Matrix Games

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'd have to -likely- agree agree with Terminus.  The only wrinkle being (and this is actually a question), what the the Japanese search patrols like in the morning of 12-07?  Did they actually patrols out (if the patrols were spotted, it would certainly give away the presense of Japanese ships nearby).

So if KB really was running with no eyes, just strike for PH, then it's -possible- that Enterprise could have done "something" (if she were to find and surprise KB).  What was KB's own CAP like that morning?

-F-

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Ahhh. You all miss the point. Sure, we would have lost the Enterprise, but likely would have spared the BBs. Besides, Enterprise would be back as an Essex in 18 months

quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret

...worms had machine guns?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Much better what if...

What if the USN were running regular patrols of fleet-class subs across the North Pacific (in training/preparation for the coming war) and spotted the KB as it left its home waters?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Much better what if...

What if the USN were running regular patrols of fleet-class subs across the North Pacific (in training/preparation for the coming war) and spotted the KB as it left its home waters?

Not far fetched, at all, IMO.

No, none of the subs would have torp'd a one of them, but it would have been pretty ugly, come opening day, had all those USAAF pursuit A/C been aloft when the first strike appeared.

That suggested, I'm not sure that the peacetime leadership of the U.S. military, forewarned, would have proved any more effective than MacArthur's crew in the Philippines.

We'll never know.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
One of the "PH conspiracy" websites I came accross maintains that KB had been sighted by a Dutch submarine (another site says it was a Dutch destroyer) days before the strike while crossing the North Pacific. What if this Dutch vessel had had enough fuel left to generate the electricity needed to get off a radio warning...

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
One of the "PH conspiracy" websites I came accross maintains that KB had been sighted by a Dutch submarine (another site says it was a Dutch destroyer) days before the strike while crossing the North Pacific. What if this Dutch vessel had had enough fuel left to generate the electricity needed to get off a radio warning...

I have read that a Russian freighter headed from the US West Coast to Vladivostok did encounter the KB headed to Hawaii. The Russians deperately wanted to remain neutral with the Japanese so the freighter did not report anything.

Bill

quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer

These are not the killer "What IF" situations. the real what if was letting the Jap Air commander have his way and let the third strike take out the fuel storage as he requested. Nothing would have moved out of PH for some time due to lack of fuel.
The Jap adm. told the air commander that they had been lucky in getting 2 strikes in and not knowing where at American Carriers were made a third strike would put the task force at risk. Its one of those moments like the German Panzers not being allowed to close the last French port at Dunkirk. Such is history.

Madgamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Excellent "what if"..Suppose the ONLY target had been the fuel storage tank yard, and forget those BB's altogether?
Just put subs between Hawaii and the American west coast and go for the tankers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I believe that Halsey was in command - they were ready. The SBDs were launched as ASW and the were to land at PH. They just got caught up in the attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Much better what if...

What if the USN were running regular patrols of fleet-class subs across the North Pacific (in training/preparation for the coming war) and spotted the KB as it left its home waters?

One of the "PH conspiracy" websites I came accross maintains that KB had been sighted by a Dutch submarine (another site says it was a Dutch destroyer) days before the strike while crossing the North Pacific. What if this Dutch vessel had had enough fuel left to generate the electricity needed to get off a radio warning...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Disclaimer : I know very little about the fueling or refueling of WW2 ships (or modern ones for that matter).  But...

If the storage tanks had been hit, yeah, that's bad.

But how much of that stuff in PH actually -has- to move?

Those BBs are going to remain seated, that's obvious enough.  With severe fuel shortage, you can't send them back to West Coast for a month, so fine, they sit.

Post attack, vs. either capital ships or the fuel farm, the useful ships in PH are
1.  Subs.  Yes, their torps don't work, but they don't know that.  Otherwise, US subs got into the action right off the bat.
2.  DDs.  It's reasonable to expect enemy sub activity around PH, esp when the tankers are due to arive.  So you having fuel for your DDs for ASW and escort would certainly be useful.
3.  Cruisers.  Mostly to escort your carriers, due to their speed and longer legs of DDs.

1.  What's the comperable fuel load of a sub vs. BB?  Or DD vs. BB.  (if subs run on diesel, what do the BBs run on?  Diesel? or something else?)  Let's say 70% of your fuel stores are destroyed.  My guess is, you've probably got plenty of fuel to refuel your subs several times, given that they don't guzzle like BBs.
2.  Your cruisers are your largest drinkers, you might have trouble getting these guys out.  Maybe you're limited in the number you can send out, or the range of your strike (so maybe no raids on Kwaj or Marcus as were historical).
3.  How much does yankee ingenuity count for?  Can you transfer the fuel from less fuel ships, and make it available for your more useful vessels?
4.  Tank farms are impressive to see, but (and I have no idea of the layout of PH in 1941), but how much is stored under-ground?  I know at MacDill AFB there are some impressive looking fuel tanks, but the reality is, a lot of it is stored underground and doesn't even look like a storage tank.

My main point being that, if you've got enough fuel to run hundreds of ships all over the globe 9on a good day), even if your fuel reserves are crippled, how much fuel does it really take to run the most critical few dozen (that are going to produce the most results), when those ships (probably) aren't your primary guzzelers anyway?

Just asking, I really don't know anything at all about this sort of thing.

-F-

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Disclaimer : I know very little about the fueling or refueling of WW2 ships (or modern ones for that matter). But...

If the storage tanks had been hit, yeah, that's bad.

But how much of that stuff in PH actually -has- to move?

Those BBs are going to remain seated, that's obvious enough. With severe fuel shortage, you can't send them back to West Coast for a month, so fine, they sit.

Post attack, vs. either capital ships or the fuel farm, the useful ships in PH are
1. Subs. Yes, their torps don't work, but they don't know that. Otherwise, US subs got into the action right off the bat.
2. DDs. It's reasonable to expect enemy sub activity around PH, esp when the tankers are due to arive. So you having fuel for your DDs for ASW and escort would certainly be useful.
3. Cruisers. Mostly to escort your carriers, due to their speed and longer legs of DDs.

1. What's the comperable fuel load of a sub vs. BB? Or DD vs. BB. (if subs run on diesel, what do the BBs run on? Diesel? or something else?) Let's say 70% of your fuel stores are destroyed. My guess is, you've probably got plenty of fuel to refuel your subs several times, given that they don't guzzle like BBs.
2. Your cruisers are your largest drinkers, you might have trouble getting these guys out. Maybe you're limited in the number you can send out, or the range of your strike (so maybe no raids on Kwaj or Marcus as were historical).
3. How much does yankee ingenuity count for? Can you transfer the fuel from less fuel ships, and make it available for your more useful vessels?
4. Tank farms are impressive to see, but (and I have no idea of the layout of PH in 1941), but how much is stored under-ground? I know at MacDill AFB there are some impressive looking fuel tanks, but the reality is, a lot of it is stored underground and doesn't even look like a storage tank.

My main point being that, if you've got enough fuel to run hundreds of ships all over the globe 9on a good day), even if your fuel reserves are crippled, how much fuel does it really take to run the most critical few dozen (that are going to produce the most results), when those ships (probably) aren't your primary guzzelers anyway?

Just asking, I really don't know anything at all about this sort of thing.

-F-