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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns

 
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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 8/27/2009 3:24:50 PM   
kondor


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First of all congratz to u guys, not only for great tactics employed during the game, but for making this novel of AAR.

There is no doubt that concentric attack bonus/stack penalties should be looked into, but I wonder how is it possible that either of u didn´t produce medium/heavy tanks!? I guess that it is not worth it in this game, but that is clearly problem that has to be addressed to (maybe R&D event that gives PP directly into medium/heavy tanks so that player gets incentive to use them more?).

Common, that just don´t feels wright!

U guys finished off 1944- with light tanks II? That is what Pz-IIf equivalent?! What about Panther, Tiger, KV-2, T-34...?

This was a great read and I learned a lot from this AAR. (Just bought the game and am trying to learn it

). Thx george1972, thx seille

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 661
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 8/28/2009 12:54:56 PM   
seille

 

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With the limited production we had we never had a chance to develop and produce the expensive heavy tanks.
Is nice to have them, but to have a powerful airforce and infantry backbone is more important.
And against my infantry George decided to produce artillery II, which was a good idea. In the wrong terrain the tanks are nearly useless
and we had many fortifications, rivers and urban hexes.
Heavy tanks and their production may work against the AI in this scenario, but not against a skilled human opponent.

(in reply to kondor)
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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 8/28/2009 7:22:37 PM   
PFrancis

 

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I didn`t buy the game yet, but reading those last observations I couldn`t avoid to associate it to a problem I see in any game simulating production. The fact is that players not only have better knowledge of equipment capacities than commanders of the time, being able to playtest them at will, but also some production variables are never simulated. Production wasn`t only a question of choosing the best weapon available and manufactoring it. Apart from the limitations of resorces, one had to deal with economical interests, conflicting points of view and necessities of high command, political pressures, already installed capacities and at least one point that could be simulated easily and which could compensate for all others, perhaps: opportunity costs. If one produces to many infantry and no tanks, that means that all production resources are pointed towards infantry production. Each extra infantry unit produced should become more expensive due to things like lack of resources, training costs (since most especialized resources were already used, like trained reserves, officials, etc), etc, which means that the marginal costs should be greater. People are being taken from one niche of production (were they do better) to another. On the other hand, tanks should become less expensive, since one has idle production capacity and spared resources. This would work also for different kind of tanks, since if you stop producing one kind of tank, you'll have idle capacity for the parts which are specific for this kind of tank. So, beginning to produce it again, should bear lower costs. I'm ignoring some points, like fixed costs, but for a game, a simplified model should work well, compensating even the other variables I quoted above. It's simple: just make things that are intensively produced in a short period of time more expensive for each produced unit and things that weren't produced, less expensive. So, players would have to balance production or pay the greater costs if worth it according to his strategy.

As I said, I don't know the game yet and it's editor, but that is a common problem with all games I know which simulate production. At the end, people tend to 'overproduct' one or two kind of units and game becommes dull and unrealistic.

Just my 2 cents.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 663
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 8/28/2009 8:45:04 PM   
seille

 

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@PFrancis

All the things you asked for are possible to realize with the strong editor.
It´s unbelievable flexible.
It´s just a question of the creativity and skill of the scenario designer and the level of detail he want to implement.

The scenario we´re talking about here was one of the first made for this game.

(in reply to PFrancis)
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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 8/30/2009 1:24:02 AM   
PFrancis

 

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You're saying we can raise the price based on quantity produced over a period of time and lower the price based on periods of low production of a specific equipment? The engine will keep track of it?

If so, that's great news, because most games are of the kind "choose your favorite weapon and concentrate all your resources on it". Simulating even a simplified version of a realistic production system would avoid this kind of behaviour and make players allocate resources more realistically, while placing a greater challenge to production decisions.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 665
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 8/30/2009 7:20:51 AM   
seille

 

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It is possible, but not easy.

You´ll have to dive deep into the editor and learn how to use the event engine to control things.
Long time ago i played around with a setup where i needed engines AND airframes to produce a
plane. (Just as a example)
Other example: Scenario Space Colonization
If a player sells too many minerals on the open market the price goes down. If player starts to buy
more the price goes up again. Controled by events in the background and you can buy or sell over
action cards.

But it needs some time to learn the powerful editor especially the event engine. That´s nothing
you learn in 5 minutes. But this editor is VERY powerful and mighty.

(in reply to PFrancis)
Post #: 666
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 8/31/2009 2:06:14 PM   
kondor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

With the limited production we had we never had a chance to develop and produce the expensive heavy tanks.
Is nice to have them, but to have a powerful airforce and infantry backbone is more important.
And against my infantry George decided to produce artillery II, which was a good idea. In the wrong terrain the tanks are nearly useless
and we had many fortifications, rivers and urban hexes.
Heavy tanks and their production may work against the AI in this scenario, but not against a skilled human opponent.



Did comrade Stalin had more production then u? Haven´t George pressured a lot less then Hitler did SU? I don´t think so And they bought managed to develop heavier tanks.

And I do realize that tanks don´t have much use in forests, etc, but SU is BIG and they have their value somewhere in the steps maybe?



quote:

ORIGINAL: seille
Heavy tanks and their production may work against the AI in this scenario, but not against a skilled human opponent.



This is the hole point. Change this so that med/heavy tanks find their role in war.

PFrancis has some good suggestions about this to.


< Message edited by kondor -- 8/31/2009 2:09:34 PM >

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 667
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 8/31/2009 9:04:18 PM   
george1972

 

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If you want this scenario to feel more "real", then the tech tree needs to be stripped down by renaming "Light Tank II" to "Medium Tank" and perhaps Light Tank III to "Heavy Tanks". Or even have special events giving you those upgrades for free. But keep in mind this scenario was not designed to be a very accurate simulation of the war on the Eastern Front. Instead it captures the "feel" of the campaign quite good. As the Germans you get to enjoy a "happy summer" in '41, a "bad winter" after that and a second "happy summer" in '42. If you don't defeat the Soviets by then, you'll have lost the war. As the Russians you will see your troops melt away and be forced to counter-attack the Germans while taking horrendous casualties. After about two years you finally manage to rebuild your army up to a level that is can hold its ground against the Wehrmacht. If you manage to hold enough ground until then, you will probably win the war.

As such the "emotional simulation" in this scenario is spot-on, even if things as unit types and such are not.

I personally still think it is one of the best scenario's of the game and very well suited for a duel between players with roughly equal skill levels.

(in reply to kondor)
Post #: 668
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 9/1/2009 8:44:47 AM   
kondor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: george1972

If you want this scenario to feel more "real", then the tech tree needs to be stripped down by renaming "Light Tank II" to "Medium Tank" and perhaps Light Tank III to "Heavy Tanks". Or even have special events giving you those upgrades for free.



Another good solution. That way it would feel more... emotionally wright!

(in reply to george1972)
Post #: 669
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 9/1/2009 1:04:21 PM   
Grymme

 

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One idea would be to let researching light tankII give access to medium tank I and a rebate on Heavy tank

Light Tank III gives access to medíum tank II and a rebate on heavy tank II and so on...

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(in reply to kondor)
Post #: 670
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 9/1/2009 5:52:43 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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I tend to like the more generalized research trees that you see in some scenerio's where you might research "Armor Tech" and it gives you access to all the advanced models of the different types of Tank/Armor SFT's.

Also there are ways to play with forcing players to balance production priorties. I tried to do that a little bit in my "Space Opera" scenerio where each different SFT type uses not just production  but  different resource types to build. So if your building lots of infantry, your going to be burning through your stockpile of Organics pretty quickly.... and you might even have Production facilities sitting idle because there are not enough resources to fuel them... so in a situation like that you'd want to balance your production to make best use of your available resource so that you don't have capacity sitting idle for lack of resources.

There are also definately ways to make different SFT's attractive in different situations. Light Tanks are just as good as Mediums or Heavies versus infantry (in Production value anyways)..... but lights (again in Production values) should get chewed up in Tank vs Tank battles. Air is very powerfull in AT (as it should be).... but there are ways to tweak it in scenerio's. You can introduce weather events which ground your air units.... you can tweak it's combat values..... you can make AA very cheap to build.... or one of my favorates....lower it's combat modifiers dramaticaly when attacking in dense terrain like heavy forest, urban, etc.

It's not quite perfect, since there aren't seperate sets of terrain modifiers for air vs air and air vs ground engagements..... but if you apply the same modifier universaly to attack AND defense of all air SFT's it works out ok. ((So if an fighter only attacks at 50% in a heavy forest hex....if you apply a 50% defense penalty for the fighters intercepting in that terrain...then the odds in the air-combat turn out pretty much the same. However if the ground units have normal or even bonus defense combat modifiers in that terrain.... then they become ALOT less vulnerable to air strikes when in that cover.))






< Message edited by GrumpyMel -- 9/1/2009 5:55:04 PM >

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 671
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 9/1/2009 7:00:47 PM   
jjdenver

 

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Great ideas GrumpyMel - I like most or even all of them. But the problem is that I think is that there are already so many scenarios out there for the game that don't incorporate any of these ideas, and these are the scenarios most played. There aren't too many new scenarios being created and even these probably don't incorporate these ideas.

So the ideas are great but the lack of scenarios that limit air in the ways you describe for example is I think zero or close to zero.

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(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 672
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 9/1/2009 7:48:01 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Yeah, but on the bright side, Vic's working on a new game and has said it should be backwards compatible .  I know, I for one, plan on going hog-wild with that games editor once it comes out to see what I can do with making new scenerios.



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Post #: 673
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 9/1/2009 9:24:24 PM   
tweber

 

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It would be very easy to limit air.  All you have to do is track a planes variable (pilots?) that is a pre-req to build fighters or planes in general.  You could handle similarly to manpower in WAW.  This would put a hard cap on plains.

I am personally not a big fan of this approach and I would just make planes (or any other unit that is thought to be too powerful) more expensive.

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 674
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 9/2/2009 7:26:41 AM   
kondor


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I agree with most written above and hope that Vic would incorporate some of this in his new project .
Maybe we should move this discussion to some other section? Seeing that we have a lot to say about this and this is an AAR, and an excellent one!

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 675
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 11/21/2011 6:52:46 AM   
critter


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I'm late to the party. This was a kick ass AAR.
It makes me want to order AT Gold right away.

What of any changes were made in it compared to the suggestions here?
I see in the Matrix add Gold "includes" the user made senerios. Where else would you go to get them?

Great AAR Guys.

(in reply to kondor)
Post #: 676
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