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RE: AI for MWIF - Poland

 
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RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/11/2008 11:57:47 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses?†

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.† The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.

Yes. Capturing Berlin on impulse #2 is not unheardof.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 61
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 6:08:00 AM   
peskpesk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses?†

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.† The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.


The polish units donít just want to wander into Germany in fear of risking giving the +.025 enemy in home country Production Multiple or the +0.25 Enemy land attack bonus if the attack a GE unit.

I experimented with a Southern Marauder defence, in Katowice is the 1-4 INF DIV and the 3-4 CAV, the plan was to go for conquer Czechoslovakia or to destroy the oil filed but supply is a issue, the interesting hexes is just out of one impulse reach for the polish units. May be if the HQI also was in Katowice , but the defence of the rest of Poland is very weak. And itís easy for the German to spoil the plan.

* Southern Marauder defence





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 62
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 9:55:21 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses?†

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.† The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.


The polish units donít just want to wander into Germany in fear of risking giving the +.025 enemy in home country Production Multiple or the +0.25 Enemy land attack bonus if the attack a GE unit.

I experimented with a Southern Marauder defence, in Katowice is the 1-4 INF DIV and the 3-4 CAV, the plan was to go for conquer Czechoslovakia or to destroy the oil filed but supply is a issue, the interesting hexes is just out of one impulse reach for the polish units. May be if the HQI also was in Katowice , but the defence of the rest of Poland is very weak. And itís easy for the German to spoil the plan.

* Southern Marauder defence





Well, if you put the 3-4 where the 3-3 is, it can reach Berlin. I'll give the Germans the production multiple if I can destroy a Berlin factory.

I notice that the German player here is quite a'feared of the the Poles, since he built all 3 of its forts along the Oder.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 63
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 11:43:12 AM   
Orm


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Putting the cavalry in Poznan with the option to move to Berlin could indeed be included into Polish setups and be part of the AI consideration. It does not weaken the defence of Poland by beeing setup in Poznan so you do not lose anything by doing so (except some mobility that Poland seldom has use for anyway).

But before a Polish Unit advances into Germany it should look into if there is any real gains to be made by doing so.

The Sequence of play makes it tricky to now if it is worth to advance into Germany (especially if you play with that you can save oil).

In the end of turn you do things in this order.
1) Production
2) Conquest
3) Factory Destruction (remember that a corps must be in supply to destroy a factory and can only destroy a blue factory)

Let me give 2 examples why the AI should avoid advancing into Germany.

Example 1:
1) A Polish unit captures Berlin and is in supply from Poznan. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factories in Berlin but make up for the factory production lost with higher production multiple. (Germanys production goes form 17 to 20 gaining 3 build points and may save some oil for the factories not producing).
2) Poland survies to fight on.
3) No factory is destroyed by the Polish unit in Berlin because all factories in Berlin are red in MWIF.

Example 2:
1) A Polish unit captures another city with a blue factory (ex. Stettin) and is in supply from Poznan. Germany captures Lodz and Warsaw. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factory in Stettin but gains more production with the higher production multiple (Prod goes from 17 to 22 (not counting the polish factory) and saves some extra oil).
2) Poland is conquered and the polish unit in Stettin is removed.
3) No factory is destroyed.

In the above example Germany could perhaps set the Polish unit in Stettin out of supply if he feared he could not conquer Poland during this turn. With the option of saving oil Germany lose little (just delayed production) with a unit out of supply in Stettin.

-Orm

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 64
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 1:16:43 PM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Putting the cavalry in Poznan with the option to move to Berlin could indeed be included into Polish setups and be part of the AI consideration. It does not weaken the defence of Poland by beeing setup in Poznan so you do not lose anything by doing so (except some mobility that Poland seldom has use for anyway).

But before a Polish Unit advances into Germany it should look into if there is any real gains to be made by doing so.


-Orm


All this is entirely logical but since it is most likely to occur against a newbie we should not underestimate the salutary effect of the AI taking Berlin!

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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 65
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 5:06:25 PM   
brian brian

 

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Katowice is still a good place to set up though...with lots of Germans in East Prussia, a few in Silesia, slow Germans in Czechoslovakia and rain on the second Axis impulse you are more likely to cost the Germans some resource points than anything else the Poles can do. They just ned to stay in Katowice and probably get a favorably poor combat roll on the German's part. If the rain comes and the Germans are still in the Katowice area after a good combat roll they might not make it to the Lodz/Warsaw area later in the turn.

Or with no one south of Katowice they might be able to occupy Brno and put Vienna in a ZoC if the Germans are really, really unprepared in the south.
(this wouldn't generate the enemy-unit-in-supply-in-home-country production bonus but would take two German factories off-line...Prague and the resource hex to the West might also be in range with two moves)


< Message edited by brian brian -- 9/12/2008 6:39:25 PM >

(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 66
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 6:26:42 PM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Putting the cavalry in Poznan with the option to move to Berlin could indeed be included into Polish setups and be part of the AI consideration. It does not weaken the defence of Poland by beeing setup in Poznan so you do not lose anything by doing so (except some mobility that Poland seldom has use for anyway).

But before a Polish Unit advances into Germany it should look into if there is any real gains to be made by doing so.

The Sequence of play makes it tricky to now if it is worth to advance into Germany (especially if you play with that you can save oil).

In the end of turn you do things in this order.
1) Production
2) Conquest
3) Factory Destruction (remember that a corps must be in supply to destroy a factory and can only destroy a blue factory)

Let me give 2 examples why the AI should avoid advancing into Germany.

Example 1:
1) A Polish unit captures Berlin and is in supply from Poznan. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factories in Berlin but make up for the factory production lost with higher production multiple. (Germanys production goes form 17 to 20 gaining 3 build points and may save some oil for the factories not producing).
2) Poland survies to fight on.
3) No factory is destroyed by the Polish unit in Berlin because all factories in Berlin are red in MWIF.

Example 2:
1) A Polish unit captures another city with a blue factory (ex. Stettin) and is in supply from Poznan. Germany captures Lodz and Warsaw. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factory in Stettin but gains more production with the higher production multiple (Prod goes from 17 to 22 (not counting the polish factory) and saves some extra oil).
2) Poland is conquered and the polish unit in Stettin is removed.
3) No factory is destroyed.

In the above example Germany could perhaps set the Polish unit in Stettin out of supply if he feared he could not conquer Poland during this turn. With the option of saving oil Germany lose little (just delayed production) with a unit out of supply in Stettin.

-Orm


is it a bug that there are 3 red factories in berlin ..... it looks wrong

_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 67
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 8:25:36 PM   
composer99


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No, in tabletop WIF:FE all the factories in Berlin are red.

But yes, it means they can't be blown up by the Poles. Only strategic bombardment can do for them.

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~ Composer99

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 68
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 10:59:06 PM   
michaelbaldur


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that is just wrong

germany has always had 19 factories ...13 blue and 6 red .... when have it changed to 11 blue and 8 red ....???

...and I think that the rules said that there can only be 1 red factories in each hex

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 9/12/2008 11:15:51 PM >


_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 69
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/12/2008 11:32:53 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

that is just wrong

germany has always had 19 factories ...13 blue and 6 red .... when have it changed to 11 blue and 8 red ....???

...and I think that the rules said that there can only be 1 red factories in each hex

All factories from Berlin are red since 2004.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 70
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/14/2008 7:05:44 AM   
peskpesk


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Iím thinking about a rule for the Polish planes setup, here is a start to the discussion going.

Other factor to include could be if the Polish planes are fight (the number of GE fighter), the risk of ground strikes during a forward setup etc, etc.


Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

IF USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse one OR
USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse two AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one

THEN

Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

IF The Polish planes is in Eastern Poland AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one AND
At least one of A OR B below

A)
Germany has a two organized LandUnit AND
They are can each reach a different Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
They are not blocked by ZOC AND
They are in supply or can be put in supply

B)
Germany has a organized LandUnit AND
It can each reach a t Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
Ití not blocked by ZOC AND
Itísin supply or can be put in supply

THEN

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

--Forward- Or Rearsetup for Polish planes
* Forward setup is considered when A or B

A) Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase
B) Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before polish planes are rebased



_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 71
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/14/2008 1:26:10 PM   
Plain Ian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

No, in tabletop WIF:FE all the factories in Berlin are red.

But yes, it means they can't be blown up by the Poles. Only strategic bombardment can do for them.


Well the allied bombers will have to use Tallboys or something as it looks like the factories are underground? I can't see any factories in Berlin in Peskpesk's screenshots? Only a resource which looks like it should be in the hex to the east?

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 72
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/14/2008 1:40:45 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian
Well the allied bombers will have to use Tallboys or something as it looks like the factories are underground? I can't see any factories in Berlin in Peskpesk's screenshots? Only a resource which looks like it should be in the hex to the east?

This hex is not Berlin. Berlin is 1 hex to the west.

(in reply to Plain Ian)
Post #: 73
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/14/2008 8:01:07 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Iím thinking about a rule for the Polish planes setup, here is a start to the discussion going.

Other factor to include could be if the Polish planes are fight (the number of GE fighter), the risk of ground strikes during a forward setup etc, etc.


Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

IF USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse one OR
USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse two AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one

THEN

Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

IF The Polish planes is in Eastern Poland AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one AND
At least one of A OR B below

A)
Germany has a two organized LandUnit AND
They are can each reach a different Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
They are not blocked by ZOC AND
They are in supply or can be put in supply

B)
Germany has a organized LandUnit AND
It can each reach a t Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
Ití not blocked by ZOC AND
Itísin supply or can be put in supply

THEN

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

--Forward- Or Rearsetup for Polish planes
* Forward setup is considered when A or B

A) Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase
B) Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before polish planes are rebased



Your impulse numbers are slightly off. The Axis moves during the odd impulses and the Allies during the even. The USSR can only occupy eastern Poland on even impulses.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 74
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/14/2008 8:26:31 PM   
peskpesk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Iím thinking about a rule for the Polish planes setup, here is a start to the discussion going.

Other factor to include could be if the Polish planes are fight (the number of GE fighter), the risk of ground strikes during a forward setup etc, etc.


Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

IF USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse one OR
USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse two AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one

THEN

Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

IF The Polish planes is in Eastern Poland AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one AND
At least one of A OR B below

A)
Germany has a two organized LandUnit AND
They are can each reach a different Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
They are not blocked by ZOC AND
They are in supply or can be put in supply

B)
Germany has a organized LandUnit AND
It can each reach a t Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
Ití not blocked by ZOC AND
Itísin supply or can be put in supply

THEN

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

--Forward- Or Rearsetup for Polish planes
* Forward setup is considered when A or B

A) Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase
B) Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before polish planes are rebased



Your impulse numbers are slightly off. The Axis moves during the odd impulses and the Allies during the even. The USSR can only occupy eastern Poland on even impulses.


I intended to write allied before impulse in the text.

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 9/14/2008 8:29:58 PM >


_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

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Post #: 75
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/16/2008 5:49:23 PM   
npilgaard

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Poland setup AI


Very nice work on all those minor-setups, peskpesk - seems like you have taken pretty much all possible variants into consideration for each and every minor country - impressive!

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Nikolaj

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Post #: 76
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/22/2008 4:34:24 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Very nice work on all those minor-setups, peskpesk - seems like you have taken pretty much all possible variants into consideration for each and every minor country - impressive!



Peskpesk has indeed made a great work on all these minor setups. He might also have included all realistic variants for each country. I do not think I can come up with any new variant at the moment.

However. Poland is the minor country which setup will be used most. It is in Polands (along with Belgium) setup that flaws will be exploited most. Therefore it would be good if as many as possible look over the AI logic and help improve it.

It would also be nice if anyone could come up with more variations.

-Orm

(in reply to npilgaard)
Post #: 77
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/22/2008 6:46:06 PM   
Dave3L

 

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Also, keep in mind that an empty Konigsberg can be ZoC'ed by a corps in Danzig, which would place all of the East Prussia units OoS.  That might only be an annoyance, but if Germany sets up a weaker than normal Northern Army, you could really throw a wrench in the works by doing that.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 78
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/22/2008 7:35:49 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave3L

Also, keep in mind that an empty Konigsberg can be ZoC'ed by a corps in Danzig, which would place all of the East Prussia units OoS.† That might only be an annoyance, but if Germany sets up a weaker than normal Northern Army, you could really throw a wrench in the works by doing that.


It can be a handy trick but East Prussia can be in supply anyway. They can get seasupply via the port in Memelī(depending on optional rules and cp placement). Depending on unit and placement in Germany they might even be able to link up with supply from a HQ that was placed in Germany.

I have a few times set up so the poles can ZOC into a empty Koningsberg. Then move with units from Germany (and HQ) so I could use the units in Prussia as I wanted even when they started OOS.

With that said I think it should be included in some setups with the AI script checking for overseas supply and so on.

-Orm

(in reply to Dave3L)
Post #: 79
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/22/2008 10:41:45 PM   
Incy

 

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There's a reserve in koenigsberg, I belive.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 80
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/23/2008 3:32:12 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy

There's a reserve in koenigsberg, I belive.



Yes, there is a reserve there. On the other hand, it does not set-up until the Allied DOWs on Germany at the start of the first Allied impulse, whereas the Poles set up on the German impulse. Thus, it is of no use in this situation. On the gripping hand ,* as pointed out by others above, it would be a major error on the part of Germany that would leave East Prussia out of supply.

* I just decided to add the explanation of the reference. I think it was Niven and Pournell who wrote The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand. The two science-fiction novels include 3-armed alliens with 2 hands set up for fine control / manipulation, and one real strong hand for grabbing things.

< Message edited by Mike Dubost -- 9/23/2008 3:42:52 AM >

(in reply to Incy)
Post #: 81
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 9/23/2008 4:32:00 PM   
brian brian

 

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The AI set-up for Poland is important and would be worth monitoring in the playtesting.

Try this one ... watch the Germans go heavy in East Prussia, medium around Breslau, set up for another campaign like Netherlands or Belgium or France or Yugoslavia, and light in Czechoslovakia. Then set up the extra Poles in Katowice. Poland is going to fall, always. The question is, how can you cost the Germans a few points of something, and maybe gain the Allies some goodies for the future? Remember that the production phase is before conquest, and you can't transport resources through a ZoC. Putting single stacked blocking units in clear terrain around the factories I don't think gains very much...even in bad weather the powerful German units can auto-kill any single Polish unit, losing only the time required. Worrying about trying to use the Vistula to Poland's advantage only works when the Germans are heavy in East Prussia; otherwise they just bulldoze straight across the center. When the Poles are double-stacked, the chances of actually hurting the Germans go up, and in a best-case scenario they get flipped/disorganized attacking a double stack, then the bad weather sets in. Also keep in mind that the CW might want to take a Naval impulse on their first go, to move some units and re-org some transports.

With a light East Prussian set-up, the same trick could work in Danzig...maybe the Polish navy might even survive the surprise impulse that way. But a key to the set-up is whether Germany is attempting any other campaign on the first turn. One way to analyze it is to simply count the factors adjacent to Poland, which is how some German players plan the campaign to begin with, figuring on a minimum of around 65-70 combat factors to subdue the Poles, leaving the rest for elsewhere. If Germany is up around 90-100, it doesn't really matter what the Poles do.

(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 82
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 10/3/2008 1:37:37 PM   
yvesp


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In a non France first setup, the foremost point in the polish setup is to delay the conquest of Poland.
It is not impossible to reach the end of Sept/Oct with Varshaw under siege, but uncaptured.
It has happened that bad weather rolls kept Varshaw alive and kicking till January/February.
I remember a game where Poland fell only in March/April ; needless to say that the German player was aghast (he did not commit nearly enough troops east to be overwhelming, trying for an early Benelux attack, and paid the price). Anyway, it all went to nothing when he rolled some lucky dice in France and took Paris in May/June...

It is a real pain for the German who sees the time fly by when he knows he'll have to shift all these units back to the western front. Idealy, he wants to begin that shift back in the first turn, at impulse three or four.

Doing so requires that the Poles actually use their airforce, for the exclusive defense of Varshaw, where they'll end up the turn (hopefully). The fighter has to be used to try and prevent any strike (after the surprise impulse) on Varshaw proper (the odds are poor, I know), or protect the bomber (which helps a lot against the first assault on Varshaw). The HQ is setup in Brest-Litovsk (protected by the woods against GS), the 5-3 somewhere in range of Varshaw, as at least one other units.

For the other units, I don't recall well (it has been long since I last played). The point of the whole setup is to force the german to chose between slow crowling in ZOCs or attempting assaults with odds that give a chance of flipping units.

Reaching Nov/Dec with Poland alive is a strategic success for the allies as it may delay the German juggernaut in it's strike west.
Such an objective must be accounted for by the AIO (i.e. it is more valuable than destroying one German unit or keeping one or two pilots alive).

Yves

(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 83
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 10/3/2008 7:08:55 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yvesp

In a non France first setup, the foremost point in the polish setup is to delay the conquest of Poland.
It is not impossible to reach the end of Sept/Oct with Varshaw under siege, but uncaptured.
It has happened that bad weather rolls kept Varshaw alive and kicking till January/February.
I remember a game where Poland fell only in March/April ; needless to say that the German player was aghast (he did not commit nearly enough troops east to be overwhelming, trying for an early Benelux attack, and paid the price). Anyway, it all went to nothing when he rolled some lucky dice in France and took Paris in May/June...

It is a real pain for the German who sees the time fly by when he knows he'll have to shift all these units back to the western front. Idealy, he wants to begin that shift back in the first turn, at impulse three or four.

Doing so requires that the Poles actually use their airforce, for the exclusive defense of Varshaw, where they'll end up the turn (hopefully). The fighter has to be used to try and prevent any strike (after the surprise impulse) on Varshaw proper (the odds are poor, I know), or protect the bomber (which helps a lot against the first assault on Varshaw). The HQ is setup in Brest-Litovsk (protected by the woods against GS), the 5-3 somewhere in range of Varshaw, as at least one other units.

For the other units, I don't recall well (it has been long since I last played). The point of the whole setup is to force the german to chose between slow crowling in ZOCs or attempting assaults with odds that give a chance of flipping units.

Reaching Nov/Dec with Poland alive is a strategic success for the allies as it may delay the German juggernaut in it's strike west.
Such an objective must be accounted for by the AIO (i.e. it is more valuable than destroying one German unit or keeping one or two pilots alive).

Yves


I agree completely.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 84
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 10/3/2008 8:13:50 PM   
Taxman66


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Yes, but if there is overwhelming German forces (particularly FTR) then you are better off sending the Polish planes into interment via. the Baltic States.

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Post #: 85
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 10/3/2008 9:31:14 PM   
yvesp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Yes, but if there†is overwhelming German forces (particularly FTR) then you are better off sending the Polish planes into interment via. the Baltic States.


Unless ground forces are overwhelming, using the polish air force is a very good bet.
* the loss of the pilots is not a sure thing
* using the polish air force costs the german some precious oil (not a big deal I know)
* using the polish air force forces the german to use these fighters which they'll likely have to rebase in the next turn to get them to the west front
* if the ground forces are not overwhelming, a success with a ground support may change the odds significantly enough to get a flip result

Hence, fleeing in the first allied impulse is just a way to ensure the german a cheap Polish victory.
I will almost always use the planes ; it's good if the pilots do survive. Otherwise, they'll have done their duty.

Yves


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Post #: 86
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 10/3/2008 9:41:00 PM   
Taxman66


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I think we'll have to agree to disagree; or perhaps I'm just used to 'conservative' German play where they do bring overwhelming ground and air forces.

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Post #: 87
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 10/3/2008 11:15:43 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I think we'll have to agree to disagree; or perhaps I'm just used to 'conservative' German play where they do bring overwhelming ground and air forces.

One of the things about coding for the AIO is that you have to allow for different choices by the human player. In particular, if the Polish air force is always based in the far northeast and immediately flees, then the human players will quickly learn that and place zero () fighters close to Poland.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 88
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 10/4/2008 2:53:47 AM   
brian brian

 

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with the 2d10 and fractional odds, a few points of ground support matter very little.

I have forgotten though that a Polish pilot lost in combat with a low result does go right on to the track, same as interning it, and the Poles will be flying over their own hexes. but against a Poland only set-up, they will be likely fighting at +3/-3 or possibly worse, and if they don't get killed, they have to land in Poland and then the 2 BP are lost. run the AI through the first two impulses and see what the expected BP return for each side is by flying the Poles and you'll probably lean towards saving the pilots eventually too. The odds they accomplish anything are low.

Since the Poles always set up after the Germans, if the Germans don't commit FTR cover to the Polish front then by all means make them pay for that.

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Post #: 89
RE: AI for MWIF - Poland - 10/4/2008 1:48:00 PM   
Neilster


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I'm uneasy about too much "gameyness" in the minor set-ups. We have to remember that these were proud countries with militaries whose purpose was first and foremost to defend their territory, not to scarper in some clever way to contribute to the strategic cause.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 90
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