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First Impressions?

 
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First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 4:45:02 AM   
Crimguy


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Let's hear it folks. I'm still at work, so I need to get some early feedback for the next couple hours.

Please let me know what you think, and also summarize the kind of gamer you are (are you a WitP guy? a TOAW man? A Stratego fan?, etc.)
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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 5:03:55 AM   
LarryP


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I play all kinds of games but my favorites are turn based strategy. I love WiTP and TOAW3 too.

War Between the States has 18 tutorial videos and I am still watching those. I also have both World At War and World Divided. Gary went to a lot of work making the game engine work with this. I have not had much time yet to evaluate yet so be back later...

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 5:36:37 AM   
rroberson

 

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WITP Fan here waiting for feedback...I'm on the fence...I have FOF and it was all right. So pause your turn and help me make a purchase :P.



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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 5:58:37 AM   
mike1962

 

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I have ran the tutorials and watched a couple of the videos, played with it a little.
Seen enough to know that it will get a lot of play time by me. Runs real smooth on my laptop,
really like the map, I like the NATO symbols, seems a lot less cluttered. Impressed so far.
I never could get into FOF, I like AACW a lot though. Thats it for now. Back to it...Mike

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:06:13 AM   
tedhealy


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I have UV and enjoy it.  I've thought about WITP before but have been afraid it would just be too much.  I have AGEOD's ACW game and enjoy it despite not liking the tedious nature of grouping armies. 

I read the WBTS manual and watched all 18 vids then jumped in as the union.  Despite trying to prepare, some things were not clicking for me.  Several months in I began to figure out initiative, ratings, how to group units, training MIL to INF, and the various stat screens. 

I'd have to say I like it.  Understanding initiative, how to get it and how to increase your odds of getting, is goal numero uno.  If you don't get that, you'll be lost and if you bang your head against it not getting it, you might at first not like the game.  I thought I understood it from the AARs, but I found I didn't quite 'get it' when some guys got it and others did not and why some units/armies could move and others could not.  As I began to understand, I began to grin because of how well this simulates civil war generals.  You're going to come to love certain generals for their abilities.

I only played until DEC of 61 and secured Missouri, started to march into Northern Arkansas, and invaded KY.  IN the east I was mainly trying to organize everyone and figure out training militia into infantry.  I was preparing Grant to march south from Paducah in the spring of 62 when I quit.  It looked like the AI CSA was going to be ready for a fight though.

My only complaint right now is I feel like I needed a few more non video tutorials.  I'll have to rewatch the vids and reread the manual I suppose. 

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:20:40 AM   
PyleDriver


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Ted, were here to answer questions you have. Feel free to ask, its a hard but easy game once the light bulbs go on...Gary was at his best agian.


Jon

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:37:28 AM   
rroberson

 

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Meh, i took the plunge at 61 percent now. Sure hope it was worth it...so many good games coming out in the next month. :)

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:38:34 AM   
tedhealy


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Ok.  I don't think there is anything too specific right now.  I think I was just overwhelmed by numbers/stats and the actual number of units at first.  It took me a few turns to put everything together.  A final tutorial giving a small theater engagement lasting 6 months or so is what I was looking for so I wouldn't have to deal with lots of units right away.

Turning on the option to show unit types in region and changing the map scroll speed to 1 seemed to help.  Turning the NATO symbols on also helped a bit, but I do like the look of the icons.

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Post #: 8
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:45:58 AM   
PyleDriver


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Ted, the CSA is easier to learn with, less units and no navy. You may give that a try at first, it will help.


Jon

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Post #: 9
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:52:08 AM   
tedhealy


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Ok thanks, I'll give them a go next time despite my dislike for playing as Johnny Reb

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:58:55 AM   
PyleDriver


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Lol...A yankee in MO...Remember depots don't need to built in your home states to get initiative...


Jon

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 7:02:17 AM   
bschulte

 

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PyleDriver,

He's in St. Louis, a German (and Union) stronghold.

Besides, Ted Healy should be slapping Stooges around, not playing a Civil War game...

Speaking of downloading, I'm at 13% and counting. Unfortunately, I have to go to bed as soon as I confirm the game is downloaded and installed properly. Stupid real life, always getting in the way!

< Message edited by bschulte -- 6/12/2008 7:04:40 AM >


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Post #: 12
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 7:15:00 AM   
tedhealy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bschulte

PyleDriver,

He's in St. Louis, a German (and Union) stronghold.

Besides, Ted Healy should be slapping Stooges around, not playing a Civil War game...

Speaking of downloading, I'm at 13% and counting. Unfortunately, I have to go to bed as soon as I confirm the game is downloaded and installed properly. Stupid real life, always getting in the way!


Nyuk nyuk nyuk, Stooges did the Civil War in several shorts How long do you reckon this here war will last? I reckon about a week, takes time to win a war you know.

You can't be pro CSA in a town with Grant's Farm He's probably the reason I've always played USA. You'd have to go west or south of St. Louis to find the pro CSA sentiments.

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Post #: 13
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 7:29:12 AM   
PyleDriver


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Yep, my Grandma was from Springfield, I rest my case, agree with yours. Should have split that state too...lol...


Jon

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Post #: 14
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 7:41:59 AM   
Crimguy


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Joplin far enough out? Scariest town in America.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tedhealy


You can't be pro CSA in a town with Grant's Farm He's probably the reason I've always played USA. You'd have to go west or south of St. Louis to find the pro CSA sentiments.


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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 5:03:37 PM   
Crimguy


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Bit the bullet and got it.  Played for about 15 minutes, just to see if I could jump right in from W@W.  I couldn't.

40 pages in on the manual, and the game appears more complex than I expected.  THat's not a bad thing.

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 5:18:27 PM   
tgb

 

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So far I've played the tutorials and watched the videos 3 times, then jumped in as the Rebs. For some reason I'm finding the learning curve even steeper than EiA, but I've yet to crack open the manual. Will work on that later, I think.

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:36:59 PM   
TheRockSal

 

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I watched one tutorial and tried to read the manual, but the manual to me is a bit hard to read...so I just jumped in, played around for an hour and then went back to the manual and it made a lot more sense. One thing I love are the NATO symbols....those little unit icon just clutter the map up to me....the Nato symbols are perfect.

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Post #: 18
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 6:47:40 PM   
PyleDriver


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Going back and forth between the tutorials, manual and game is the best way to crack this game open. Don't try to get it all at once, it's just to deep. As I said in another post learn with the CSA, less troops, no navy and you don't have to build depots....


Jon

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Post #: 19
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 7:04:20 PM   
rroberson

 

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Played about a year with the Damn Rebs. (Let the AI handle my production so I could get use to the combat arms). Didn't win a single battle against the AI, which I assume is a good sign. Intend to sit down here at work and dig into the manual a bit. So far I have a neutral impression.

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 7:56:10 PM   
Termite2

 

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The first thing that I noticed was no Union Ft. Pickens in the July 61' start; then hitting F8 resulted in an CTD[windowed Vista] then I noticed this in the rules "Border States will generate partisans each turn in regions controlled by the Union player only" huh? no union partisans for confederate occupied border state regions? [or for East Tenn- the main reason for numerous Union campaigns to help the "unionists"]
I like the format; looks great, being an old board gamer of several civil war titles, I understand most of the concepts concerning leaders, supplies, activation etc. I have a few minor quibbles; like particular general historical activation dates-[ex J. Cox, comm 4/61, delayed at start of 61'scenario] but these are small nitpicks that do not detract from the game.
I am very pleased so far.

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Post #: 21
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 8:05:35 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2
then hitting F8 resulted in an CTD[windowed Vista]


Is that reproducible for you? F8 seems to work fine here (brings up the production screen). Have you updated your Vista drivers for video and audio to the absolute latest?

quote:

I then I noticed this in the rules "Border States will generate partisans each turn in regions controlled by the Union player only" huh? no union partisans for confederate occupied border state regions? [or for East Tenn- the main reason for numerous Union campaigns to help the "unionists"


The partisan values take into account the local sympathies. Eastern Tennessee was a favorite project of Lincoln's but any partisan activity there did not, to my recollection, rise to the level of what was in Missouri or other areas. The CSA did not generally find a need to garrison its own territory against partisans, but the Union certainly had to garrison occupied southern territory, this ended up representing a pretty big drain on Union manpower, as it does in the game.

quote:

I like the format; looks great, being an old board gamer of several civil war titles, I understand most of the concepts concerning leaders, supplies, activation etc. I have a few minor quibbles; like particular general historical activation dates-[ex J. Cox, comm 4/61, delayed at start of 61'scenario] but these are small nitpicks that do not detract from the game.
I am very pleased so far.


Glad to hear you're enjoying it!


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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 8:10:14 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson
Played about a year with the Damn Rebs. (Let the AI handle my production so I could get use to the combat arms). Didn't win a single battle against the AI, which I assume is a good sign.


Yes, that's to be expected until you get a handle on all the strategies involved in setting yourself up for a victory. I also started by letting the AI run my production, it's a good way to keep from getting overwhelmed at the start. Once you master movement and combat, you can then take over your production as well, if you so choose. The AI does a pretty good job with production though, as long as you want a fairly balanced approach instead of focusing on one particular area.

A few quick tips on winning battles:

1. Always Scout and Raid their rail lines and supplies if possible
2. Good Generals with Initiative and that includes having an Army Commander with initiative
4. Infantry should fight, not Militia
5. Pay attention to terrain and supply lines for their possible reaction/concentration possibilities

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 6/12/2008 8:11:18 PM >


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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 8:43:31 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2
then hitting F8 resulted in an CTD[windowed Vista]


Is that reproducible for you? F8 seems to work fine here (brings up the production screen). Have you updated your Vista drivers for video and audio to the absolute latest?


Just FYI, we couldn't duplicate this on our Vista test system at all, the game is solid as a rock. If this happens to you again, please post in the support sub-forum with a DxDiag file. Thanks!

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 8:57:20 PM   
Termite2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2
then hitting F8 resulted in an CTD[windowed Vista]


Is that reproducible for you? F8 seems to work fine here (brings up the production screen). Have you updated your Vista drivers for video and audio to the absolute latest?

quote:

I then I noticed this in the rules "Border States will generate partisans each turn in regions controlled by the Union player only" huh? no union partisans for confederate occupied border state regions? [or for East Tenn- the main reason for numerous Union campaigns to help the "unionists"


The partisan values take into account the local sympathies. Eastern Tennessee was a favorite project of Lincoln's but any partisan activity there did not, to my recollection, rise to the level of what was in Missouri or other areas. The CSA did not generally find a need to garrison its own territory against partisans, but the Union certainly had to garrison occupied southern territory, this ended up representing a pretty big drain on Union manpower, as it does in the game.

quote:

I like the format; looks great, being an old board gamer of several civil war titles, I understand most of the concepts concerning leaders, supplies, activation etc. I have a few minor quibbles; like particular general historical activation dates-[ex J. Cox, comm 4/61, delayed at start of 61'scenario] but these are small nitpicks that do not detract from the game.
I am very pleased so far.


Glad to hear you're enjoying it!



CTD only happened the first time I hit the icon on the toolbar, might have happened because of going from the previous F7 directly to F8; hasn't happened since.
East Tenn produced Union regts from the start of the war{1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 1st Tenn Cav;sept-nov 1861 }; was the scene of heavy partisan activity and the Confederates ruthlessly put down the unionists; not as bad as Missouri, but worse than Ky, Md.

"Knoxville and East Tennessee held a unique position in the Confederacy. Although Tennessee voted to join the Confederacy, East Tennessee remained throughout the war staunchly Unionist. To complicate matters, Knoxville was a blend of Union and Confederate supporters. This combination would ensure that Knoxville and East Tennessee saw their share of political and military fighting during the Civil War."-Anne Bridges U.T.K.
The biggest success of the partisans was the burning of the railroad bridges around Knoxville in Nov, 1861; which resulted in a heavy Confederate response.


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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 9:01:31 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2
East Tenn produced Union regts from the start of the war{1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 1st Tenn Cav;sept-nov 1861 }; was the scene of heavy partisan activity and the Confederates ruthlessly put down the unionists; not as bad as Missouri, but worse than Ky, Md.
"Knoxville and East Tennessee held a unique position in the Confederacy. Although Tennessee voted to join the Confederacy, East Tennessee remained throughout the war staunchly Unionist. To complicate matters, Knoxville was a blend of Union and Confederate supporters. This combination would ensure that Knoxville and East Tennessee saw their share of political and military fighting during the Civil War."-Anne Bridges U.T.K.
The biggest success of the partisans was the burning of the railroad bridges around Knoxville in Nov, 1861; which resulted in a heavy Confederate response.


I stand corrected, thanks. I guess I'll let Joel comment on this further since I missed the mark.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 9:21:21 PM   
Joel Billings


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I wasn't aware of the East Tennessee issue. Did the Confederates feel the need to garrison the area with troops (other than local militia)? The border states provide population to both sides in the game (the amounts vary based on the status of the state and are given in the manual), but for simplicity we kept all non-border states pure (100% for their side).

As for Fort Pickens, either Gary was not aware of it or did not think it deserved a space on the map given the gamescale and layout of the area. We could have handled it like the other islands, but we'd need to have a sea zone next to Pensacola that was different from the one off Mobile. I don't think it would have much impact on the game had we included it, but it's interesting to note.

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 9:41:29 PM   
Termite2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I wasn't aware of the East Tennessee issue. Did the Confederates feel the need to garrison the area with troops (other than local militia)? The border states provide population to both sides in the game (the amounts vary based on the status of the state and are given in the manual), but for simplicity we kept all non-border states pure (100% for their side).

As for Fort Pickens, either Gary was not aware of it or did not think it deserved a space on the map given the gamescale and layout of the area. We could have handled it like the other islands, but we'd need to have a sea zone next to Pensacola that was different from the one off Mobile. I don't think it would have much impact on the game had we included it, but it's interesting to note.


It was bitter enough that fighting continued for several years after the civil war. A decent book about it:
War at Every Door: Partisan Politics and Guerrilla Violence in East Tennessee, 1860-1869 by Noel C Fisher
"One of the most divided regions of the Confederacy, East Tennessee was the site of fierce Unionist resistance to secession, Confederate rule, and the Southern war effort. It was also the scene of unrelenting 'irregular,' or guerrilla, warfare between Union and Confederate supporters, a conflict that permanently altered the region's political, economic, and social landscape. In this study, Noel Fisher examines the military and political struggle for control of East Tennessee from the secession crisis through the early years of Reconstruction, focusing particularly on the military and political significance of the region's irregular activity. Fisher portrays in grim detail the brutality and ruthlessness employed not only by partisan bands but also by Confederate and Union troops under constant threat of guerrilla attack and government officials frustrated by unstinting dissent. He demonstrates that, generally, guerrillas were neither the romantic, daring figures of Civil War legend nor mere thieves and murderers, but rather were ordinary men and women who fought to live under a government of their choice and to drive out those who did not share their views." - review from UNC Press.

Ft. Pickens disrupted the trade from Pensacola, the Confederates tried to take it numerous times, but were unsuccessful.


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Post #: 28
RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 9:46:19 PM   
Feralkoala

 

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The Confederates stationed sizeable forces there on occasion, mostly to counter Union moves into the area. A rail line from VA ran through the area, so it was considered important for that reason, as well as the perceived benefit the Union might receive from sympathizers that was already mentioned. For example, Kirby Smith commanded there early in the war, and Longstreet's corps was stationed in Knoxville following Chickamauga and the ensuing blockade of Chattanooga.

Whether there would have been a large number of recruits from the area is unknown, but as was pointed out TN did provide a large number of Union regiments even without this area in Union control for most of the war.

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RE: First Impressions? - 6/12/2008 9:57:59 PM   
Pford

 

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Too early for a review. Have to say this is an intricate, deeply thought out project, complex but eventually manageable (I think). It's now apparent, I should have ordered the version with the hard copy manual.

The single most impressive aspect so far has to be the separate upstream/downstream movement rates for gunboats. Now that's detailing!

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