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Armament Production Question - 4/16/2008 5:05:02 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I am not entirely clear on the consumption of Armaments for IJA ground unit reinforcements.

I have read that the amount of Armaments expended from the pool is equal to the load cost of the unit on the reinforcement screen. For most divisions, that is about 950. Most base forces however have a listed load cost of over 4000, which seems counterintuitive, that a Base Force would cost more than a division. The manual indicates that replacements (but doesn't say about reinforcements), cost the load value of each unit, which for a total division would be about 22K.

So, how many Armaments are expended for reinforcements exactly?

Post #: 1
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/16/2008 5:13:45 PM   
Gem35


Posts: 3412
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		I don't think it is referring to load cost you are referring to.


Armaments Factories – These are the facilities that manufacture the weapons (such as field
guns and rifles) needed for ground units to fight. For armaments factories at a location to function
each day, there must be at least an equal number of heavy industry points in the pool. If this
requirement is met, the number of armaments factories are added to the armaments pool and this
number of heavy industry points are expended from the pool (at a rate of 6 heavy industry points
per armament point created).
When a non-vehicle weapon or squad is required to fill out or replace a ground unit element, 1
armament point and 1 manpower point will be expended from their pools for each load cost of the
unit (For example, a newly created SNLF squad will use up 13 armaments points and 13
manpower points and a newly created 70mm Howitzer will use up 8 armaments points and 8
manpower points).

< Message edited by Gem35 -- 4/16/2008 7:12:44 PM >

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 2
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/16/2008 7:11:32 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		It definitely isn't, because the load cost on the reinforcement screen for a Division is around 950, and we all know the AP load cost on that division is going to be in the 17K to 23K range, depending on Square or Triangle IJA Division.

So, for each division that is a reinforcement, how many Armament Points will draw from the pool?

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 3
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/16/2008 7:15:35 PM   
Gem35


Posts: 3412
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		I'm not really sure, maybe you take the LCU's TOE in the database editor and do the math?
I hav'ent messed around much with the Japanese Production system.
Others here should get you your answers better.

_____________________________

It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 4
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/16/2008 9:25:34 PM   
Tallyho!


Posts: 1120
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Somerset, England
Status: offline 		Ignore the figures shown on the reinforcement and unit screens.
The best way to calculate is (as Gem35 suggested) to check the TOE for number of squads/devices and use their load costs from the database.
For some reason I can't recall the reinforcement screen is in error regarding load cost, The unit screen figures are adjusted as per the table in section 6.1.19 of the manual (e.g. artillery on an AP are calculated at x3 the basic load cost, and Inf squads on AK are calculated at x6 the basic load cost).

The painful answer is to calculate it manually yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It definitely isn't, because the load cost on the reinforcement screen for a Division is around 950, and we all know the AP load cost on that division is going to be in the 17K to 23K range, depending on Square or Triangle IJA Division.

So, for each division that is a reinforcement, how many Armament Points will draw from the pool?


(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 5
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/16/2008 10:07:41 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5517
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Don't rack your head on this one. The unit in question will only pull if you are lucky 1 device of each per day. Takes roughly 4 months to fill out a Japanese base force that arrives at 50%. A division takes forever.

(in reply to Tallyho!)
Post #: 6
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 2:02:43 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		For the 47th Infantry Division of the IJA as Reinforcements:

447 IJA Inf x 17 = 7599
18 IJA Eng x 18 = 324
108 81 mm x 4 = 432
18 90 mm x 5 = 90
40 37mmat x 5 = 200
18 70mm x 8 = 144
36 75mminf x 6 = 216
24 75mm x 9 = 216
12 105mm x 12 = 144
27 eng x 20 = 540
618 support x 20 = 1236

This totals 11,141 Armament, and equal number of Manpower. I didn't include the tankettes, as those pull from Vehicle Pool.

DOES THIS SOUND APPROXIMATELY RIGHT? So, 100,000 armament will equip about 9 square divisions as reinforcements?

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 7
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 2:34:28 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4551
Joined: 2/21/2006
From: AE:96,160 @ 103,55
Status: offline 		This is the next big challenge I want to face with Floyd and my utility, WitpTracker. Looking at reinforcements, load costs and arm/veh production.

At present it can provide a history of how much HI and arm/veh points are used, but the next step is to realise how much of each will be needed to fill out a unit. Not so much in the maths, but because there is no accurate 1:1 correlation of how much a unit will fill out each turn. But maybe I can provide an estimate of how much it will take, supply/veh/arm permitting.

Many players turn off reinforcements until they are needed, and then turn on individual units... Anyway if you want to look at the util it's here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1774229

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 8
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 2:42:33 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2151
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline 		I did some testing on this (armaments cost of replacements) a couple months ago and mostly, I think, figured out how it worked. I posted my results here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1697507

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 9
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 2:49:09 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4551
Joined: 2/21/2006
From: AE:96,160 @ 103,55
Status: offline 		Thanks, I'll have a close look at it and see if I can roll it out sometime with a subsequent build ...

(in reply to ctangus)
Post #: 10
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 4:24:15 AM   
USS America


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Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus

I did some testing on this (armaments cost of replacements) a couple months ago and mostly, I think, figured out how it worked. I posted my results here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1697507


I thought I remembered that discussion, and after reading that thread, it's because I posted in it. I did not, however, read it after I posted, and completely missed the results of ctangus' excellent research! Well done, my friend!

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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Post #: 11
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 4:36:09 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		The key in that test was the 1 arm pt. per infantry or support squad; if that does INDEED happen, then an IJA division costs closer to 4000 than 11000.

I'm going to turn off factories, wait for a big group of reinforcements, and count the expenditure, because this is not clear at all.

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 12
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 5:33:52 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2151
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus

I did some testing on this (armaments cost of replacements) a couple months ago and mostly, I think, figured out how it worked. I posted my results here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1697507


I thought I remembered that discussion, and after reading that thread, it's because I posted in it. I did not, however, read it after I posted, and completely missed the results of ctangus' excellent research! Well done, my friend!


Thanks Mike! BTW, the bill for my excellent research is on the way...

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 13
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 5:40:05 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2151
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The key in that test was the 1 arm pt. per infantry or support squad; if that does INDEED happen, then an IJA division costs closer to 4000 than 11000.

I'm going to turn off factories, wait for a big group of reinforcements, and count the expenditure, because this is not clear at all.


The 1 arm pt per inf or support squad does seem to be the case (at least to me). Though admittedly my sample size was small. I'd be interested to see your results however they come out.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 14
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/17/2008 6:24:34 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I'll dig this up and post, in about 10 actual days I should have a big reinforcement of 7 or 8 divisions to test it with

(in reply to ctangus)
Post #: 15
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/18/2008 4:52:34 PM   
Czert

 

Posts: 255
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline 		I have two questions :
1. merchant shipyard points - They are used for what  (production)?   I asume naval are used for building of new ships.
2. and if spend many heavy industry points on expanding (q.e only 200 will remain istead of 2000) - this mean I will have much lower production ? (vehicle, armament, planes, engines, ships) ?

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 16
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/18/2008 4:59:20 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4551
Joined: 2/21/2006
From: AE:96,160 @ 103,55
Status: offline 		Naval build points are for SS,CV,CVL,BB,DD,CL

Merchant for CVE,AR,AV,(all aux),CS,AS,AO,TK,MSW,AK,AP.

So below (WITPTracker) shows ship durability, which equals ship build points
A ship is ready to build if delay < (durability * 10)
Accelerating ships costs its original points + 2* original points. So a DD normal = 22 ;accelerated = 66
In the example below showing Naval Build, when the points = factory, then the ship doesn't build, that turn
As surplus points accumulate in subsequent turns, the ship may build




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 4/18/2008 5:06:22 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/28/2008 3:00:22 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		OK,so I turned off all Armament Factories, and waited for a specific reinforcement. The 63rd IJA division, a "traingle" division (330 AV, and 303 IJA INf Sqds at the top), cost no more than 1,711 Armament Points, the exact amount my pool dropped during this reinforcement.

If a Triangle Division costs about 1,700 points, then it stands to reason a Square Division will be approx. 2,500 points. (as a Triangle is about 2/3 the AV of a Square).

In 5 days, I will receive 6 Square Divisions, 4 Triangle, and about 400 AV of other units, plus 1 HQ. If consistent with Result #1, this should equal about 24,500 armanent points. Let's see if I am right, posting in about 3 actual days.

This number of Armanent Points is less than I would have expected to spend on a division.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 18
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/28/2008 4:14:47 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 13698
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

OK,so I turned off all Armament Factories, and waited for a specific reinforcement. The 63rd IJA division, a "traingle" division (330 AV, and 303 IJA INf Sqds at the top), cost no more than 1,711 Armament Points, the exact amount my pool dropped during this reinforcement.

If a Triangle Division costs about 1,700 points, then it stands to reason a Square Division will be approx. 2,500 points. (as a Triangle is about 2/3 the AV of a Square).

In 5 days, I will receive 6 Square Divisions, 4 Triangle, and about 400 AV of other units, plus 1 HQ. If consistent with Result #1, this should equal about 24,500 armanent points. Let's see if I am right, posting in about 3 actual days.

This number of Armanent Points is less than I would have expected to spend on a division.


That's very interesting. Can't wait to see what happens when you get all those reinforcements. By the way, what's the date? That's an awful lot of stuff on one day.

_____________________________


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Post #: 19
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/28/2008 10:09:25 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		(HEMAJOR, DON'T READ!!!!)

Mike, in answer to your question, it is 6/11/43, and in Big B's mod, on 6/15/43, the IJA gets the following on ONE day....

6 Full Divisions: 30,42,43,46,47,1st Guard
3 Triangle Divisions: 62,64,65
1 Mixed Bde: 51st (same size as Triangle Division!)
1st Amphib. Bde (127 AV)
3 Mixed Regts: 9,11,12 (99 AV Each)
1 Nav Gd (90th)
1 Army HQ Unit

A huge reinforcement, so I am tracking what it's going to cost. Initial estimate about 25K, based on cost of 63rd Division 2 days ago.

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Post #: 20
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/28/2008 10:24:23 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5266
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ctangus

I did some testing on this (armaments cost of replacements) a couple months ago and mostly, I think, figured out how it worked. I posted my results here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1697507


And in regards to this, Yakface's experience is pretty close to what I am predicting. He went a bit farther into the pools but overall it seems that you don't pay much for IJA Reinforcements. (Though a bit more than the Load Cost on the Reinforcement Screen).

(in reply to ctangus)
Post #: 21
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/29/2008 2:01:05 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9735
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Knoxville
Status: offline

< Message edited by treespider -- 4/29/2008 2:43:14 AM >

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

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Post #: 22
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/29/2008 12:22:20 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4551
Joined: 2/21/2006
From: AE:96,160 @ 103,55
Status: offline 		My testing so far in a closed economy. No unit reinforcements...

1st NLF



So as you can see, snlf + support have a 1:1 relationship
and army weapons are related to their actual load cost.
So Total Points used out of Arm = 78

LoadCost Total is the AP load cost to transport the unit.
The Manpower Cost is equal to the LoadCost Total.


I have found some anomalies, when there is not enough points, the unit is still built at a reduced rate, with no cost in armament points ... I have to check other variables, but I'll post as I go ...





Also just wanted to say that "mostly" the load cost in the Info panel, relates to the TOE unit number in the Database ... but I will look at this more closely too ...

Just done a bit more testing and

Engineers and AV support cost nothing
All squads cost their number
DP, AA & Army Guns cost their number * load cost.
All AFV(armour) cost their number * load cost.

Now to test, with reinforcements on ... then make a panel for witpTracker...
---- Damian -------

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 4/29/2008 3:14:13 PM >

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 23
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/29/2008 3:08:09 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9735
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Knoxville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

My testing so far in a closed economy. No unit reinforcements...

1st NLF



So as you can see, snlf + support have a 1:1 relationship
and army weapons are related to their actual load cost.
So Total Points used out of Arm = 78

LoadCost Total is the AP load cost to transport the unit.


I have found some anomalies, when there is not enough points, the unit is still built at a reduced rate, with no cost in armament points ... I have to check other variables, but I'll post as I go ...





Also just wanted to say that "mostly" the load cost in the Info panel, relates to the TOE unit number in the Database ... but I will look at this more closely too ...

Just done a bit more testing and

Engineers and AV support cost nothing
All squads cost their number
DP, AA & Army Guns cost their number * load cost.
All AFV(armour) cost their number * load cost.

Now to test, with reinforcements on ... then make a panel for witpTracker...
---- Damian -------


You're testing confirms Ctangus earlier tests...a link to which he provided earlier in this thread.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 24
RE: Armament Production Question - 4/29/2008 3:21:12 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4551
Joined: 2/21/2006
From: AE:96,160 @ 103,55
Status: offline 		Yes, I realise I was reconfirming some old data, which I always like to do anyway, I guess my real point here is that the loadcost shown on the in-game info panel, can often be incorrect.

It often relates to the TOE unit number in the DB, also when there are no points available, units can still build with no cost, at a reduced number of elements.

I guess because I'm going to incorporate it into WitpTracker, I just want others to verify that my results are infact, correct. And I'm not off track.

I'm still testing, but I believe that there are anomalies to to uncover.

What I seem to be finding is that if there are enough Points, the unit will enter at full strength, if not, then there seems to be freebie's in the system, and the Points are skewed .. or maybe it's just late here ... will keep testing tomorrow, for more definitive answers...
Cheers

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 4/29/2008 4:46:25 PM >

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 25
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