An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules

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An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules

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An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/18/2008 8:24:38 PM

XLVIII Pz. Korp

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So I'm playing "Counterattack at Hamich" and I disrupt a single American Inf. platoon in clear terrain. I assault the hex with two full strength engineers (morale 8) and the assault bounces. Am I surprised? yeah, but not as much as I would've been two weeks ago. Anyway, seeing how it's the last turn of the game, with a comfortable victory margin I figure just for kicks and giggles I�m gonna see how badly 5 SP's of empty halftracks get bounced by assaulting 2 disrupted infantry platoons (4 or 5 SP's?) and a leader defending in a wooded hex. Guess what? They blow 'em out?!? and push back the defenders stacked with a leader!!??

So where assault engineers fail in ideal circumstances the empty halftrack succeeds, in terrain favoring the defender to boot.

Man I have to go start forming my halftrack assault groups.

Like I said I just can�t get a good hold of what�s happening here.

Any explanations on this set of occurances?

< Message edited by XLVIII Pz. Korp -- 7/18/2008 8:27:00 PM >

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/18/2008 9:48:37 PM

simovitch

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Remember how an entire game of Avalon Hill's Afrika Korps hinged on getting that D-Back 2 result on the 2:1 attack on Tobruk? alot of it is in the die roll. This one is 10-sided IIRC.

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 12:45:47 AM

cw58

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I've ran several tests assaulting 0 AV (assault value) units like transport vehicles and mortars and ATGs. I tried it against units only and then against units stacked with a leader. Without a leader, many of the units did very well, retreating about half the time and losing a couple of SPs.

Stacked with a leader, in every case, the unit retreated. Or both were captured if the unit was incapable of movement. That's about 150 retreats or captures out of 150 assaults.

I think I'll run some tests against some infantry types. Would be interesting to see if leaders have a negative impact on them as well.

(in reply to XLVIII Pz. Korp)

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 1:53:54 AM

cw58

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OK, did a quick assault test in EF using a normal 6sp German rifle platoon. For the defense, I used 3 separate Russian Rifle 38 platoons, a MG 30 platoon and a 76mm Field Gun. All the defenders start with disrupted status. I ran the assaults on the defenders without a leader and then stacked with a leader (used commander levels 1-4).

Results:_________-SP_____Disrpt.__Retreat/Capt.___-SP___Disrpt____Retreat/Capture
3 Rifle 38 pltns_____3______4______3/0____________4_____4________12/0
MG 30 pltns________0______3______0/0____________1_____2________5/0__Ldr killed once
76mm FG__________1______1______0/0____________1_____2________4/5__Ldr killed once

These are the results of 5 assaults on each unit (total of 15 for Rifle 38).
Without leader results are on the left. Stacked with leader results on right.
The 76mm FG were always captured with a leader stacked.
As you can see, SP loss and disruptions are similar, but the retreat rate is drastically different. Without a leader, a unit retreats only 12% of the time, with a leader that jumps to 88%. So the moral of this story is: don't stack a leader with your troops, thinking he will stiffen your soldiers' resolve. For he will be the first to shout "Run away"!

Anyone else notice this?

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 2:12:00 AM

simovitch

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Good catch - that is definitely not good. Any chance you could run the same test with 1.02?

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 3:51:04 AM

cw58

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Yeah, shouldn't be a problem. I've still got 1.02 installed. I'll get back to you.

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 3:53:00 AM

XLVIII Pz. Korp

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Now that's interesting. I wonder if that's by intent or a bug?

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 4:05:53 AM

junk2drive

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If it is intended, I could live with the explaination that NCOs and 90 day wonders hold their ground while figuring out what to do and COs try to preserve what they have for another day.

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 5:01:14 AM

cw58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cw58

OK, did a quick assault test in EF using a normal 6sp German rifle platoon. For the defense, I used 3 separate Russian Rifle 38 platoons, a MG 30 platoon and a 76mm Field Gun. All the defenders start with disrupted status. I ran the assaults on the defenders without a leader and then stacked with a leader (used commander levels 1-4).

Results:_________-SP_____Disrpt.__Retreat/Capt.___-SP___Disrpt____Retreat/Capture
3 Rifle 38 pltns_____3______4______3/0____________4_____4________12/0
MG 30 pltns________0______3______0/0____________1_____2________5/0__Ldr killed once
76mm FG__________1______1______0/0____________1_____2________4/5__Ldr killed once

These are the results of 5 assaults on each unit (total of 15 for Rifle 38).
Without leader results are on the left. Stacked with leader results on right.
The 76mm FG were always captured with a leader stacked.
As you can see, SP loss and disruptions are similar, but the retreat rate is drastically different. Without a leader, a unit retreats only 12% of the time, with a leader that jumps to 88%. So the moral of this story is: don't stack a leader with your troops, thinking he will stiffen your soldiers' resolve. For he will be the first to shout "Run away"!

Anyone else notice this?

This is the same test, this time done in EF 1.02b. Both 1.03 & 1.02b tests were done in clear terrain with open hexes for the Russians to retreat to.

In 1.02b, the German rifle platoon has an AV of 5, which is 1 more than in 1.03 (AV of 4). The Russian units have different names, but the same defense and assault values.

Results:_______-SP____Disrpt.__Retreat/Capture___-SP______Disrpt.____Retreat/Capture
3 Rifle 39 pltns___3_______4____11/0______________0_________0_______12/0
MG 39 pltn______2________2____5/0_______________2_________3_______5/0
76mm FG_______3________2____0/5_______________0_________3_______5/5*

These are the results of 5 assaults on each unit (total 15 for Rifle 39).
Without leader results are on the left. With leader stacked results on right.
*The FG were captured in all 10 assaults with the leader retreating when present.

In 1.02b, it does seem to be beneficial to stack a leader with a unit. SP losses are quite a bit less and disruptions slightly less. You'd need to do a lot more tests to be sure, but the results seem to be what you would expect; unlike what happens in 1.03.

One other thing I noticed: in 1.02b, the level of the commander is added to the counter-assault value of its accompanying unit; nothing is added to the defense value. In 1.03, the counter-assault value is treated the same way and the defense value is increased by 1, no matter what the commander's level. I have no idea if that's important, just thought I'd mention it.

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 3:19:49 PM

simovitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

If it is intended, I could live with the explaination that NCOs and 90 day wonders hold their ground while figuring out what to do and COs try to preserve what they have for another day.

I don't think this is intended - there is something wrong here.

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 4:07:41 PM

Erik Rutins

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The results with 0AV units are a known issue. I'll ask Jason and his team to take a look at these leader results, though it would be helpful if you'd run a few more tests since this is a really small sample given the randomness built into the system.

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 4:50:32 PM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

Remember how an entire game of Avalon Hill's Afrika Korps hinged on getting that D-Back 2 result on the 2:1 attack on Tobruk? alot of it is in the die roll. This one is 10-sided IIRC.

Unless you would take your time, whittle down the defenders, assemble your reinforcements, then later in the game go in for the sure 3:1 kill. That's usually the way we would play it. It was fun every now and then, though, to gamble on the early 2:1 assault.

< Message edited by berto -- 7/19/2008 4:51:10 PM >

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RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 5:53:29 PM

cw58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The results with 0AV units are a known issue. I'll ask Jason and his team to take a look at these leader results, though it would be helpful if you'd run a few more tests since this is a really small sample given the randomness built into the system.

EF 1.03
1 German Schutzen 40 pltn vs. 1 Russian Rifle 38 pltn (disrupted) w/o & w/ leader
In clear terrain, normal ground conditions, with open hexes for Russians to retreat to
100 assaults w/o leader, 100 assaults w/ leader (Used leaders ranging from 1-5 command levels)

..................-SP........Dsrpt.......Retreat........Enemy Dsrpt
w/o leader....10...........13............14...............4
w/ leader.......5.............9.............84..............16

The ONLY time the Russians (w/ leader) did not retreat was when the Germans were disrupted in a counter-assault. There were 2 leaders of each rank (1-5); the results for counter-assault disruptions (i.e., Germans disrupted) by command level are:

Level 5......6 German disruptions
Level 4......2
Level 3......2
Level 2......2
Level 1......4

A unit receives a bonus to its counter-assault strength equal to the command level of a leader. The last set of results don't really bear that out, but again the test sample is probably too small for that. Only 20 assaults for each level of command.

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Post #: 13

RE: An Interesting Wrinkle in New Assault Rules - 7/19/2008 6:10:47 PM

cw58

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Here's the assault odds screens for this test. First is German vs Russian w/o leader, 2nd is the same only w/ a Level 1 leader, 3rd is the same only w/ a Level 5 leader.