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Effect of naval leaders on blockade???

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? Page: [1]
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Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 6:11:45 AM   
willgamer


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The chart in the manual on p.138 seems to give a large penality for attaching naval leaders to blockade cruisers. Only a leader rated 4 is a benefit. I don't understand why leaders would mostly hurt rather than help.

In my limited experience, any leader seems to help blockading crusiers.

Should players avoid putting naval leaders with blockade crusiers?

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 7:05:46 AM   
WarHunter


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Looking at the chart, i would probably never use a leader with the dreaded naval rating 1. With his 83% to be asleep on duty, its better he be assigned to the gunboat flotillas.
I normally like to use the 4 rated leaders for anti-raider duty on the high seas. They seem to do well in that capacity.
That leaves me just the 2 and 3 rated for blocade. Probably place the 3 rated off shore at Wilmington and Charleston and Mobile, and work down from there.
Thanks for bringing this topic up.


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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 7:17:25 AM   
Berkut

 

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The CSC rules state that if you are using CSCs, and do not have one assigned to a blockading leader, you get an automatic -1.

THis is pretty harsh considering the lack of Command 7+ naval leaders.

Really, in general this is pretty harsh, since it takes a naval 3 leader to break even, and you are REQUIRED to have a CSC, so you cannot even place your crummy naval leaders in those roles.

Overall, the CSC/Naval thing seems very tacked on and not well thought out, unless I am simply missing something. Someone tell me I am missing something...


< Message edited by Berkut -- 7/4/2008 7:20:45 AM >

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 7:39:26 AM   
WarHunter


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The Union navy does have some leaders available for sub-commander attachment.

Du Pont CP9
Porter CP8
Farragut CP8
Foote CP7
All of the above are 2star rank.

2 more are right at 6 command points and 2star rank, Davis and Dalgren. They should be targeted for leading attacks to gain that Command point.

With 35 activations on Jan 62, finding a few for the navy should be worth the picks for these naval studs.

The sub-commander option is just that, an option. No one forces it on you.





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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 2:18:22 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

That leaves me just the 2 and 3 rated for blocade. Probably place the 3 rated off shore at Wilmington and Charleston and Mobile, and work down from there.



Statistically speaking, why bother! The 3 rated leader is just break even and the 2 is a loser.

I just cannot understand the rational behind this rule. How can just the captain of a crusier be at better blockading than 90% of the leaders that outrank him.

OTOH, I just started playing the Union side, and after I pulled 2 and 3 rated leaders off the ships, I swear the blockade results got worse.

So confused!!!


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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 3:54:42 PM   
WarHunter


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I agree the 2 rated leaders have a 55% of sleeping on the job.
Not really Hornblower, material there. But they do have a 16% chance, and its infinity better than 0%.

Better the ships have leadership than not.

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 5:24:13 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

I agree the 2 rated leaders have a 55% of sleeping on the job.
Not really Hornblower, material there. But they do have a 16% chance, and its infinity better than 0%.

Better the ships have leadership than not.


Perhaps I'm totally not understanding how to read the table on p.138.

The column heading for the chart are:
quote:

Naval Rating of Leader +1 to Blockade value -1 to Blockade value


So my interpretation is that a level 1 leader is hopeless at 0% to add 1 and 83% to subtract 1, even a level 2 leader has a mere 16% chance to add 1, but a 55% chance to subtract 1, then level 3 is even odds. Clearly a losing proposition!

What am I missing?



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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 5:58:19 PM   
WarHunter


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Willgamer, Lets grope in the dark together.
Starting with the values of our ships.
Cruisers have a blocade value of 2
Ironclads and Gunboats 1

If we have 4 cruisers under the command of a 1rated naval commander, and he is sleeping on the job. His blocade rating should be 7.
4 cruisers = 8 - (83% chance of -1), Im am guessing it is -1 per his entire command and not -1 per ship.

If we have a 4 rated naval commander 50% chance of +1 commanding a single gunboat value 1. We will see a value of 2 50%, a 0 16% of time, a 1 36% of time.

Im finished groping. How do you feel about the naval leaders now?

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 6:13:15 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Willgamer, Lets grope in the dark together.
Starting with the values of our ships.
Cruisers have a blocade value of 2
Ironclads and Gunboats 1

If we have 4 cruisers under the command of a 1rated naval commander, and he is sleeping on the job. His blocade rating should be 7.
4 cruisers = 8 - (83% chance of -1), Im am guessing it is -1 per his entire command and not -1 per ship.

If we have a 4 rated naval commander 50% chance of +1 commanding a single gunboat value 1. We will see a value of 2 50%, a 0 16% of time, a 1 36% of time.

Im finished groping. How do you feel about the naval leaders now?


Still struggling with finding the light switch!

In your example of 4 cruisers, why use a leader at all, unless it rated 4?

Wouldn't the leaderless 4 cruisers provide 8 blocade 100% of the time?

Isn't using any leader rated 1-3 worse statistically?

Still in the dark.

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 6:25:30 PM   
WarHunter


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I think you are totaly correct. Why use a leader that might bring the rating down? I can only hazard a guess that maybe 4 cruisers in a sea zone do not operate as a combined force, but as 4 separate cruisers.

2/2/2/2 and only one is actually counted.
Where if you have a leader in command, 4 cruisers become 2+2+2+2+leader.

Until we get some offical info, im still groping.


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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 6:32:43 PM   
Joel Billings


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Without looking at the rules, seems to me there is an automatic penalty if there is no leader that is worse than having a bad leader (which might avoid the penalty).

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 6:34:08 PM   
willgamer


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Yep!

I'll SWAG that cruiser speed may be a hidden factor in the equation. Were that the case, the speed increase provided by any leader might be a net positive.



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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 6:35:36 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Without looking at the rules, seems to me there is an automatic penalty if there is no leader that is worse than having a bad leader (which might avoid the penalty).


Time to look at the rules, then!

Not in there that I can find!

You're saying there is a missing/implied first line to the table that would be 0 leader = -1, 100% of the time.

< Message edited by willgamer -- 7/4/2008 7:23:07 PM >


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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/4/2008 7:46:30 PM   
WarHunter


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Thanks Joel.

the automatic penalty for having ships "leaderless', makes having a leader in charge, no matter how marginal, a better choice.

Ensign Pulver!!! Front and center.

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/5/2008 6:38:14 AM   
Berkut

 

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Except that the rules say nothing about there being an automatic penalty.

There ought to be, since that would make all this make a little more sense, but it is not in the rules.

And the CSC thing is terrible - my guess is that it was done without really thinking about the fact that naval leaders typically have (and need) much lower command ratings than army leaders. Basically, using CSC means the vast majority of your blockading fleets will operate at a permanent -1. Sure, there are a few leaders with higher command ratings...how many people place their 2 best leaders off the coast of some port on blockade duty?

I think it is 1 of 2 things:

1. An oversight - and the CSC commander limit for naval leaders should be something like 4 or 5 rather than 7, or
2. The manual is wrong.

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/5/2008 7:57:10 AM   
Joel Billings


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Yes, the automatic -1 somehow got left out of the manual. I just ran a test and leaderless ships always get a -1.

As for the CSC rule, yes, it does appear this will make it a little harder on the Union player. In hindsight, we probably should have made it easier for CSC's to be attached to naval leaders with lower CPs. Since I think the game is balanced in favor of a good Union player, this doesn't bother me too much. Also, it is fairly easy to have naval leaders gain CP's if they are involved in successful bombardments, so it's possible to build up some higher CP naval leaders over time.

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/5/2008 8:54:32 AM   
Berkut

 

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Time, when it comes to the blockade, is something you do not have.

By the time you build up enough leaders to attach CSCs to blocakde ships, you have enough cruisers built that it doesn't really matter anymore.

But if you think it is a minor issue - ok. I will be very surprised, however, if repeated play with competent Southern players between humans shows a bias towards the Union side. The game mechanics are very much heavily weighted towards the defensive player. But I shall wait to see what happens with more play, getting ready to start over again, and implement some changes.

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RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/5/2008 6:36:20 PM   
WarHunter


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Funny thing,

Playing with the option CSC, my Union opponent had no problem using activations to get the 2star naval leaders and assigning sub commanders as needed.
Maybe you need to play the option to get a feel for it.

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“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
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Post #: 18
RE: Effect of naval leaders on blockade??? - 7/5/2008 6:45:29 PM   
Berkut

 

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Perhaps I do - I certainly have only done it once - maybe the solution is to just activate tons and tons of Naval leaders to get some 2 stars, and appoint them to blockade duty. Because I think that is historical - all the highest level Union naval commanders were sitting off the shore running blockades.

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