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Just Some Darned Cool Pictures

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Just Some Darned Cool Pictures Page: [1]
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Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 9:19:22 PM   
niceguy2005


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A Japanese Corvette about to have a bad day as a B-25 attacks....




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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 9:20:27 PM   
niceguy2005


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Japanese Corvette suffers a direct hit...




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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 9:21:40 PM   
niceguy2005


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Low level parachute bomb attack. Kiss Betty goodbye...




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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 9:22:34 PM   
niceguy2005


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and the very, very cool website where these pics are from...

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Rabaul/USA-P-Rabaul-12.html


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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 9:34:47 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Low level parachute bomb attack. Kiss Betty goodbye...





.....not to mention the poor souls in the tents.

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 10:41:47 PM   
Feinder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

A Japanese Corvette about to have a bad day as a B-25 attacks....





Gah. A low level attack vs. shipping. That is sooooo gamey.

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 10:54:19 PM   
Brady


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Ya but look at all the parachutes on the ground. Several duds in that lot. Aparently duds were fairly common, if the arming mechanism did not get enough revulations in priour to the bomblanding they would not go off.

Rodman notes this in his work on p. 124.

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 10:54:31 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Gah. A low level attack vs. shipping. That is sooooo gamey.

Yeah, that's because they never did it and the allies never hit anything

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/14/2008 11:30:40 PM   
Brady


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Low leval Bombing in Stock is prety darn lame, and the bombers are way more acurate than they should be, it is truly gamey. The adaption or preferance for Skip bombing came out of the fact that Low leval, deamed Low by the USAF as under 2,000 ft, was not acurate enough and exposed the bombers to much to AA fire, thus skip bombing became the prefered option for such atack platforms (2E bombers, and even 4E bombers , the later at night in limited numbers). Historicaly Large Bombers could not hit ships at sea with any degree of acuracery or consistancy, even well traied and very practed early war Japanese crewes had dificulity with this, of all the bombs droped on the PoW And Repulse only a very few hit.

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 1:06:31 AM   
Feinder


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Brady, I believe the arguments about naval bombing have flayed the horse, it's decomposed, fed the worms, which pooped, and fed the grass, upon which the next horse has fed upon, grown old and died, and has been turned into glue, which was used to seal the packaging of the latest copy sold of WitP.

I'm quite sure my comment regarding the picture was meant in jest.
-F-

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 1:11:16 AM   
Gem35


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Brady, I believe the arguments about naval bombing have flayed the horse, it's decomposed, fed the worms, which pooped, and fed the grass, upon which the next horse has fed upon, grown old and died, and has been turned into glue, which was used to seal the packaging of the latest copy sold of WitP.

I'm quite sure my comment regarding the picture was meant in jest.
-F-






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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 1:18:25 AM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Low leval Bombing in Stock is prety darn lame, and the bombers are way more acurate than they should be, it is truly gamey. The adaption or preferance for Skip bombing came out of the fact that Low leval, deamed Low by the USAF as under 2,000 ft, was not acurate enough and exposed the bombers to much to AA fire, thus skip bombing became the prefered option for such atack platforms (2E bombers, and even 4E bombers , the later at night in limited numbers). Historicaly Large Bombers could not hit ships at sea with any degree of acuracery or consistancy, even well traied and very practed early war Japanese crewes had dificulity with this, of all the bombs droped on the PoW And Repulse only a very few hit.

I don't recall a great many bombs being dropped on POW. Mostly torpedoes, but I recall a hit percentage of something like 20%. I would call that pretty good. There of course have been multiple disucssions about that attack on this board and the hit counts have been posted several times.

Edit: as long as we're discussing it, it is also quite well documented that 2E bomber attacks were quite accurate and deadly. Early in the war the Japanese plastered just about anything at sea in the DEI. Most fleeing ships had to travel at night and hide in coves during the day to have any chance of survival.

By the end of 42 the Allies were torching about any merchant within range with B-25s, 26s, A-20s and even P-39s. Although skip bombing was a tactic that was still making its way into use, low level bomb attacks, well under 2000 ft occurred and wreaked havoc.

The distinction of course is warship vs merchant. The accounts of cruisers or larger warships being sunk by LBA are few. This is probably due general ineffectiveness of bombs, and a desire to stay away from AA fire, rather than an inability to hit. It is also certainly true that early allied LBA attacks were an exercise in futility as many of them occured at 10k ft or more. However, in the battle of the Bismark Sea the DDs were sunk right along with the transports, all by LBA. Similar results occured in the Philipines.

The IJ LBA attacks only ceased to be a serious threat when the allies gained air superiority. This caused major problems with keeping Guadalcanal Canal supplied in the early going.


Edited again to clean up horrible writing.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 8/15/2008 1:30:00 AM >


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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 1:49:19 AM   
Brady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Brady, I believe the arguments about naval bombing have flayed the horse, it's decomposed, fed the worms, which pooped, and fed the grass, upon which the next horse has fed upon, grown old and died, and has been turned into glue, which was used to seal the packaging of the latest copy sold of WitP.

I'm quite sure my comment regarding the picture was meant in jest.
-F-


Ya discusing this now is espichaly irelevent, after AE is released would be a more aproparate time, I should think, as it with its release so many topics like this old one will be compleatly diferent. Old Habits die hard.


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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 5:13:57 AM   
tanksone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Ya but look at all the parachutes on the ground. Several duds in that lot. Aparently duds were fairly common, if the arming mechanism did not get enough revulations in priour to the bomblanding they would not go off.

Rodman notes this in his work on p. 124.



Hi, perhaps they are delayed fuses....nice way to disable engies and anyone else that wondered by.





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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 5:19:21 PM   
Dili

 

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Wales+Repulse. 27 bomber planes 3 hits one of them against an already cripple and some of planes with double bomb load.So rate of 10% by attack and 5-10% by number of bombs. This is with an expert unit in naval attack.

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 5:38:39 PM   
Barb


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As for 2E and 4E bombers making low level skip bombing attacks. Imagine this:
1E Take fighter as sportcar or formula  monopost
1E fighter-bomber/dive/torpedo bombers as common car.
2E bomber as a truck
4E bomber as truck with trailer.
Then try to maneuvre all of them to a parking lot.
Make the parking lot maneuvring and trying to evade you.
I dont say it is impossible to hit something with 4E heavy loaded bomber, just it is not as easy as kiss my hand. And thats without AA fire trying to kill you







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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 5:53:13 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

A Japanese Corvette about to have a bad day as a B-25 attacks....





Gah. A low level attack vs. shipping. That is sooooo gamey.


Yeah...and the pilot is bound to take a HUGE morale hit.

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 6:16:47 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

As for 2E and 4E bombers making low level skip bombing attacks. Imagine this:
1E Take fighter as sportcar or formula monopost
1E fighter-bomber/dive/torpedo bombers as common car.
2E bomber as a truck
4E bomber as truck with trailer.
Then try to maneuvre all of them to a parking lot.
Make the parking lot maneuvring and trying to evade you.
I dont say it is impossible to hit something with 4E heavy loaded bomber, just it is not as easy as kiss my hand. And thats without AA fire trying to kill you







Makes one wonder then why the originators of the skip bombing tactic actually were flying a B-17.

Of course, I don't disagree with you, my preference would be to fly a B-25 on such a mission.

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 11:22:34 PM   
spence

 

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Questions should probably be addressed to these guys






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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/15/2008 11:24:21 PM   
spence

 

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Or perhaps Lt ELDER






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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/17/2008 4:37:42 AM   
Mark VII


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Sorta looks like a B-24 or the Navy version at 100-200 feet, thats about as gamey as it gets!

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Questions should probably be addressed to these guys







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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/17/2008 12:53:38 PM   
rjopel

 

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Hard to miss at that level I'd think.  But you'd almost have to be flying with the bombs fully armed in order for them to go off.

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/17/2008 8:21:34 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

I have no objections to low level bombing (i.e. "Skip Bombing") even from 2E and 4E bombers.

This is all historical and I am 100% OK with that!


But the main objection is that such attacks were, historically, mostly done against, again mostly, helpless targets that had none or few AA weapons (like low rifle caliber machine guns)...


Thus the problem is that in WitP simulation/wargame the 2E and 4E bombers on low level bombing (i.e. "Skip Bombing") enjoy tremendous success even against properly armed warships!

This is the core of the controversy - the 2E and 4E bombers are big and they don't maneuver greatly at sea level and their speed isn't stellar at sea level and they present big and juicy target for long time of their approach against warship that is properly armed with AA weapons!!!


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Just Some Darned Cool Pictures - 8/18/2008 5:07:40 AM   
Desertmole


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Actually the dud factor was pretty low. The bombs had a few second delay fuse so that the planes could vacate the area. No fun being shot down by your own bombs exploding. They also used a trick in Burma where they welded railroad spikes to the nose of the bombs so that they would stick in the ground when bombing railroads. Again, they used a delay fuse (IIRC, 5 seconds or so) to ensure the plane was not caught in the blast.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

Ya but look at all the parachutes on the ground. Several duds in that lot. Aparently duds were fairly common, if the arming mechanism did not get enough revulations in priour to the bomblanding they would not go off.

Rodman notes this in his work on p. 124.


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