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Ammo Loadouts

 
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Ammo Loadouts - 4/30/2008 11:15:25 PM   
Romeo13

 

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I've been able to modify the types of ammo given to guns....

How do you modify the amount?

I've been playing around with HEAT rounds for late war tanks (what if scenarios) and they seem to run out after only a very few shots.

Does it have somthing to do with the order in which they are listed in the ammo section of the guns file?
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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 4/30/2008 11:26:17 PM   
thewood1

 

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Erik may step in and step all over my answer.

I think Mobius said they don't count rounds, but some kind of probability that they will run out.  Lind of like ASL.

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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 1:12:16 AM   
Redleg


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As the Russian side, I run out of ammo in my tanks regularly.  Especially the 20mm HE and 7.62 AP MG rounds.

This is due to trying to send the T60s after infantry units and A/Cs.  I can't keep them alive long enough against armor to run out of AP ammo.

Given the large number of turns in a lot of battles (at least for me), I would be reluctant to downsize the loadouts.



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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 2:06:49 AM   
Rick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Romeo13

I've been able to modify the types of ammo given to guns....

How do you modify the amount?

I've been playing around with HEAT rounds for late war tanks (what if scenarios) and they seem to run out after only a very few shots.

Does it have somthing to do with the order in which they are listed in the ammo section of the guns file?



I seem to recall reading somewhere that ammo wasn't tracked, but rather a probability of running out of ammo was used. But I looked at manual and didnt see whre it said that. I also looked at the Unit data layout and didn't see anything there either. So I could be wrong.

I know I had a Tank run out of ammor on, maybe the 2nd turn of one battle - I was pretty surprised (not complaining - "best laid plans" and all that).

Rick

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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 2:22:58 PM   
Grell

 

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It sounds like they are using a system similar to that of HPS games with ammo. Nothing wrong with it but it would be nice to re-supply when needed.

Regards,

Greg

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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 3:22:38 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hi all - yes, ammo status is determined based on probabilities by ammo type, with the more common types (AP, HE) very unlikely to run out early and some of the rare types (APCR, HEAT) possible to run out the same turn they are first used. While it's not a perfect system we felt is was a decent abstraction considerng the command level. We'd like to do this with a bit more "under the hood detail" in the future to allow "low ammo" as a third state in addition to the currenty binary situation.

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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 3:32:00 PM   
thewood1

 

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One thing that is odd is having a tank run out of ammo while its platoon mate still operating.  I would think that before a battle, a platoon commander would balance out the load out.

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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 4:38:53 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
One thing that is odd is having a tank run out of ammo while its platoon mate still operating.  I would think that before a battle, a platoon commander would balance out the load out.


I think in most cases they would, but it's the nature of the abstraction. You have to assume if that happens that they didn't balance the load out or that one tank fired a few more shots than the other or perhaps decided to have a different mix (i.e. more HE than AP or it didn't have much of the APCR, etc.).

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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 6:17:15 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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Is shell caliber taken into account ? A 37mm gunned tank (PzIII or 38) had 100+ shells, whereas a KV-2 only had 20 or so IIRC.
I don't quite get why ammo count should be outside of the game's scope - to the contrary, here we have each tank modeled and track every shot, ammo could be counted - it's not critical, but fits into the game imho.

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Post #: 9
RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 6:24:06 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
Is shell caliber taken into account ? A 37mm gunned tank (PzIII or 38) had 100+ shells, whereas a KV-2 only had 20 or so IIRC.
I don't quite get why ammo count should be outside of the game's scope - to the contrary, here we have each tank modeled and track every shot, ammo could be counted - it's not critical, but fits into the game imho.


Guys, I know you're all smart enough to rationalize these abstractions just as well as you can poke holes in them. It's the nature of an abstraction that it will not be precise, but if it's good enough then it works without adding to the player's information management. One of the keys in any game if you're aiming for "fun" is to not force the player to work too hard while allowing the player to see the results of his choices. That's why I'm so interested in finding out where we need to improve the interface, etc.

With all that said, I'm not against "bean counting" under the hood, I think it would improve realism, but it doesn't need to be at the player level for this scale. If we can just report "low ammo" or "ammo out" for each ammo type when the player wants to check, that's about right even if we know that there are 5 shells or 8 shells left.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 6:44:08 PM   
thewood1

 

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I just want to know so I can make good tactical decisions.  I don't want to put a tank in overwatch with 3 AP shells left.  If I did in RL, I would expect the TC to say, hey, I have low ammo.  I assume low ammo means they slow thier ROF or are choosier about their targets.

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Post #: 11
RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 6:56:21 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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Erik
I didn't say I wanted that the player could manage it, or even see it precisely - just that it's indeed simpler and more realistic to give a loadout to each tank and count beans, than rolling some dice with an unknown probability - which can give a KV-2 60 rounds that would never have fitted into the tank, with the player having no way to know when ammo is plentiful or becoming low (what a real commander should have an idea of).



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Post #: 12
RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 7:10:13 PM   
thewood1

 

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This thread reminds me of something that always annoyed about ASL was when you rolled dice and ran out of APCR or HEAT, you're opponent knew it.  The all the Panthers came out of the woodwork.  Gamey bastages.

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Post #: 13
RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 9:53:28 PM   
Rick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi all - yes, ammo status is determined based on probabilities by ammo type, with the more common types (AP, HE) very unlikely to run out early and some of the rare types (APCR, HEAT) possible to run out the same turn they are first used. While it's not a perfect system we felt is was a decent abstraction considerng the command level. We'd like to do this with a bit more "under the hood detail" in the future to allow "low ammo" as a third state in addition to the currenty binary situation.


Ah, - Yes "low ammo" might be a good idea - even at this level of command - having low ammo would be something that would impact on command decisions.

Also, any chance you'd make this configurable in scenario design tool for future releases (i.e. allow designer to set the probability by unit type) to reflect knowledge of larger supply issues that might impact this? Not trying to get into supply stuff - just that some battles were historically in a situation where supply was either abundant, or almost non-existent.

Thanks,
Rick

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 14
RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 9:54:47 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick
Also, any chance you'd make this configurable in scenario design tool for future releases (i.e. allow designer to set the probability by unit type) to reflect knowledge of larger supply issues that might impact this? Not trying to get into supply stuff - just that some battles were historically in a situation where supply was either abundant, or almost non-existent.


Yes, among the many things we'd like to do is to allow unit "states" to be part of a scenario design. For example, you could set up a tank that had already been immobilized, a squad that has already taken light casualties or an anti-tank gun with "low ammo". It's a tall order, but we'd like to get there.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Rick)
Post #: 15
RE: Ammo Loadouts - 5/1/2008 9:57:23 PM   
Rick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick
Also, any chance you'd make this configurable in scenario design tool for future releases (i.e. allow designer to set the probability by unit type) to reflect knowledge of larger supply issues that might impact this? Not trying to get into supply stuff - just that some battles were historically in a situation where supply was either abundant, or almost non-existent.


Yes, among the many things we'd like to do is to allow unit "states" to be part of a scenario design. For example, you could set up a tank that had already been immobilized, a squad that has already taken light casualties or an anti-tank gun with "low ammo". It's a tall order, but we'd like to get there.

Regards,

- Erik



Excellent - thanks!

Rick

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 16
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