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RE: From little things, big things grow!

 
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RE: From little things, big things grow! - 6/5/2008 6:59:30 AM   
bardolph


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< Message edited by bardolph -- 6/5/2008 7:05:15 AM >

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RE: From little things, big things grow! - 6/5/2008 7:01:07 AM   
bardolph


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< Message edited by bardolph -- 6/5/2008 7:05:28 AM >

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RE: From little things, big things grow! - 6/5/2008 8:41:59 AM   
Rick

 

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Well, I'm no master map maker, but I actually thought Scene edit was pretty straightforward. Much Much easier to use than Blender, for example. Not sure I understood masks and layers and whatnot, but placing map objects seemed to work pretty well!

Of course, I only did one map edit (Balta), mainly to learn the tools, but I thought it scene edit worked pretty well.

Rick

(in reply to Stridor)
Post #: 33
RE: From little things, big things grow! - 6/5/2008 11:44:29 AM   
RyanCrierie


Posts: 1067
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Status: offline 		A suggestion for autogen of forests....

Can it be that you paint on a map with MSPaint; and for example:

x,x,x (random RGB color) paints a forest with trees about x distance from each other (Sparse)

and there are ten different RGB colors for increasing tree densities?

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Post #: 34
RE: From little things, big things grow! - 6/5/2008 11:59:20 AM   
Stridor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RyanCrierie

A suggestion for autogen of forests....

Can it be that you paint on a map with MSPaint; and for example:

x,x,x (random RGB color) paints a forest with trees about x distance from each other (Sparse)

and there are ten different RGB colors for increasing tree densities?


The game already as this in the form of the map.bmp which is the AI map which resides in each map directory.

This will be your master map, you will draw on this where the forests are, where the mashes are, where the roads are where the fields are etc. The map gen will then use this information along with the heightmap to the generate the actual map.

The game defines 4 levels (colours) of forest density with the option for more, but this is probably enough to start.


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Post #: 35
RE: From little things, big things grow! - 6/5/2008 8:01:53 PM   
z1812


Posts: 972
Joined: 9/1/2004
From: Toronto Ontario
Status: offline 		Hi Stridor,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stridor

The map maker can make maps greater than 1km x 1km and the PCK engine can render them. However the rules set which is also coded stipulates a 1kmx1km play area. This will change for the next game but not for PCK



I understood the following games would be backwards compatible to PCK as PCK was to PCOWS. Does that mean when the new game is released larger maps will be possible in PCK at that time?

regards John

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Post #: 36
RE: From little things, big things grow! - 6/6/2008 3:10:27 AM   
Capn Darwin


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Status: offline 		Great work.

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Post #: 37
Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 3:56:09 PM   
Stridor


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Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		Totally algorithmically generated Apart from the heightmap and 2D AI overview map (shown) no input required. Scene represents > 2000 trees. That would have taken days - weeks to do by hand.

The maths is migraine inducing! But now done Found a bug in IE7 which is not in IE6 to do with large arrays. That held me back about 6 hours!

Essentially I need to program a forest ecology now for the local attractors (so that forests look sensible)

You can select tree seasons, densities (in # trees / square meter) tree types, local attractors, etc. Each tree has a subtle variation that you could never have done by hand (like pitch / height / roll / yaw etc)

You can make the trees "plump" in summer and "lean" in winter.

The water is now much better than before as it now has computed depth texturing.

Given that forests were 90+% of the map work, I think it not unreasonable that a new map could be made in under an hour once you are up to speed on how it all works.

I still have to do lighting, skymaps + mask support other stuff but the main guts of it are done.

Enjoy

S.

P.S. It takes about 2 minutes for a fast rig to make the map. There are literally billions of calculations involved. I might be able to optimize it somewhat but I don't think that is a lot of time for a quality map!





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< Message edited by Stridor -- 6/6/2008 4:19:24 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Now ere's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 4:00:25 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		Phenomenal work, Stridor!

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Post #: 39
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 4:06:22 PM   
Stridor


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Status: offline 		Hopefully I can get this out to you guys soon.

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Post #: 40
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 6:17:36 PM   
Bil H


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From: Richmond Virginia
Status: offline 		Damn fine work John.  Can't wait to use your app to finish up my map, to tell the truth I am not having a lot of joy using the scene edit program, this is just in time.

Any chance you can add some random brush to heavy and medium forest areas?  Perhaps I ask for too much. 

Bil

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Post #: 41
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 9:31:55 PM   
Stridor


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Status: offline 		Sure, which brush models did you want in particular?

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Post #: 42
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 9:38:15 PM   
Bil H


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From: Richmond Virginia
Status: offline 		Hehe.. not sure, can you tie it in to the type of trees selected?

Just a random scattering beneath the trees, especially in heavy forest, a lesser amount in normal... none in light woods.

Bil

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Post #: 43
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 9:39:27 PM   
Stridor


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Status: offline 		I know that PCOWS had brush don't remember if PCK did, would probably need new textures to reuse the PCOWS brushes

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Post #: 44
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 10:09:05 PM   
Stridor


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Status: offline 		Bil,

It is funny

There are heaps of model / texture references to brushes and grasses in the game dlls, but all the models have been pulled, I guess for performance reasons???? May be Erik can get them back???? So unless you want to model some brushes and grasses for me to include, I don't have time right now to do that, so for the moment you will have to use the ground texture to convey "brushiness"

Sorry.

Perhaps someone else out there could do a low poly brush / grass pack (summer / winter). You can LOD these as well.

Regards

S.

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Post #: 45
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 10:30:54 PM   
Bil H


Posts: 1972
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From: Richmond Virginia
Status: offline 		No, that isn't funny. 

That's something we are going to have to address at a later time.  Thanks for looking.

Bil

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Post #: 46
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 10:40:15 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		Hm, I don't recall brush in Winterstorm either. As I recall it wasn't used for performance reasons, but should be pretty easy to put back in. Perhaps we should as Biffa for a few brush pieces? I agree that adding some brush and tall grass would make the maps much nicer.

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Post #: 47
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 11:06:21 PM   
Motomouse

 

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Motomice
Regards


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Post #: 48
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 11:09:19 PM   
Motomouse

 

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Status: offline 		Now what about some 3d trees,
2 Minutes per Frame anyone




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Post #: 49
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/6/2008 11:34:32 PM   
SAF_Biffa


Posts: 131
Joined: 4/16/2008
From: Wiltshire
Status: offline 		I can't wait to add some brush into these maps, corn rows, grass clumps, lillies etc, need to work out exactly how the masks work in PCK shouldn't take long. Currently I have a problem paying for a reg key for Milkshake3d, I've been trying for 4 days now...my mrs is buying it for my birthday but it is getting silly now.

I had a LOS, AI question I wanted to ask first before turning to creating the cover above. It's basically this, we get the ? as the player regards last known position, what does the AI get when there is a possibility that we are no longer there?

Are things like fences, trees, long grass, crops just there to look pretty and sometimes act as a defence (to hit) bonus or would they really add to our options to ambush the AI?

I would prefer to play with 'coins' off but not if the AI will get all the advantages. PVP works with coins off with lots of cover but single player probably won't, anyone know?

Anyway first thing is to fix this problem I have with Milkshape and the idiots at Share it!

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Post #: 50
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 4:12:53 AM   
Rick

 

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Status: offline 		This editor looks great Stridor. When this gets released there should be some more stir on other game forums. A map editor is a significant step forward!

Rick

(in reply to SAF_Biffa)
Post #: 51
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 4:16:30 AM   
Stridor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SAF_Biffa

I can't wait to add some brush into these maps, corn rows, grass clumps, lillies etc, need to work out exactly how the masks work in PCK shouldn't take long. Currently I have a problem paying for a reg key for Milkshake3d, I've been trying for 4 days now...my mrs is buying it for my birthday but it is getting silly now.

I had a LOS, AI question I wanted to ask first before turning to creating the cover above. It's basically this, we get the ? as the player regards last known position, what does the AI get when there is a possibility that we are no longer there?

Are things like fences, trees, long grass, crops just there to look pretty and sometimes act as a defence (to hit) bonus or would they really add to our options to ambush the AI?

I would prefer to play with 'coins' off but not if the AI will get all the advantages. PVP works with coins off with lots of cover but single player probably won't, anyone know?

Anyway first thing is to fix this problem I have with Milkshape and the idiots at Share it!


Sorry you are having this problem with MS3D! why don't you email the developer directly.

Bushes and grass would be pretty easy to do most of it is in the textures. Biffa you are definately the right man for this job however as your house work was/is outstanding. Esp textures. Any bushes or grasses you do I will include in the map maker. I look forward to it

quote:


Hm, I don't recall brush in Winterstorm either. As I recall it wasn't used for performance reasons, but should be pretty easy to put back in. Perhaps we should as Biffa for a few brush pieces? I agree that adding some brush and tall grass would make the maps much nicer.


Erik the dlls are FULL of references to stuff that don't actually exist (including brushes and grasses). They are selectable in ScenEdit also but of course they then crash scenedit when you try and use them which is frustrating. Either Kevin or myself should remove them I think (or better yet Biffa could make replacement models with the same name).

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Post #: 52
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 4:29:08 AM   
Rick

 

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Status: offline 		Would incorporating much brush into the terrain have the potential for creating "hull down" status too often? If I understand the sighting algorythm, a ground ray and a head-high ray are used and if the ground ray gets too many obstructions, target gets "hull down" status. This might cause too many shots to get "ground deflected" message.

Rick

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Post #: 53
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 9:34:32 AM   
Cougar_DK


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Status: offline 		John, this is truely awsome. 

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Post #: 54
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 11:28:52 AM   
SAF_Biffa


Posts: 131
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From: Wiltshire
Status: offline 		Once there is enough terrain we could replace almost everything though this may take time.

I'm guessing that the best option for grass and brush is to use the '#' design, I don't think it's billboard? I really know so little of the mechanics of this game atm.

Anyway this is starting to get really exciting nj.

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Post #: 55
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 1:45:57 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick
Would incorporating much brush into the terrain have the potential for creating "hull down" status too often? If I understand the sighting algorythm, a ground ray and a head-high ray are used and if the ground ray gets too many obstructions, target gets "hull down" status. This might cause too many shots to get "ground deflected" message.


As far as I know, it actually checks to see if it has hit the _ground_ for hull down status, so lots of brush or grass wouldn't interfere with that, though it could affect sighting.


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Post #: 56
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 5:47:42 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
As far as I know, it actually checks to see if it has hit the _ground_ for hull down status, so lots of brush or grass wouldn't interfere with that, though it could affect sighting.

What about the tree count? Somewhere Kevin said the LOS counts the number of tree planes it intersects. Would shrubbery be a tree intersection?

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Post #: 57
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 6:48:09 PM   
Rick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick
Would incorporating much brush into the terrain have the potential for creating "hull down" status too often? If I understand the sighting algorythm, a ground ray and a head-high ray are used and if the ground ray gets too many obstructions, target gets "hull down" status. This might cause too many shots to get "ground deflected" message.


As far as I know, it actually checks to see if it has hit the _ground_ for hull down status, so lots of brush or grass wouldn't interfere with that, though it could affect sighting.



To affect sighting is reasonable, since it uses the two rays, as long as it doesnt give the "hull - down" result.

Do stone walls give "hull-down" and should they?

Thanks
Rick

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Post #: 58
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 9:10:50 PM   
Mraah

 

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My understanding of how it works (as told to me from earlier posts) was if the underlying terrain map was showing "obstruction" or obstacle (red mark) then it looks at the 3D object lying on top ... remember the silo problem ... no red under the silo making it see-through.

Trees and other stuff just limits the LOS (should be in the manual explaining this) to a point.

Now, if you put a red mark under the tree or wall or whatever then it will block LOS fully. In the case of the wall it runs those 2 rays out and if it blocks the low ray and not the high ray then it's hull down. I don't know where the high ray originates but considering the animation tut Stridor wrote I'm thinking it reads it from the firingPoint01 location ... perhaps.

I remember all this because I drilled Erik and the team a few months ago asking why vehicles in woods didn't register as hull down ... my thinking was that a fully established forest would have so much debris on the ground you could probably achieve hull down.

I hope that helps ... just what I know.

Rob

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Post #: 59
RE: Now here's a pretty thing ... - 6/7/2008 9:31:29 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mraah
Trees and other stuff just limits the LOS (should be in the manual explaining this) to a point.

I know it uses the green on the underlying 2D file for the lion’s share of the sight obscuring factors. But there was some mention of the sides of the 3D tree models adding to this in some little way. Also, does the F12 ‘clear the trees’ affect sighting in any way now?

(in reply to Mraah)
Post #: 60
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