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I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China!

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! Page: [1]
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I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 12:29:31 AM   
skrewball


Posts: 294
Joined: 12/10/2000
From: Basrah, Iraq
Status: offline 		Ok, I just don't get it. I have been bombarding for weeks. Not to mention 300 IJA bombers doing Airfield and Ground attacks when the weather permits. I have 2 Eng Regs, 5 Construction Bns and I get results like this...

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 237137 troops, 829 guns, 158 vehicles, Assault Value = 4311

Defending force 146661 troops, 608 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4166

Japanese max assault: 4235 - adjusted assault: 1154

Allied max defense: 4193 - adjusted defense: 8133

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 9)


Japanese ground losses:
11015 casualties reported
Guns lost 46
Vehicles lost 9

Allied ground losses:
2921 casualties reported
Guns lost 61

Can someone outline something for me to do? I don't expect to win the war in China, but it would be nice to establish a line.



_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
Post #: 1
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 12:35:48 AM   
bjmorgan


Posts: 2904
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		Send in the marines.

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 2
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 12:41:37 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12510
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

Ok, I just don't get it. I have been bombarding for weeks. Not to mention 300 IJA bombers doing Airfield and Ground attacks when the weather permits. I have 2 Eng Regs, 5 Construction Bns and I get results like this...

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 237137 troops, 829 guns, 158 vehicles, Assault Value = 4311

Defending force 146661 troops, 608 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4166

Japanese max assault: 4235 - adjusted assault: 1154

Allied max defense: 4193 - adjusted defense: 8133

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 9)


Japanese ground losses:
11015 casualties reported
Guns lost 46
Vehicles lost 9

Allied ground losses:
2921 casualties reported
Guns lost 61

Can someone outline something for me to do? I don't expect to win the war in China, but it would be nice to establish a line.



Those results don't tell much. What's the supply level. Unit fatigue, diruption, moral. Are they prepped for the base they are attacking.

Not to mention level 9 forts!

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 3
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 12:48:38 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		Bomb the Chinese daily for a month, than bombard and bomb for another month, then attack.

(in reply to bjmorgan)
Post #: 4
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 1:07:25 AM   
Fishbed


Posts: 1620
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Maybe the Chinese are fully prepp'd for this place - it helps...

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 5
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 1:15:29 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12510
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		They are behind level 9 forts which is going to give them something like 200% AV boost.  For starters there aren't enough troops attacking.  A 1:1 raw AV won't be enough with level 9 forts.  What's more, even with lots of combat engineers to bring down the fort levels, which is possible even with 0:1 results, the attacker losses will be bad you won't be able to attack more than once per week.  bombing won't help much...like a mosquito bite to an elephant.  There's no quick solution here.  My recommendation

1. try to double your raw AV, by doubling the troops.
2. make sure you have combat engineers attacking.
3. make sure the assualt preparation numbers for your attacking troops is high.  At least over 50%.
4. supplies must be in the green, or you must add still more troops.
5. make sure disruption is low
6. make sure you are not short of support and that you have good HQs also prepped for the target
7. review the commanders of your corp HQs.  A good commander makes a world of difference.


_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 6
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 1:23:57 AM   
1EyedJacks


Posts: 1753
Joined: 3/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

Ok, I just don't get it. I have been bombarding for weeks. Not to mention 300 IJA bombers doing Airfield and Ground attacks when the weather permits. I have 2 Eng Regs, 5 Construction Bns and I get results like this...

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 237137 troops, 829 guns, 158 vehicles, Assault Value = 4311

Defending force 146661 troops, 608 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4166

Japanese max assault: 4235 - adjusted assault: 1154

Allied max defense: 4193 - adjusted defense: 8133

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 9)


Japanese ground losses:
11015 casualties reported
Guns lost 46
Vehicles lost 9

Allied ground losses:
2921 casualties reported
Guns lost 61

Can someone outline something for me to do? I don't expect to win the war in China, but it would be nice to establish a line.




Fort Level 9
City Hex is plus 2:1 - right?

It looks like this city has a lot of supplies... Bomb the airfield to soak up his supplies. During the battle screen it shows what units he has here... Is this all INF units or does he have some HQ and ENG units?

What is the level of prep for your LCUs?

Also, you mention ENG ENGR LCUs but how is the support level for your troops? Is it in the red or in the green.

How are your supplies? Do you have the supplies you need at a minimum? Do you have 2X supply needs (you'll get an attack bonus if you do).

Do you have any HQ units? An Army Corps HQ gives you a bonus. And having a Command HQ within 18 hexes will give you an additional bonus... An HQ unit should help draw supplies to your LCUs that are attacking.

If you can load up with 3+ ART units they'll help keep his moral down while your units recover.

Const Btns don't help you in combat...

In the must read section there is info on leaders and HQs that you might want to go over also.


_____________________________

"All right pilots - settle down! Hey - we are looking for a few test pilots for a new proto-type plane that is going to win the war for us! It's called the MXY-7 Cherry Blossom. Who wants to be the first to fly this sweet little bomb?"


(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 7
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 1:25:30 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2151
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline 		Any chance of a flanking move to cut off the enemy supply line?

(in reply to 1EyedJacks)
Post #: 8
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 7:20:33 AM   
Sheytan


Posts: 830
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		did you notice your adjusted assault value on that screenie? and look at his defensive value. You need more troops, you need to pay attention to the status of your units, are they disrupted heavily? you need to employ combined arms, use engineers to destroy the forts when you do launch your attack, but first! develop the battlefield, prep your units to attack that location if it is a base/city etc, insure you have more then enough supplies, click on your units to see thier supply state, add HQ units to the stack, corp/and higher level HQs give you added attack value if prepped, and also add support, bomb the objective with air, and if you have a preponderance of artillery units effect bombardment attacks to degrade the enemy prior to the assault.

dont forget the scale however, it can take quite some time to degrade and destroy a strongly entrenched enemy whom is well supplied.

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 9
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 9:09:27 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 11998
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

Ok, I just don't get it. I have been bombarding for weeks. Not to mention 300 IJA bombers doing Airfield and Ground attacks when the weather permits. I have 2 Eng Regs, 5 Construction Bns and I get results like this...

Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 237137 troops, 829 guns, 158 vehicles, Assault Value = 4311

Defending force 146661 troops, 608 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4166

Japanese max assault: 4235 - adjusted assault: 1154

Allied max defense: 4193 - adjusted defense: 8133

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 9)


Japanese ground losses:
11015 casualties reported
Guns lost 46
Vehicles lost 9

Allied ground losses:
2921 casualties reported
Guns lost 61

Can someone outline something for me to do? I don't expect to win the war in China, but it would be nice to establish a line.





first off, the construction battalions are worth nothing in combat, as the name says, they´re construction units so keep them away from your assault armies and let them build up bases. Eng are doing nothing in combat you need IJA eng squads.

You´re assaulting a base that has as many assault points than you have but they are sitting behind a Maginot Line like entrenchment. I have seen much more surprising results, this is perfectly fine with me. You can´t assault with 1:1 troop numbers such a fortification. Try to bypass it, with 4000 assault points in the base there can´t be another 4000 around it. Keep 2000 at the base (probably enough to hold the position) and have 1000 assault points each going in two directions around the base to encircle it. Then starve them.



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(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 10
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 2:03:50 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22515
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		Nanchang - i don't think is a city hex, but 9 forts is triple defense, if they are 100% prepped, they have another ~2x defense... if there is a Corps Level HQ and an Army level HQ in (double) range fully prepped, there could be up to another 2.4x or so multiplier, so you could be facing up to 14+x defense (not including morale, supply, disruption, and leader effects), plus any terrain bonuses (not sure there are any for Nanchang, but would depend on your map).

3 x 2 x 2.4 x additional bonuses = a lot... you should expect the results you have.

It took RUPD something like 2 years to successfully siege Chungking with 9 forts, but that is a city hex so was worse... in our PBEM it took about 3 months to take an isolated Singapore with 6 forts, and it only happened after a naval bombardment knocked out the AA guns so that bombers could have free reign in smacking the defenders.

Siege warfare is tough!



< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 6/6/2008 2:06:42 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 11
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 5:22:34 PM   
Bogo Mil

 

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline 		Your adjusted assault is ~ 1/4 of the max assault - very low. Do you have enough supplies, enough support, command HQs and low disruption? You will need all of these. Try to bring another HQ and make sure there are lots of supplies.

The defenders adjusted defense is less than twice the "max defense". They have 9 forts, so that's not very much. They are probably lacking supplies, too. Despite 0:1 odds they have higher losses than you, also a good sign for you. But you need more adjusted assault points for your force. If you are lower than 1/2 of the defender, your chances to bring down the forts are very low. Between 0.5:1 and 1:1 you have a fair chance but you still need some luck. If you manage 1:1 you always reduce a fort level.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 12
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 5:28:31 PM   
skrewball


Posts: 294
Joined: 12/10/2000
From: Basrah, Iraq
Status: offline 		See, that's just it...I thought I did it all right. I HAVE been bombing him daily for weeks. I've brought HQs, I have plenty of support. They are all 75+ prepped for Nanchang and not even the slightest anything out of the place. If I were to add anymore divisions, I'm just asking for it else where!

Bah...ground combat as a whole in this game is just so frustrating!


_____________________________

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 13
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 6:03:44 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 6166
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Honestly if you want to see any success taking well fortified Chinese bases, you are going to have to reduce the base through weeks or even months of aerial bombardments first.  In my game current against the AI I had to bombard Changsa for over a month to finally take it, and that was with nearly 3:1 odds in troop numbers.

Also, make no attempts to attack until all of your units have full supply levels.  If you attack with low supplies you are just going to cause yourself more disruption, fatigue and morale losses from very bad assaults like the one you have illustrated here.

Another thing, make sure you're supply lines are clear.  I don't know how much effect it has, but I did notice in my game that when I had enemy units in a hex adjacent to my roads/railways, I didn't supply nearly as quickly as I did after I ran off those units.

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aka- Akula

Larry Bond's Harpoon - Commander's Edition

Development Team Member

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 14
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 6:35:33 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2528
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline 		I'm in a somewhat similar situation. Since Dec 1941 I try to take Changsha (I'm in May 43 now), but my ground units do not fill-up with supplies when outside a Japanese base hex - in the countryside or in an enemy-held base hex, supply levels stay red - no attacks possible. Closest friendly base to Changhsa is Nanchang, which always has 20k supplies (big HQ located there and I ship supplies from the HI to Shanghai), and supply line is road. I even have hordes of transport planes flying from Shangai to drop supplies directly to my units at Changsha - no joy... I marched the entire army back to Nanchang once, let it fill-up with supplies and marched back to Changsha - one single attack left supplies levels in red, and they just do not recover...How do I bring suppliy levels up???  

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WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

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Post #: 15
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 7:38:05 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12510
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

See, that's just it...I thought I did it all right. I HAVE been bombing him daily for weeks. I've brought HQs, I have plenty of support. They are all 75+ prepped for Nanchang and not even the slightest anything out of the place. If I were to add anymore divisions, I'm just asking for it else where!

Bah...ground combat as a whole in this game is just so frustrating!


As your adjusted AV is low, clearly your units aren't as prepared as they should be. I suggest posting a couple of screen shots of your infantry units.

I hear your point about not having spare troops to send to the attack, but the simple fact is you don't have enough to pull off a straight up frontal assault. You have two choices, find more troops or long-term (possibly very long-term) siege.

Edit: if you post screen shots it would be most helpful to post ones taken just prior to an assault, not after.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 6/6/2008 7:39:09 PM >

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to skrewball)
Post #: 16
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 8:13:49 PM   
pbear

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Send in the marines.



That's already the problem, there are two old china marines in the defending hex.

(in reply to bjmorgan)
Post #: 17
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/6/2008 10:04:49 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 6166
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I'm in a somewhat similar situation. Since Dec 1941 I try to take Changsha (I'm in May 43 now), but my ground units do not fill-up with supplies when outside a Japanese base hex - in the countryside or in an enemy-held base hex, supply levels stay red - no attacks possible. Closest friendly base to Changhsa is Nanchang, which always has 20k supplies (big HQ located there and I ship supplies from the HI to Shanghai), and supply line is road. I even have hordes of transport planes flying from Shangai to drop supplies directly to my units at Changsha - no joy... I marched the entire army back to Nanchang once, let it fill-up with supplies and marched back to Changsha - one single attack left supplies levels in red, and they just do not recover...How do I bring suppliy levels up???  


Granted I'm only playing against the AI, but I did go ahead and take Kanshien first, once I did that then 'convinced' the troops thatt retreated from Kanshien to move to a hex that was not adjacent to my road line to Changsa, I have had no supply problems to there. I'm in April of 1941 and have captured Changsa (with all its industry completely destroyed...meh, no big deal really).

Like I said, I had to make every Chinese unit adjacent to the road and rail hexes move to actually get my assault force supplied though.

_____________________________

aka- Akula

Larry Bond's Harpoon - Commander's Edition

Development Team Member

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 18
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/7/2008 9:09:49 AM   
Rapunzel


Posts: 139
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Siege combat is a mess... . But it can be really rewarding.

Result of a month long siege in my pbem:


26.04.1943


Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 237637 troops, 883 guns, 168 vehicles, Assault Value = 3201

Defending force 119465 troops, 10 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 3400

Japanese max assault: 2895 - adjusted assault: 1115

Allied max defense: 3196 - adjusted defense: 197

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Honan base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
9361 casualties reported
Guns lost 8
Vehicles lost 10

Allied ground losses:
171864 casualties reported
Guns lost 41

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 19
RE: I'm losing my !@#$ing mind in China! - 6/7/2008 2:36:07 PM   
Grell

 

Posts: 1064
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		You hit the nail on the head.

Regards,

Greg

(in reply to Rapunzel)
Post #: 20
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