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RE: barbarossa-tactical

 
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RE: barbarossa-tactical - 7/15/2008 8:21:23 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


... for most cases the default will tend to work best with full-day turn intervals and needs to be decreased accordingly for longer intervals and increased accordingly for shorter ones.


I understand that this is not arbitrary, and I think my silly brain gets it. Generally, one day turns calculate 1x losses, so 2 day turns would calculate 2x losses, and half day turns would calculate .5x losses (if the attrition divider is set accordingly). If a half-week turn has the AD set to a one-day turn, the calculated losses would be undesireably low, resulting in a possible stagnant front, for the game scale. But I think I found something contradictory. In 'Plan Martin', with one week turns, D. McBride says :

3.91: Attrition Divider: 35 (losses are around 25% of the default setting, often accepted as the norm for one week turns)

I'm not asking anyone to explain someone elses statement, but this does seem opposite to my interpretation. Although as Bob stated, there are other factors to be taken into consideration. It seems for a setting that is so critical, there should be some guidelines.


It'd be good to resolve the discrepancy between Bob/Curtis' interpretation that one day is the point the AD is set for and DMB's statement that it is a week.

Here it's worth noting that I've suspected that Norm basically designed his engine using his original Korea scenario as the test bed. In other words, I picture Young Edison up there in the garret, tinkering away with his program and deciding what was right by seeing what results it delivered for the Korea scenario.

As I recall, Korea used one-week turns. So while it pains me to say so, DMB may be right: the AD is designed for one-week turns, not one day.

Note, though, that I wouldn't assume a linear model for lethality. You can pump out a real fire-storm for a day -- but then you start to slow down. In OPART terms, over seven one-day turns, you won't be putting out as much on turn 7 as you did on turn 1. So if we assume one week is the break point, it might be best to multiply the attrition divider by less than seven for one day turns. The same point would apply no matter what the break point is -- in other words, even if Bob/Curtis is right.




_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 31
RE: barbarossa-tactical - 7/15/2008 9:18:52 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
But I think I found something contradictory. In 'Plan Martin', with one week turns, D. McBride says :

3.91: Attrition Divider: 35 (losses are around 25% of the default setting, often accepted as the norm for one week turns)

I'm not asking anyone to explain someone elses statement, but this does seem opposite to my interpretation. Although as Bob stated, there are other factors to be taken into consideration. It seems for a setting that is so critical, there should be some guidelines.


No telling when Daniel wrote that. At one point I also thought that the default setting was for whole-week turns - and said as much, so he might even have been referencing me. For a while, I even had the AD set to 20 for CFNA, under that assumption. I only changed my mind after lots of trial-and-error. The more important point than what he said would be what he did, however. He set the AD to 35 for a half-day turn-interval scenario. That's close to in-line with assigning the default to full-day turn intervals.

As to guidelines, assuming the values are linear, then here would be the values for the setting, along with some values I've actually used for it:

Whole-week: 2 (Examples: Germany 1945 & Soviet Union 1941)
Half-week: 4 (Examples: CFNA, France 1944, The Next War 1979)
Full-day: 14 (Examples: Killer Angels 1863, Cambrai 1917, Kaiserschlacht 1918; Exception: Okinawa 1945)
Half-day: 28
6-hour: 56 (Example: Waterloo 1815, actually set to 40)

Okinawa is the exception to the rule due to the need to model the Jap cave defenses. It uses an AD of 50. And, at 40, Waterloo must have needed to be bloodier than normal WWII.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 32
RE: barbarossa-tactical - 7/16/2008 2:33:25 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2599
Joined: 10/13/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
But I think I found something contradictory. In 'Plan Martin', with one week turns, D. McBride says :

3.91: Attrition Divider: 35 (losses are around 25% of the default setting, often accepted as the norm for one week turns)

I'm not asking anyone to explain someone elses statement, but this does seem opposite to my interpretation. Although as Bob stated, there are other factors to be taken into consideration. It seems for a setting that is so critical, there should be some guidelines.


No telling when Daniel wrote that. At one point I also thought that the default setting was for whole-week turns - and said as much, so he might even have been referencing me. For a while, I even had the AD set to 20 for CFNA, under that assumption. I only changed my mind after lots of trial-and-error...


We may be crediting Norm with too much wisdom and diligent research.

The default setting might just be what worked for his Korea scenario. This, on the one hand, involved a lot of human-wave attacks by the Chinese, and on the other, involved the usual lavish American application of munitions. There's no particular reason to think the value he settled on represents some sort of universally valid constant.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 7/16/2008 2:35:54 AM >


_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 33
RE: barbarossa-tactical - 7/16/2008 3:43:17 PM   
wmorris

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 5/25/2008
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quote:


Original: Curtis Lemay

Whole-week: 2 (Examples: Germany 1945 & Soviet Union 1941)
Half-week: 4 (Examples: CFNA, France 1944, The Next War 1979)
Full-day: 14 (Examples: Killer Angels 1863, Cambrai 1917, Kaiserschlacht 1918; Exception: Okinawa 1945)
Half-day: 28
6-hour: 56 (Example: Waterloo 1815, actually set to 40)


I had a lightbulb moment about this and am gonna play around with it in my Fite mod. The mental picture I had was how a sim of US Civil War combat outcomes would look with the divider moving up and down as tactics evolved...

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 34
RE: barbarossa-tactical - 7/16/2008 5:27:52 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2599
Joined: 10/13/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wmorris

quote:


Original: Curtis Lemay

Whole-week: 2 (Examples: Germany 1945 & Soviet Union 1941)
Half-week: 4 (Examples: CFNA, France 1944, The Next War 1979)
Full-day: 14 (Examples: Killer Angels 1863, Cambrai 1917, Kaiserschlacht 1918; Exception: Okinawa 1945)
Half-day: 28
6-hour: 56 (Example: Waterloo 1815, actually set to 40)


I had a lightbulb moment about this and am gonna play around with it in my Fite mod. The mental picture I had was how a sim of US Civil War combat outcomes would look with the divider moving up and down as tactics evolved...


This might be quick. You can't alter the attrition divider in the course of play.


_____________________________

"...this country belongs to us, to the white man."

-- Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai, interview published on 6/3/2012. Interesting world.

(in reply to wmorris)
Post #: 35
RE: barbarossa-tactical - 7/16/2008 10:51:18 PM   
wmorris

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 5/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

This might be quick. You can't alter the attrition divider in the course of play


Understood. I just meant the mental picture. Still, it would be nice.

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 36
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