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Air Unit Transfer Question

 
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Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 1:29:48 AM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		An enemy LCU has just moved into a base hex at which I have an air unit that has both damaged and undamaged planes. If I click the 'Transfer to Base' button for this unit, I am presented with a list apparently consisting only of bases within air transfer range of the flyable planes. Thus, I can only evacuate undamaged aircraft. Damaged aircraft (together with the vital pilots, who outnumber the damaged machines), can only be evacuated in dribs and drabs as they repair, or will be lost with the base if it changes hands. Loss of the rail transfer capability seems to result from the arrival of an enemy LCU in-hex. Paradoxically, I can still transfer air units into the base by rail. This seems inconsistent to me. If I can crate aircraft and transport them into the base by rail, why can't I crate them and transport them out of it? Can anyone explain?

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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 3:54:48 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2451
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

An enemy LCU has just moved into a base hex at which I have an air unit that has both damaged and undamaged planes. If I click the 'Transfer to Base' button for this unit, I am presented with a list apparently consisting only of bases within air transfer range of the flyable planes. Thus, I can only evacuate undamaged aircraft. Damaged aircraft (together with the vital pilots, who outnumber the damaged machines), can only be evacuated in dribs and drabs as they repair, or will be lost with the base if it changes hands. Loss of the rail transfer capability seems to result from the arrival of an enemy LCU in-hex. Paradoxically, I can still transfer air units into the base by rail. This seems inconsistent to me. If I can crate aircraft and transport them into the base by rail, why can't I crate them and transport them out of it? Can anyone explain?



I have no problem transferring damaged air units by rail as long as there is a rail connection. Note that you have to hit the transfer button twice: once to transfer the undamaged a/c by air and the second time to transfer the damaged ones by rail. It has been a while since I transferred by rail out of an enemy occupied hex but I don't recall it being a problem; in this case, is the exit rail hexside closed due to the path the enemy unit took to enter the hex?

(in reply to Local Yokel)
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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 3:57:32 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5472
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		There are ways to get the damaged planes out. Rail is one (probably the only one that wouldnt be considered "cheating" by 1 player or another). I can think of at least 2 other ways that some would say "unfair" to, so I wont post them. Both these other ways has been corrected in AE BTW.

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Post #: 3
RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 8:35:25 AM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		Yes, I too can think of a couple of a couple of controversial steps that might be taken .

Pompack, I've been regularly doing a double transfer from this base so as to rotate both the undamaged and damaged components of a unit to a rear base, in just the way you suggest. I lost the ability to perform the second (rail-borne) transfer as soon as the enemy LCU moved into the hex. That LCU moved into the base from the hex lying to the north-east, whilst the rail connection into it lies to the west, so I don't think this can be an explanation. And if it were, rail transport into the hex ought to be similarly inhibited.

This gives me an excuse to vent my spleen on another feature of the game: the absence of any indication of an enemy unit's progress when marching. There's a world of difference between "They're 50 miles away" and "They're only 5 miles away!", but you get no indication of this however intensively you reconnoitre. I'd be quite happy for a report of marching progress being subject to FOW, but it's unrealistic for a unit suddenly to arrive in your vicinity.

Thanks chaps; looks like I may have found another anomaly - anyone else encountered this?

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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 12:50:22 PM   
floydg

 

Posts: 1693
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline 		Are there multiple paths to the expected destination? Maybe the same land movement routines are being used and the ememy-occupied hex is on the "shortest" path...

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Post #: 5
RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 1:20:37 PM   
USS America


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Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

Are there multiple paths to the expected destination? Maybe the same land movement routines are being used and the ememy-occupied hex is on the "shortest" path...


This sounds like the most likely cause of the issue to me.

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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 1:29:55 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3426
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		Out of curiosity, what are those other methods you allure to?

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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 1:50:20 PM   
undercovergeek

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Out of curiosity, what are those other methods you allure to?


i was thinking the same thing my sneaky WitP colleague!!!

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Post #: 8
RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 1:59:44 PM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
Status: offline 		Think there may be some misunderstanding here.

I'm talking about transfers of air units: you click the 'Transfer to Base' button and get a list of bases within transfer range, either by air or by rail (if rail transfer is feasible). Any transfer that occurs is immediate, and (if by air) re-locates flyable aircraft to the selected base. In this case, damaged aircraft remain in situ but could be evacuated by a second, rail-borne transfer in the same turn. That is, unless an enemy LCU is present in the hex, which seems to prevent any rail transfers.

So, I can't see how any land movement routines can affect the transfer. Either you get a list of bases to which you can transfer, or you don't. For damaged aircraft, I didn't.

The other methods for 'getting out of Dodge' may include withdrawal or disbanding. You might well object to these courses, but they're an unsatisfactory solution in any case. In a port hex you could load the unit aboard ship. I'm sure my worthy foe has already worked out the base in question, but if there's any doubt I may as well own up to it being Myitkyina (AB extended map).

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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 2:22:32 PM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Out of curiosity, what are those other methods you allure to?


Don't kill the messenger, but one is if you fly out the parent unit, then upgrade the aircraft type, all the pilots from the stranded fragment will re-join the parent, and all the damaged planes will go back into the pool. Kinda gamey.

I also could never figure out in WITP how 15 pilots could fly to a new base in one Zero, but that's for another day

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Post #: 10
RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 2:25:08 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Out of curiosity, what are those other methods you allure to?


i was thinking the same thing my sneaky WitP colleague!!!


Well, 1 of them isnt terribly clever, and most people know about it, so:

You transfer the air unit to a base with 20,000+ supplies and upgrade the unit. That sucks all the fragments in. Then (if you want) you convert the unit back. This doesnt always work in a PDU off game as there may not be an a/c type to upgrade to. Edit: and it doesnt work in AE. In AE you have to have all the fragments in the parent before you can upgrade.

The other method works PDUs on or off, but I will take that secret to the grave. It doesnt work in AE however.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 9/4/2008 2:26:49 PM >

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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 2:57:25 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I also could never figure out in WITP how 15 pilots could fly to a new base in one Zero, but that's for another day


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Post #: 12
RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 4:34:28 PM   
Mogami


Posts: 12608
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Here is unit preparing to transfer excess pilots




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 13
RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 5:14:23 PM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/4/2008 6:25:34 PM   
cantona2


Posts: 3426
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From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		:D

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RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/5/2008 12:44:21 AM   
floydg

 

Posts: 1693
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Middletown, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

Think there may be some misunderstanding here.

I'm talking about transfers of air units: you click the 'Transfer to Base' button and get a list of bases within transfer range, either by air or by rail (if rail transfer is feasible). Any transfer that occurs is immediate, and (if by air) re-locates flyable aircraft to the selected base. In this case, damaged aircraft remain in situ but could be evacuated by a second, rail-borne transfer in the same turn. That is, unless an enemy LCU is present in the hex, which seems to prevent any rail transfers.

So, I can't see how any land movement routines can affect the transfer. Either you get a list of bases to which you can transfer, or you don't. For damaged aircraft, I didn't.

The other methods for 'getting out of Dodge' may include withdrawal or disbanding. You might well object to these courses, but they're an unsatisfactory solution in any case. In a port hex you could load the unit aboard ship. I'm sure my worthy foe has already worked out the base in question, but if there's any doubt I may as well own up to it being Myitkyina (AB extended map).


The rail movement needs to be over a path of connected rail hexes which you control. What I meant is that the program first may find the shortest rail path(s) between the current base and other connected bases and then it eliminates those bases in which that found path has an enemy occupied rail hex. I see this phenomenon all over my "hot" areas in China.

(in reply to Local Yokel)
Post #: 16
RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/5/2008 11:15:03 AM   
Local Yokel


Posts: 1494
Joined: 2/4/2007
From: Somerset, U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: floydg

The rail movement needs to be over a path of connected rail hexes which you control. What I meant is that the program first may find the shortest rail path(s) between the current base and other connected bases and then it eliminates those bases in which that found path has an enemy occupied rail hex. I see this phenomenon all over my "hot" areas in China.


OK, now I understand your point.

From Mandalay to Singapore via Johore I can trace an unbroken rail, road and trail path consisting of exclusively-Japanese ZOC's. The same is true from Mandalay on to Myitkyina, save that the Myitkyina hex is also an Allied ZOC. I can rail-transfer an air unit from Mandalay to Singapore. I can air-transfer flyable aircraft from Myitkyina to bases within their maximum range. What I can't do is a rail-transfer of the damaged remnant. Nor can I rail-transfer the entire unit from Myitkyina to a base beyond its maximum flying range.

In southern Malaya I have a short-legged dive bomber unit. I can rail-transfer it into Myitkyina. The only enemy-occupied hex along the route is the Myitkina hex itself. If the presence of the enemy LCU at Myitkyina is what inhibits the rail-transfer of my air unit from that base, then logically it should also inhibit any rail-transfer of a unit into the base, but the game treats the two cases inconsistently.

IRL, such an inconsistency would be absurd. If the code is working in the way you suggest, then it appears to omit the destination hex from those it tests for enemy presence, since otherwise it would prevent a rail-transfer into Myitkyina.

So, given this apparent inconsistency in the way the game works, would it be gamey to resort to the 'air-transfer then convert' mechanism to get the damaged aircraft out?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Here is unit preparing to transfer excess pilots







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Post #: 17
RE: Air Unit Transfer Question - 9/5/2008 9:12:42 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5472
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, rail has nothing to do with it (directly). You can "rail move" (in WitP anyways) between 2 bases as long as it is less than 100 land movement points. So you can transfer between bases on Guadalcanal for example even though no rail line or road for that matter exists between them.

Now in AE, you have to have a rail line.

(in reply to Local Yokel)
Post #: 18
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