Matrix Games Forums

Battle Academy 2 Out now!Legions of Steel ready for betaBattle Academy 2 gets trailers and Steam page!Deal of the Week Germany at WarSlitherine Group acquires Shenandoah StudioNew information and screenshots for Pike & ShotDeal of the Week Pride of NationsTo End All Wars Releasing on Steam! Slitherine is recruiting: Programmers requiredPandora: Eclipse of Nashira gets release date
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> John Tiller's Campaign Series >> An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/18/2008 8:24:38 PM   
XLVIII Pz. Korp


Posts: 154
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
So I'm playing "Counterattack at Hamich" and I disrupt a single American Inf. platoon in clear terrain. I assault the hex with two full strength engineers (morale 8) and the assault bounces. Am I surprised? yeah, but not as much as I would've been two weeks ago. Anyway, seeing how it's the last turn of the game, with a comfortable victory margin I figure just for kicks and giggles I’m gonna see how badly 5 SP's of empty halftracks get bounced by assaulting 2 disrupted infantry platoons (4 or 5 SP's?) and a leader defending in a wooded hex. Guess what? They blow 'em out?!? and push back the defenders stacked with a leader!!??

So where assault engineers fail in ideal circumstances the empty halftrack succeeds, in terrain favoring the defender to boot.

Man I have to go start forming my halftrack assault groups.

Like I said I just can’t get a good hold of what’s happening here.

Any explanations on this set of occurances?

< Message edited by XLVIII Pz. Korp -- 7/18/2008 8:27:00 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/18/2008 9:48:37 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 4180
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
Remember how an entire game of Avalon Hill's Afrika Korps hinged on getting that D-Back 2 result on the 2:1 attack on Tobruk? alot of it is in the die roll. This one is 10-sided IIRC.


_____________________________

simovitch


(in reply to XLVIII Pz. Korp)
Post #: 2
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 12:45:47 AM   
cw58

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 8/4/2007
From: Hanford, CA, US
Status: offline
I've ran several tests assaulting 0 AV (assault value) units like transport vehicles and mortars and ATGs. I tried it against units only and then against units stacked with a leader. Without a leader, many of the units did very well, retreating about half the time and losing a couple of SPs.

Stacked with a leader, in every case, the unit retreated. Or both were captured if the unit was incapable of movement. That's about 150 retreats or captures out of 150 assaults.

I think I'll run some tests against some infantry types. Would be interesting to see if leaders have a negative impact on them as well.

(in reply to XLVIII Pz. Korp)
Post #: 3
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 1:53:54 AM   
cw58

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 8/4/2007
From: Hanford, CA, US
Status: offline
OK, did a quick assault test in EF using a normal 6sp German rifle platoon. For the defense, I used 3 separate Russian Rifle 38 platoons, a MG 30 platoon and a 76mm Field Gun. All the defenders start with disrupted status. I ran the assaults on the defenders without a leader and then stacked with a leader (used commander levels 1-4).

Results:_________-SP_____Disrpt.__Retreat/Capt.___-SP___Disrpt____Retreat/Capture
3 Rifle 38 pltns_____3______4______3/0____________4_____4________12/0
MG 30 pltns________0______3______0/0____________1_____2________5/0__Ldr killed once
76mm FG__________1______1______0/0____________1_____2________4/5__Ldr killed once

These are the results of 5 assaults on each unit (total of 15 for Rifle 38).
Without leader results are on the left. Stacked with leader results on right.
The 76mm FG were always captured with a leader stacked.
As you can see, SP loss and disruptions are similar, but the retreat rate is drastically different. Without a leader, a unit retreats only 12% of the time, with a leader that jumps to 88%. So the moral of this story is: don't stack a leader with your troops, thinking he will stiffen your soldiers' resolve. For he will be the first to shout "Run away"!

Anyone else notice this?

(in reply to cw58)
Post #: 4
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 2:12:00 AM   
simovitch


Posts: 4180
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
Good catch - that is definitely not good. Any chance you could run the same test with 1.02?

_____________________________

simovitch


(in reply to cw58)
Post #: 5
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 3:51:04 AM   
cw58

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 8/4/2007
From: Hanford, CA, US
Status: offline
Yeah, shouldn't be a problem. I've still got 1.02 installed. I'll get back to you.

(in reply to simovitch)
Post #: 6
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 3:53:00 AM   
XLVIII Pz. Korp


Posts: 154
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
Now that's interesting. I wonder if that's by intent or a bug?

(in reply to cw58)
Post #: 7
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 4:05:53 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12901
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline
If it is intended, I could live with the explaination that NCOs and 90 day wonders hold their ground while figuring out what to do and COs try to preserve what they have for another day.

(in reply to XLVIII Pz. Korp)
Post #: 8
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 5:01:14 AM   
cw58

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 8/4/2007
From: Hanford, CA, US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cw58

OK, did a quick assault test in EF using a normal 6sp German rifle platoon. For the defense, I used 3 separate Russian Rifle 38 platoons, a MG 30 platoon and a 76mm Field Gun. All the defenders start with disrupted status. I ran the assaults on the defenders without a leader and then stacked with a leader (used commander levels 1-4).

Results:_________-SP_____Disrpt.__Retreat/Capt.___-SP___Disrpt____Retreat/Capture
3 Rifle 38 pltns_____3______4______3/0____________4_____4________12/0
MG 30 pltns________0______3______0/0____________1_____2________5/0__Ldr killed once
76mm FG__________1______1______0/0____________1_____2________4/5__Ldr killed once

These are the results of 5 assaults on each unit (total of 15 for Rifle 38).
Without leader results are on the left. Stacked with leader results on right.
The 76mm FG were always captured with a leader stacked.
As you can see, SP loss and disruptions are similar, but the retreat rate is drastically different. Without a leader, a unit retreats only 12% of the time, with a leader that jumps to 88%. So the moral of this story is: don't stack a leader with your troops, thinking he will stiffen your soldiers' resolve. For he will be the first to shout "Run away"!

Anyone else notice this?

This is the same test, this time done in EF 1.02b. Both 1.03 & 1.02b tests were done in clear terrain with open hexes for the Russians to retreat to.

In 1.02b, the German rifle platoon has an AV of 5, which is 1 more than in 1.03 (AV of 4). The Russian units have different names, but the same defense and assault values.

Results:_______-SP____Disrpt.__Retreat/Capture___-SP______Disrpt.____Retreat/Capture
3 Rifle 39 pltns___3_______4____11/0______________0_________0_______12/0
MG 39 pltn______2________2____5/0_______________2_________3_______5/0
76mm FG_______3________2____0/5_______________0_________3_______5/5*

These are the results of 5 assaults on each unit (total 15 for Rifle 39).
Without leader results are on the left. With leader stacked results on right.
*The FG were captured in all 10 assaults with the leader retreating when present.

In 1.02b, it does seem to be beneficial to stack a leader with a unit. SP losses are quite a bit less and disruptions slightly less. You'd need to do a lot more tests to be sure, but the results seem to be what you would expect; unlike what happens in 1.03.

One other thing I noticed: in 1.02b, the level of the commander is added to the counter-assault value of its accompanying unit; nothing is added to the defense value. In 1.03, the counter-assault value is treated the same way and the defense value is increased by 1, no matter what the commander's level. I have no idea if that's important, just thought I'd mention it.

(in reply to cw58)
Post #: 9
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 3:19:49 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 4180
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

If it is intended, I could live with the explaination that NCOs and 90 day wonders hold their ground while figuring out what to do and COs try to preserve what they have for another day.

I don't think this is intended - there is something wrong here.

_____________________________

simovitch


(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 10
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 4:07:41 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 32913
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
The results with 0AV units are a known issue. I'll ask Jason and his team to take a look at these leader results, though it would be helpful if you'd run a few more tests since this is a really small sample given the randomness built into the system.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to simovitch)
Post #: 11
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 4:50:32 PM   
berto


Posts: 4462
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

Remember how an entire game of Avalon Hill's Afrika Korps hinged on getting that D-Back 2 result on the 2:1 attack on Tobruk? alot of it is in the die roll. This one is 10-sided IIRC.


Unless you would take your time, whittle down the defenders, assemble your reinforcements, then later in the game go in for the sure 3:1 kill. That's usually the way we would play it. It was fun every now and then, though, to gamble on the early 2:1 assault.

< Message edited by berto -- 7/19/2008 4:51:10 PM >


_____________________________

Early MusiChicago, http://earlymusichicago.org
PIKT, http://pikt.org
Campaign Series Lead Programmer, http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=226
AGElint debugging toolkit, http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2978333

(in reply to simovitch)
Post #: 12
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 5:53:29 PM   
cw58

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 8/4/2007
From: Hanford, CA, US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The results with 0AV units are a known issue. I'll ask Jason and his team to take a look at these leader results, though it would be helpful if you'd run a few more tests since this is a really small sample given the randomness built into the system.


EF 1.03
1 German Schutzen 40 pltn vs. 1 Russian Rifle 38 pltn (disrupted) w/o & w/ leader
In clear terrain, normal ground conditions, with open hexes for Russians to retreat to
100 assaults w/o leader, 100 assaults w/ leader (Used leaders ranging from 1-5 command levels)

..................-SP........Dsrpt.......Retreat........Enemy Dsrpt
w/o leader....10...........13............14...............4
w/ leader.......5.............9.............84..............16

The ONLY time the Russians (w/ leader) did not retreat was when the Germans were disrupted in a counter-assault. There were 2 leaders of each rank (1-5); the results for counter-assault disruptions (i.e., Germans disrupted) by command level are:

Level 5......6 German disruptions
Level 4......2
Level 3......2
Level 2......2
Level 1......4

A unit receives a bonus to its counter-assault strength equal to the command level of a leader. The last set of results don't really bear that out, but again the test sample is probably too small for that. Only 20 assaults for each level of command.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 13
RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 6:10:47 PM   
cw58

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 8/4/2007
From: Hanford, CA, US
Status: offline
Here's the assault odds screens for this test. First is German vs Russian w/o leader, 2nd is the same only w/ a Level 1 leader, 3rd is the same only w/ a Level 5 leader.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to cw58)
Post #: 14
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> John Tiller's Campaign Series >> An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.102