen to your reinforcements for instance ifyou skipped a reinforcement phase? do you still need to pay for supply if you skip a land phase? Would the AI take over in this case?

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/16/2008 4:56:21 AM   
timewalker03

 

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A possibility would also be the diplomacy phase. Since in the FtF game that was the time when people stepped out of the room and discussed terms for surrender or possible alliances, or even just used it as a smoke break. Since the options are check boxed anyway, you could check the boxes at any time and when the turn phase would come up the computer would have the info already if you checked the boxes. Diplomacy in the games I played in was done via email and I received emails during every phase of the game. If you dropped diplomacy you could save a complete step = time. It will also make it so you would have to be on your toes and remembering to check the DoW boxes and Alliance boxes before your turn. Since most of us are adults it should not be an issue.

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/16/2008 10:52:04 AM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timewalker03

A possibility would also be the diplomacy phase. Since in the FtF game that was the time when people stepped out of the room and discussed terms for surrender or possible alliances, or even just used it as a smoke break. Since the options are check boxed anyway, you could check the boxes at any time and when the turn phase would come up the computer would have the info already if you checked the boxes. Diplomacy in the games I played in was done via email and I received emails during every phase of the game. If you dropped diplomacy you could save a complete step = time. It will also make it so you would have to be on your toes and remembering to check the DoW boxes and Alliance boxes before your turn. Since most of us are adults it should not be an issue.



I think we need to live with Diplomacy for EIANW, but you are right, players can chose to skip it.
Anyway manipulate minors still happens there. Offcourse in EIA-classic scenario we wont need this step, since this is EIH as far as i know.

Regards
Bresh

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/16/2008 12:25:23 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Hey guys:

I think I would set this so that EVEN if you skipped the land or the eco phases then somehow you still have to pay maintenance and supply. I'll look at how to do this.

Maybe we should prevent the skipping of the land and eco phases???





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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



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Post #: 7
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/16/2008 2:42:10 PM   
timewalker03

 

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If you choose not to move and are foraging, then there is no maintenance until the eco phase when you pay for counters. The relative way to look at this is you feed your troops, you move your troops, you fight battles. The first two can be looked at in a different order but it is all the same. the move determines cost, but the cost is really for the supply of the troops. If your troops don't move then you should have the choice of skipping the phase and autoforage. If you are at war, then land phase is important. if you are at peace then big stack need is less and you should be looking to seperate stacks to reduce cost and allow for successful foraging rolls. I believe if you are at peace the need for Eco and Land may not be necessary, but at war it should be madatory that both phaese are played.

As far as diplomacy goes, if you made skipping it an option it would speed up play by possibly removing a step. if you are in need of the step, to manipulate or DOW then you would keep the step. One thing though would need to be be able to function though. If as an example France declares war on Austria you would still have to allow for the call to allies step wether the player skipped it or not. Diplomacy is a step that can be trimmed and would allow for leeway in doing so. It would just take planning on the part of players to make sure they did not make mistakes and if they do then they would have to work to rectify the situation.

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/16/2008 4:24:36 PM   
Jimmer

 

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I would not allow skipping of economics at all (except for Prussia). However, land and naval can both be skipped. Naval is easy, but land requires some extra thinking (on your part).

First, though, a point: These values should be cleared every turn after the phase is skipped, unless the player specifically checks a box that says "remember from turn to turn". Possibly even add "until May 1809" (insert month/year).

Anyhow, back to skipping, you can just do an "end of turn autoforage" and then an "end of turn 'pay for supply'" (in that order).

Now, if you implement the idea I presented elsewhere yesterday (allowing individual units to be foraged at values other than "auto"), then that would tie right into this.

You also might want to lift my comments about the reinforcement phase from the other thread when you get ready to implement. Reinforcement is not really skip-able unless it can be made contingent upon certain events NOT occuring.

< Message edited by Jimmer -- 10/18/2008 9:13:00 PM >


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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/18/2008 12:25:42 PM   
Dancing Bear

 

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Hi Marshall
any idea what the timing might be like on some of these ideas. My PBEM games are getting somewhat bogged down, and it would be good to see even some minor changes that would pick up the game speed.
Bear.

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/18/2008 9:26:23 PM   
Thresh

 

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If your skipping the land phase, you should indicate whether your troops are using supply or foraging.  Or be able to select which Corps  are foraging or using supply.

Todd

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Post #: 11
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/20/2008 1:21:02 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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I am going to prevent the skipping of the land and eco phases for now. (These phases are seldom skipped anyway).


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Thank you

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Outflank Strategy War Games



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Post #: 12
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/20/2008 1:26:53 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Hi Marshall
any idea what the timing might be like on some of these ideas. My PBEM games are getting somewhat bogged down, and it would be good to see even some minor changes that would pick up the game speed.
Bear.


I will look to see if I can squeeze this into 1.05. I am also trying to get the editor done for 1.05 as well but the skipping ability is pretty high on my list. I'll try to keep you guys posted on this.



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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



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Post #: 13
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/20/2008 4:05:48 PM   
Jimmer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timewalker03
If you choose not to move and are foraging, then there is no maintenance until the eco phase when you pay for counters.

This is incorrect. Try (as anybody but France) not moving a non-cavalry corps in one's controlled territory in a 3 zone in Winter or a 1 zone in summer. Both will potentially lose factors unless paid for.


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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/20/2008 4:13:14 PM   
Jimmer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I am going to prevent the skipping of the land and eco phases for now. (These phases are seldom skipped anyway).


The other thing to check, as someone stated above, is whether (for example) Spain skipping his diplomacy phase will cause a problem (since the final diplo tallies are all done during Spain's phase). Other phases that might matter:

France's reinforcement phase
Spain and Great Britain's naval phase
Spain and France's land phase
France or Spain's econ phase (I can't recall which one goes last).

However, if you can't figure out how to make that work, you can just grey out the check boxes for those nations and the appropriate phase (until you figure it out). We would still be dependent upon them taking their turn, but just having the others be able to skip would speed things up some.

One other thing: As each player takes his turn (for those taking turns), they need to be told who the next person to play is. Otherwise, we'll still have to wait while the Nth player down the list tries to figure out if it is his turn or not.

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/20/2008 6:21:28 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I am going to prevent the skipping of the land and eco phases for now. (These phases are seldom skipped anyway).


The other thing to check, as someone stated above, is whether (for example) Spain skipping his diplomacy phase will cause a problem (since the final diplo tallies are all done during Spain's phase). Other phases that might matter:

France's reinforcement phase
Spain and Great Britain's naval phase
Spain and France's land phase
France or Spain's econ phase (I can't recall which one goes last).

However, if you can't figure out how to make that work, you can just grey out the check boxes for those nations and the appropriate phase (until you figure it out). We would still be dependent upon them taking their turn, but just having the others be able to skip would speed things up some.

One other thing: As each player takes his turn (for those taking turns), they need to be told who the next person to play is. Otherwise, we'll still have to wait while the Nth player down the list tries to figure out if it is his turn or not.


I should be able to get deep enough here so that I do not have to check for all of the above BUT always set a LAST_PLAYER VAR based on skip settings




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Post #: 16
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/20/2008 7:53:14 PM   
Jimmer

 

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One other thing that you might need: For how long? In other words, when does the "skip flag" expire? This gets a little tricky, because what if you are skipping a phase when it comes time to unskip that phase?

I would recommend two "timer" type things.

Option 1: Since neither Land nor econ are going to change, you can have those two places be the ones where the game decides which phases (econ in an econ month, land in the other two months). This would be acceptable for a "you get to pick this value once per turn" mindset in the coding.

Option 2: Allow changes at any time, but with the proviso that

A)  They don't take effect until the XYZ phase of <this turn or next turn>, and
B)  They expire X months from now.

If you use option 2, you can have it appear mostly like option 1 if you set X in 2B to be 1 month. In other words, they get cleared the first time after this phase next month (whatever "this phase" means in context).

< Message edited by Jimmer -- 10/20/2008 7:54:59 PM >


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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/21/2008 12:27:54 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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I was thinking of two settings:

1. Skip one time.
2. Skip until disabled.



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Post #: 18
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/21/2008 3:39:11 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Those will work. But, be careful. There are some edge issues that need to be considered:

-  What happens if the person wants to turn a phase back on, but he has all of the phases between now and then turned off?

-  At what point does a change take effect? If I'm in diplomacy, and I tell it to skip diplomacy for 1 turn, what happens? Does it skip the rest of the current diplo phase? Or, will it skip NEXT diplo?

You probably should get some comments on these before implementing anything, to keep from shooting yourself in the foot. :)

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/21/2008 10:23:21 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Those will work. But, be careful. There are some edge issues that need to be considered:

-  What happens if the person wants to turn a phase back on, but he has all of the phases between now and then turned off?

-  At what point does a change take effect? If I'm in diplomacy, and I tell it to skip diplomacy for 1 turn, what happens? Does it skip the rest of the current diplo phase? Or, will it skip NEXT diplo?

You probably should get some comments on these before implementing anything, to keep from shooting yourself in the foot. :)


Very good points. At this time you cannot skip the land phase or the eco phases so you would always have the option to change in the land phase.




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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/21/2008 11:47:45 PM   
gwheelock

 

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I would also suggest that a new "major event" (such as a new DOW  upon a nation from someone)
would clear ALL of that player's "skip" flags.  If a player REALLY wants to skip phases under those circumstances
he can reset the flags on his next phase.

There may be other cases where you would want to autoclear the flags as well
(missing an economic loss roll? Other Suggestions?)

< Message edited by gwheelock -- 10/21/2008 11:50:10 PM >

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/22/2008 1:35:29 AM   
Jimmer

 

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And, actually, along with Gwheelock's suggestion, how about a table of "possible events" that might cause one to change ones mind? For example, list

I get declared war upon
I declare war upon someone else (due to having the value checked in my diplomacy settings)
etc.

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/22/2008 12:57:06 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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These are also good points! I do not know if I have the space for an entire list but I can see that new DOWs on me or from me should disable all skip settings.

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Post #: 23
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/22/2008 4:05:01 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Right. There may be more, but those are the two that were most obvious. We'll probably find others as people start actually using the new capability.

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/23/2008 2:11:04 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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If you can't skip the land and eco phases, that leaves the diplomacy, reinforcement and naval phases. I can see diplomacy and naval phases being straight forward (the diplomacy options could be set during the previous phase, (except DOW's), and naval is likely the easiest of the lot).

But what will happen to reinforcements that are due in a month that is skipped, will they be carried forward to the next turn?

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/23/2008 12:57:41 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Perhaps if reinforcements are due then I will disable the skip setting otherwise they would "expire"


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Post #: 26
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/23/2008 2:59:35 PM   
Jimmer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Perhaps if reinforcements are due then I will disable the skip setting otherwise they would "expire"


That's a good idea. Just grey out the box.

Also, though, you will need to skip the skip if you have implemented any sort of ongoing skips.

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/23/2008 8:24:00 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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That's actually what I meant. At an end turn point, I will review reinforcement skips and forces that are coming up then disable accordingly. This would cover the "skip until stopped" settings as well.


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Post #: 28
RE: PBEM skipping - 10/24/2008 12:32:40 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

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I guess this has the advantage of also covering reinforcements you get when you gain control of a minor during the diplomacy phase. I would have prefered to carry forward reinforcements because this helps more with the game speed, but can live with the auto disable reinforcements if a player has reinforcements due. Maybe this could idea can be looked at again in the future.

On a related note, Marshall you mentioned inplementing the skipping relatively quickly (or at least perhaps for version 1.05), but i don't recall what was said about the timing for assigning a backup or auxiliary player to cover turns when someone was away.

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RE: PBEM skipping - 10/24/2008 12:52:09 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

I guess this has the advantage of also covering reinforcements you get when you gain control of a minor during the diplomacy phase. I would have prefered to carry forward reinforcements because this helps more with the game speed, but can live with the auto disable reinforcements if a player has reinforcements due. Maybe this could idea can be looked at again in the future.

On a related note, Marshall you mentioned inplementing the skipping relatively quickly (or at least perhaps for version 1.05), but i don't recall what was said about the timing for assigning a backup or auxiliary player to cover turns when someone was away.


I haven't tackled the aux player issue yet. I would like to implement the skipping features with the editor then perhaps look at the aux player settings.


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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 30
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