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Our debt to Matrix Programmers

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Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/22/2008 3:44:02 PM

el cid again

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I was offered money again - for my work on RHS (Buck offered this before as well). I did some checking - and learned that NONE of the Matrix team working on AE "has ever been paid." In these circumstances I am unwilling to be paid either - and I want to post tribute to all that work being done for us.

Post #: 1

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/22/2008 4:02:29 PM

n01487477

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I applaud all those who are putting in their time, free of charge ... yet ... I cannot help but feel a little disillusioned, if in fact, they don't offer these hard working programmers, designers and consultants some remuneration or other benefits...

I know that most of us do things that are never paid, because we have a passion or desire to do something above that which is required, however if someone else is making money out of it, and we are going to pay for it ... come on ... be fair ...

Maybe it's the champagne socialist in me ... but Marx would roll in his grave and Adam Smith would rub his hands in glee ...

The rich get richer and the poor get the picture ... I hope you guys and gals are getting plenty of utility (happiness) out of your toil ...

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 4/22/2008 4:03:15 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 2

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/22/2008 4:41:30 PM

el cid again

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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As a devout follower of Adam Smith - I need to point out he was the head of the LIBERAL party - and his ideas actually work. The only sense in which he would rub his hands in glee is that this is not a coersive enterprise.

I don't think the fact no one has been paid means no one ever will be paid - IF there is money in the till. Remember - AE is not yet generating revenue - so perhaps "no one has ever been paid" should be put in that context. It does not mean no one ever will be paid.

There are also other kinds of pay. Working on WITP has benefited my professional reputation - and I know others who got jobs or assignments because of it.

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 3

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/22/2008 4:52:20 PM

n01487477

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That is what I meant by "benefits", all human activity it one of selfish endeavor, however, "The free hand" of economics was trialled and found to cause to many negative effects ... child labour / long working hours / large fluctuations in terms of boom and bust ... etc That is why all free enterprise is now haphazardly managed ... look at the newspaper to see it working well ...

Anyway, that is beside the point and I have no reason to debate you on semantics ... I just wanted to say that I hope they will ultimately receive some benefit, either personal satisfaction / cold cash, even Adam would have thought it right ..

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 4

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/22/2008 6:35:54 PM

Buck Beach

Posts: 1869
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Covina,CA,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I was offered money again - for my work on RHS (Buck offered this before as well). I did some checking - and learned that NONE of the Matrix team working on AE "has ever been paid." In these circumstances I am unwilling to be paid either - and I want to post tribute to all that work being done for us.

If I'm the Buck you are referring to, I don't recall offering you any money for your contributions. Couldn't check all of my previous posts. Having said that, your work certainly has value and deserving. I do recall saying some time back, it was too bad that we couldn't assist Cobra back when he was having computer problems. I think it would have been money well spent if we could have collectively helped.

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 5

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/23/2008 6:25:44 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3431
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

I applaud all those who are putting in their time, free of charge ... yet ... I cannot help but feel a little disillusioned, if in fact, they don't offer these hard working programmers, designers and consultants some remuneration or other benefits...

I know that most of us do things that are never paid, because we have a passion or desire to do something above that which is required, however if someone else is making money out of it, and we are going to pay for it ... come on ... be fair ...

Maybe it's the champagne socialist in me ... but Marx would roll in his grave and Adam Smith would rub his hands in glee ...

The rich get richer and the poor get the picture ... I hope you guys and gals are getting plenty of utility (happiness) out of your toil ...

Please don't feel disillusioned if AE team members aren't compensated. While I can't speak for everyone, this has been a very rewarding project for me. When I was asked to join the team, I did so without hesitation. I've had an opportunity to shape a game I love, albeit in a very minor way. And I would gladly do it again.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with your "rich get richer and the poor get poorer" analogy as related to this project. The original AE development team and all those since who have been invited to participate knew from that moment there would be no compensation yet we signed on anyhow. Why? Because without the Joes and the Dons and all the others that dreamed of making this game better, there would be no AE project, no improvement to the game and no hope whatsoever of a future WitP II And that, my friend would be a tragedy IMO.

So, for me, I am definitely richer for having worked on this project... even though I am definitely poorer for having purchased all those research books!

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 6

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/23/2008 6:42:19 AM

n01487477

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If they had asked me I would have jumped at the chance too, money or no money ... I guess I just wanted to make the point that even though people do what they love, such as volunteering etc ... (and I retract the statement, which was never meant for Matrix anyway, regarding "The rich get richer ...) ... I just wanted to make the point that companies generally (Not in this case albeit) should not ask/expect people to work for nothing....

I applaud all you people for getting into this and bringing us a new add-on ... my comments were not anti-Matrix or against you dedicated people ... I'm sorry if it seemed so... I could say, "If Matrix makes a large profit from it, I hope they reward you with some profit share or with your leave, into WITPII", but I wont ...

I have put in weeks of work to produce WitpTracker with Floyd, I did it for the love of it, I do not expect payment ...

I guess it was just a general comment on the erosion of working conditions for some WW...

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 4/23/2008 6:52:29 AM >

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 7

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/23/2008 8:59:58 AM

el cid again

Posts: 14601
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I was offered money again - for my work on RHS (Buck offered this before as well). I did some checking - and learned that NONE of the Matrix team working on AE "has ever been paid." In these circumstances I am unwilling to be paid either - and I want to post tribute to all that work being done for us.

If I'm the Buck you are referring to, I don't recall offering you any money for your contributions. Couldn't check all of my previous posts. Having said that, your work certainly has value and deserving. I do recall saying some time back, it was too bad that we couldn't assist Cobra back when he was having computer problems. I think it would have been money well spent if we could have collectively helped.

Well - the message I got this time said "buck" had done so before - and I remember someone did - but I thought it was someone else. I assumed the memory of the writer was better than mine. Regardless - it is the second time.

(in reply to Buck Beach)

Post #: 8

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/23/2008 9:07:37 AM

el cid again

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

That is what I meant by "benefits", all human activity it one of selfish endeavor, however, "The free hand" of economics was trialled and found to cause to many negative effects ... child labour / long working hours / large fluctuations in terms of boom and bust ... etc That is why all free enterprise is now haphazardly managed ... look at the newspaper to see it working well ...

Anyway, that is beside the point and I have no reason to debate you on semantics ... I just wanted to say that I hope they will ultimately receive some benefit, either personal satisfaction / cold cash, even Adam would have thought it right ..

I am a strong advocate of ethical and also legal standards in all things. And five years running a company did expose me to individuals who needed to be reminded of both. But the free market system is the most productive and creative of all time. Communism has failed utterly. Socialism has prooved less efficient - and in some cases in Europe - also able to accomondate policies which are clearly over the edge of real concern for human rights (I refer to euthenasia for people considered less desireable - and delay or denial of medical care if you are old or otherwise not valued). The vast majority of medical drugs and technology is developed in free market countries - managed development does not often work either in Japan or Europe. Lets not be too upset with a system that works - and that fosters a democratic process which permits changing the law itself. If we don't like something - we can change it - and where I live - this is routine: if we don't like the decisions of the legislature or even courts - we change them by referendum.

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 9

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/24/2008 5:36:00 AM

ChezDaJez

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From: Chehalis, WA
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quote:

I applaud all you people for getting into this and bringing us a new add-on ... my comments were not anti-Matrix or against you dedicated people ... I'm sorry if it seemed so... I could say, "If Matrix makes a large profit from it, I hope they reward you with some profit share or with your leave, into WITPII", but I wont ...

Actually, I didn't take your comment as anti-Matrix. Indeed I greatly appreciate the thought that you care enough to see hard work rewarded. But as I said, what I get out of it is payment enough.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 10

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/25/2008 2:27:20 AM

TulliusDetritus

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"I need to point out he was the head of the LIBERAL party" - El Cid Again

Adam Smith was a political economist, El Cid Again. Best known as the guy who wrote the "Capitalist Bible" on 1776: an Enquiry into the nature and causes of the wealth of nations. He was not the first one to develop these ideas though: William Petty did that before him. And for sure he was not the "head of the liberal party". He was an "intellectual" or philosopher, as you prefer.

EDIT: and not all of his ideas "work". Laissez-faire died almost 2 centuries ago... when the big companies appeared: the big fish eats the small one. "Laissez-faire" is totally useless here. It made only sense when all the companies were similar in size, capital, etc. Not to mention what happened on 1929... er... the last nail in the coffin of the laissez-faire doctrine.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 4/25/2008 2:45:49 AM >

_____________________________

"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 11

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/25/2008 2:47:12 AM

Terminus

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Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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And yet, it's still being used everywhere... Ever heard of Reaganomics?

_____________________________

There is no version of this where you come out on top - Tony Stark

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 12

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/25/2008 2:51:19 AM

TulliusDetritus

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Yes, Terminus.

Control the money supply to reduce inflation

One of its concepts... "Control" is just er... opposed to laissez-faire. Me point

1929 was a nasty lesson. They learned the hard way. No control at all is a pipe dream in real world.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 4/25/2008 2:52:38 AM >

_____________________________

"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 13

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/25/2008 4:33:29 AM

AW1Steve

Posts: 12007
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I was offered money again - for my work on RHS (Buck offered this before as well). I did some checking - and learned that NONE of the Matrix team working on AE "has ever been paid." In these circumstances I am unwilling to be paid either - and I want to post tribute to all that work being done for us.

I'm sorry that monetary compensationis not possible , but for whatever it's worth, you have the gratitute of those of us who enjoy WITP and will certainly relish AE. Thanks to you and all your selfless compatriots who have work on past, current and future projects of this line. You bring hours of pleasure and joy to so amny of us. Thank you.

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 14

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/25/2008 5:17:58 AM

Big B

Posts: 4031
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From: Behind the Orange Curtain
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Chez, you can speak for me

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
...
Please don't feel disillusioned if AE team members aren't compensated. While I can't speak for everyone, this has been a very rewarding project for me. When I was asked to join the team, I did so without hesitation. I've had an opportunity to shape a game I love, albeit in a very minor way. And I would gladly do it again.
...

_____________________________

https://sites.google.com/site/bigbsshipyard/home

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 15

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/25/2008 6:16:04 AM

Mike Scholl

Posts: 9349
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From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

I applaud all those who are putting in their time, free of charge ... yet ... I cannot help but feel a little disillusioned, if in fact, they don't offer these hard working programmers, designers and consultants some remuneration or other benefits...

I think the truth is that Matrix has nothing to offer "renumeration" with until the product is finished and actually sold. Hopefully at that point they will offer some of whatever profits there are to the people who did the work. So perhaps we should wait and see before being too critical.

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 16

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/26/2008 1:10:08 AM

el cid again

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"I need to point out he was the head of the LIBERAL party" - El Cid Again

Adam Smith was a political economist, El Cid Again. Best known as the guy who wrote the "Capitalist Bible" on 1776: an Enquiry into the nature and causes of the wealth of nations. He was not the first one to develop these ideas though: William Petty did that before him. And for sure he was not the "head of the liberal party". He was an "intellectual" or philosopher, as you prefer.

EDIT: and not all of his ideas "work". Laissez-faire died almost 2 centuries ago... when the big companies appeared: the big fish eats the small one. "Laissez-faire" is totally useless here. It made only sense when all the companies were similar in size, capital, etc. Not to mention what happened on 1929... er... the last nail in the coffin of the laissez-faire doctrine.

Ayn Rand (whose chief economist was Alan Greenspan - whose classes I attended) said that there never was a true laizzez faire test. What we have is technically faschism in economic theory - government regulated of privately owned means of production. Socialism is government ownership and management of the primary means of production - and it is woefully inefficient in all variations.

Smith wrote On Liberty - and it does seem to work. An interesting case in WITP is Manchukuo - where big companies (zaibatsu) were forbidden to go - so little enterprise could flourish. And it did that DURING the very great depression you referred to. Not that there need not be downturns - THAT one was caused by gross mismanagement of the economy of Europe post WWI. Germany could not afford the reparations, and other countries should not bet on gettting them: not much about capitalism there.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 17

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/26/2008 2:19:15 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Adam Smith merely understood what the primitive English capitalist class of the moment needed

To get rid of the many obstacles provoked by mercantilism: some exportations/importations prohibited, huge taxes, etc., etc. A concrete doctrine for a very concrete period. "Laissez-faire will always work because Adam Smith said so" is the most pure dogmatism... and false

1929 proved that "no control" is a suicide. And you can bet your ar** that they do know that. Reagan & Thatcher included... Survival instinct is quite developed...

Not trying to hijack the thread though. Apologies for doing that. Anyway, aren't all the AE people "volunteers" (except Matrix employees)?

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 4/26/2008 2:20:16 PM >

_____________________________

"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 18

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/26/2008 3:51:11 PM

goodboyladdie

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From: Ipswich, Suffolk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I was offered money again - for my work on RHS (Buck offered this before as well). I did some checking - and learned that NONE of the Matrix team working on AE "has ever been paid." In these circumstances I am unwilling to be paid either - and I want to post tribute to all that work being done for us.

If I'm the Buck you are referring to, I don't recall offering you any money for your contributions. Couldn't check all of my previous posts. Having said that, your work certainly has value and deserving. I do recall saying some time back, it was too bad that we couldn't assist Cobra back when he was having computer problems. I think it would have been money well spent if we could have collectively helped.

Well - the message I got this time said "buck" had done so before - and I remember someone did - but I thought it was someone else. I assumed the memory of the writer was better than mine. Regardless - it is the second time.

It was me, twice before, especially after I found you had paid a programmer to write some code.

_____________________________

Art by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to el cid again)

Post #: 19

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/26/2008 9:46:20 PM

Terminus

Posts: 39884
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Not trying to hijack the thread though. Apologies for doing that. Anyway, aren't all the AE people "volunteers" (except Matrix employees)?

Yes, we are. And there are no Matrix employees involved in making the game aside from Joe and Don...

_____________________________

There is no version of this where you come out on top - Tony Stark

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)

Post #: 20

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/27/2008 2:13:09 AM

ctangus

Posts: 2151
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From: Boston, Mass.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

I think the truth is that Matrix has nothing to offer "renumeration" with until the product is finished and actually sold.

I'm sure that must be the case. The prospect of AE has certainly generated a lot of excitement, but I'm sure it hasn't generated a dime in revenue yet. And I doubt Matrix has the capital to risk a lot solely on a wing and a prayer.

quote:

Hopefully at that point they will offer some of whatever profits there are to the people who did the work. So perhaps we should wait and see before being too critical.

I'm not privy to anything, but I'd bet that Matrix will - if they can - offer something. They seem to me to be both an honest & smart company. If AE makes a profit after overhead, etc. it would both be honest & smart to offer contributors like you some kind of remuneration.

Personally I'd be happy to know that a small portion of what I spend on AE is going to the guys who have been "volunteering" to help on it.

(in reply to Mike Scholl)

Post #: 21

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/27/2008 2:26:16 AM

Terminus

Posts: 39884
Joined: 4/23/2005
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There's exactly zero people on the project team that are doing this for any sort of monetary reward.

_____________________________

There is no version of this where you come out on top - Tony Stark

(in reply to ctangus)

Post #: 22

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/27/2008 2:38:10 AM

jwilkerson

Posts: 10228
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From: San Jose, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Not trying to hijack the thread though. Apologies for doing that. Anyway, aren't all the AE people "volunteers" (except Matrix employees)?

Yes, we are. And there are no Matrix employees involved in making the game aside from Joe and Don...

Well, that's not totally true, though who is a "Matrix Employee" or not could be debated. As we get closer, an ever increasing "bevy" of "real" Matrix folks have started helping us, I don't know which ones are "W-2" and which are "1099" and which are "neither", but more and more resources are getting involved. I think this is their standard practice as we work our way through the "game publishing" life cycle. Collectively, the "AE Team" are the "Developers" and Matrix supplies the "Publication" resources: Editors, Marketeers, Production Build Creators, Art, etc.

_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 23

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/27/2008 2:43:12 AM

Terminus

Posts: 39884
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: online

Well, okay... If you're going to be particular about it...

_____________________________

There is no version of this where you come out on top - Tony Stark

(in reply to jwilkerson)

Post #: 24

RE: Our debt to Matrix Programmers - 4/27/2008 3:19:02 AM

ctangus

Posts: 2151
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From: Boston, Mass.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

There's exactly zero people on the project team that are doing this for any sort of monetary reward.

I have no doubt that's true. I'm sure it's also a very enjoyable project to work on. And even if there is a monetary reward in the end, I'm sure it won't be a lot compared to the hours invested.

From my consumer point of view, however, I'm happy to pay fair value for a product I'll enjoy and thereby give a profit to the people who provide it. There's nothing wrong with making a buck if you're providing a good product. And AE looks like it will be an extremely good product.

In other words I'd still like to see a portion of the $50 (or whatever) I spend on AE go to everyone involved in developing it.

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 25

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